mum24dog Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 No, I'm suggesting that it takes more than sitting at a keyboard making judgements. I care but the only influence I can have on anyone is to prove that a recognisable working bred dog can be successful in agility but in reality it will go unnoticed if there are not others with the same affix doing the same. And there are lots of unbranded working bred dogs here doing it anyway. I can't claim that my dog is of superior working quality though because I have no idea. None is going to say "Wow, I've been wrong all these years" on the basis of any opinion of mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Dear Doggers, While none of us are King of the Jungle, I believe that quietly insisting on the truth, over time and over and over. never forgetting that listeners made never have heard it, may hold ill considered opinions or be indifferent to the issues you and I hold important can - over time - influence the general culture. The happy term "Barbie Collie" didn't exist until Colin Campbell coined it during the dogs wars. The "Most Intelligent Dog" danger was overcome by "For most people, Border Collies don't make good pets", and the ability of the AKC to ruin the Border Collie, as it has so many other breeds, was stymied by the steady resistence of Border Collie owners, shepherds, agility people,SAR trainers, obedience trainers and those on this list. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 The question was asked, "how is it any different (for preserving the working ability of our breed) to breed for winning performance at stockdog trials vs breeding for show or agility?" Generally speaking, "Red", "Orange", and "Yellow" dogs are better for the working gene pool than "yellow" & "white" dogs (see Denise Wall's dartboard analogy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 You can care but you can't do anything about it if you aren't involved. Well, I disagree with this. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "involved". I don't breed border collies or any other dogs. I don't trial my dogs nor do I have sheep or other livestock. My dogs came from rescue (although they appear to be working-bred dogs as best I can tell). I am a volunteer for border collie rescue, but I don't know if that qualifies me as "involved". But I do firmly believe that things change in the world of human beings because human consciousness changes, and that happens one person at a time. Small efforts should not be belittled; they are meaningful. Laws don't change people's minds, but experience does, and other people can influence people to change their minds. Every time that I get the chance, I explain the best I can why border collies should only be bred for working qualities, and I do my best to influence people's choices when they are considering getting a border collie. Most people will come around if they simply understand the reasons for it. Ignorance is not a character defect, and is cured by education. I was ignorant until people on this board took the time and energy to educate me thoroughly. I may not have changed the world by educating a few people here and there, by being the reason they chose to get a rescue dog instead of going to a Barbie breeder, just as I didn't save the world by taking in one and then one more and then one more foster dog. But I made a difference to those dogs; I made a difference to that person. Maybe that person will tell another person. This is how change happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 what struck me when I read this?"The "Most Intelligent Dog" danger was overcome by "For most people, Border Collies don't make good pets", " that "for most people, border collies don't make good pets" was overcome by people breeding them specifically to be pets, so to me "most intelligent dog" has now evolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 What D'Elle said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I wonder how long the most intelligent dog status will be maintained with people breeding specifically for pets (no selection based upon testing intelligence) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 hard to say, it's all give and take, but in truth, if all the other breeds are suffering from the same pet bred demise the "best of the worst" will still be the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 also how much of "intelligence" is in truth trainability? When the dogs are deemed intelligent is it based on IQ or what they can be taught to do so that they appear to have a high IQ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I wonder how long the most intelligent dog status will be maintained with people breeding specifically for pets (no selection based upon testing intelligence) Well, unless Coren revises his list, I suspect it'll stick for a while at least. The dogs would have to become pretty unbiddable for that to happen, I'd think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 also how much of "intelligence" is in truth trainability? Coren addresses this in the book where he first offered the ranking. He acknowledges that there are different types of intelligence and that many hard-to-train breeds are quite intelligent but simply not interested in being trained or biddable. So it does seem that the ranking have a lot to do with ease of training and willingness to work for humans in the practical sense, and IIRC, he acknowledges that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borasaurus Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Yea, I always saw that list as more of a test of biddability<--the forum spellcheck doesn't think this is a word . My neighbors' dog might not necessarily listen to them, but he figured out how to open door handles with his paw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Well, I disagree with this. Of course, it depends on what you mean by "involved". I don't breed border collies or any other dogs. I don't trial my dogs nor do I have sheep or other livestock. My dogs came from rescue (although they appear to be working-bred dogs as best I can tell). I am a volunteer for border collie rescue, but I don't know if that qualifies me as "involved". But I do firmly believe that things change in the world of human beings because human consciousness changes, and that happens one person at a time. Small efforts should not be belittled; they are meaningful. Laws don't change people's minds, but experience does, and other people can influence people to change their minds. Every time that I get the chance, I explain the best I can why border collies should only be bred for working qualities, and I do my best to influence people's choices when they are considering getting a border collie. Most people will come around if they simply understand the reasons for it. Ignorance is not a character defect, and is cured by education. I was ignorant until people on this board took the time and energy to educate me thoroughly. I may not have changed the world by educating a few people here and there, by being the reason they chose to get a rescue dog instead of going to a Barbie breeder, just as I didn't save the world by taking in one and then one more and then one more foster dog. But I made a difference to those dogs; I made a difference to that person. Maybe that person will tell another person. This is how change happens. Not what Pam's OP was asking though, which was whether breeding for trials is affecting the breed in the way breeding for sports is doing? Not having any first hand experience of working dogs I am not in a position to judge. I know what people say, and I value the opinion of some of them, but I can't know how true it is. On this particular subject how can I attempt to educate anyone on the basis of hearsay? I stick to what I know, which is that perfectly good dogs for sports or other purposes can be found without breeding for that purpose. If I start expounding on the relative merits of different types of working dogs the deficiencies in my knowledge are soon going to become apparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Dear Doggers, Ms. Mum is obviously right that "perfectly good dogs for sports or other purposes can be found without breeding for that purpose." but there are limitations. If you want a sack dog, many breeds and crossbreeds won't fit in the sack. I've read most of the early printed material on Border Collies and spent instructive evenings with Barbara Carpenter who knew the breed as well as anyone. My opinion (educated but an opinion) is that there've been at least some sheepdogs as good as the best we have today perhaps since Samuel Pepy's report and certainly since James Hogg's. When sheepdog trials became very important in the early 20th century they acted as a fairly crude winnowing device; the dogs trials rejected were probably more important than those trials rewarded. Trials have culled and raised the average. They've also homogenized Border Collie abilities and driven other more narrowly useful sheepdogs to entire extinction or extinction via the show ring. By much luck and more pragmatism, trials have been an unusually succesful genetic tool. Most (90%) of working bred dogs can become adequate if not outstanding farm dogs. This although the genes for important traits (heading, bidability, crouch, eye) are (probably) far apart on the genome (They can inherit seperately). That their athleticity and bidability have made them suited for many modern dog sports is a happy accident but they wouldn't make good sack dogs. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted March 20, 2015 Report Share Posted March 20, 2015 Yes, of course there are limitations. In referring to "other purposes" I meant other purposes than work. What's a sack dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Not having any first hand experience of working dogs I am not in a position to judge. I know what people say, and I value the opinion of some of them, but I can't know how true it is. On this particular subject how can I attempt to educate anyone on the basis of hearsay? This sounds rather like someone saying that since they're not involved in politics and/or know the candidates personally, they can't have an opinion about a candidate and therefore shouldn't vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I believe a sack dog is a little dog that will fit in a purse or similar sized bag/sack. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Dear Doggers, A sack dog is the small terrier the hunt master slung over his horse's neck so it could go in the den and kill the fox after it went to ground. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 This sounds rather like someone saying that since they're not involved in politics and/or know the candidates personally, they can't have an opinion about a candidate and therefore shouldn't vote. People form ill informed opinions all the time but it doesn't mean they should. I'm not sure why you should have an objection to the principle of recognising what one doesn't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Thank you Mr McCaig - you live and learn. When I googled it all I got was ads for dog beds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 I don't have a problem with admitting what I don't know. I just don't agree that you have to be "involved" in something in the sense of being an active participant to be able to make informed decisions. I guess that's where we differ, and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 Sometimes you need to be an active participant to be able to make informed decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Sometimes you need to be an active participant to be able to make informed decisions. I can only speak for myself, and I find in the case of making informed decisions about working stock dogs this was certainly true. And I meet a lot of people who hold all kinds of (often blatantly wrong) opinions about stock dogs, simply because they don´t own and work border collies themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 So there's absolutely no point in our trying to educate using this logic. Pity the poor newbie who has no hope of ever making a good decision, ever. We may as well give up the fight now. I despair . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 Actually (and without the sarcasm), that is exactly what happens when you try to educate people who only have experience with dogs as pets (or show/sport animals). You will notice there is no frame of reference at all. And why despair? I never understood why we should be depended on the opinion of people who don´t work their dogs. If the working dog world cannot "hold up its own trousers" as we say in the Netherlands, the working dog will disappear. Simple as that. Show pet or sport dog people have nothing to do with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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