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An innovative approach to puppy mills


Donald McCaig
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I have two rescue dogs that did very well in my work.

 

However I have bred for my own work. Though the selling of dogs is very hard for me.

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The world is strange now.

It is not the livestock.....but the dogs that make $?

 

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One thing I will add, I have made friends with a lot of people some are very nice some are not. I was taught to look at motivation to figure things out.

What is the motivation. It is then you will figure out what the deal is.

Then I guess you check to see if the motivation is being fulfilled. If it is a selfish motivation that's causes harm or sadness then....well don't go that way.

If it is a kindly motivation that brings good things...then go that way.

 

 

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Sue you have tremendous common sense. Thanks.

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I have been reading this thread and thinking quite a bit about where I started and the 16 years since my first dog. I had sheep first and bought my first pup having never seen a dog "work" but having lots of dog experience and raised sheep for 5/6 years. The pup was bought off a local dairy farm and was to help with my sheep. He did help but it was nothing like my dogs now. I am sure partly because my dogs now are good working stock from good working stock but also because I knew Nothing about how to help the pup figure things out.

 

I get calls monthly from Livestock producers interested in herding dogs. Some come watch my dogs work, some I help with their dog or point them in a good direction, some we talk about things on the phone, some I never hear from again. I do wonder if we had a conversation about how to best educate the public and more importantly the livestock producers in this country about working border collies if that would be a more productive avenue. It is up to those of us who depend daily on the work and instinct of these amazing dogs to educate people and preserve the ability of the dogs. I think trying to dictate to others what they should do with their dogs is not very productive, educating them how quickly working bred border collies can lose those instincts when they are not selected for would seem the way to go. If indeed people who do not use border collies for herding but want them for other things knew how quickly those special qualities that make them unique can be lost they could easily be spokespeople for us and the working border collie.

 

Preserving the working tradition is going to take a lot more than a registry and a small group of people, especially as our country gets further away from the farm and ranches.

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Regardless, I see the list as an aid for someone unfamiliar with the breed to help make a decision when purchasing a pup. ....

 

 

But see, how many new to border collies even know about the ABCA, let alone know they have a website with a list? That's why so many start off with AKC dogs - the AKC is highly visible, easy to find and they bill themselves as the gold standard for dog breeds. Otherwise, the most common complaint among newcomers is that they don't know where to look or how to start. They may not know an alternate breed registry even exists.

 

This is more my view, as per helping newcomers. From Sue:

 

What you can do is find a mentor, someone you can learn from and trust. Volunteer and meet people. Do your own research. Check out websites. Check out information sources. Ask around. Be patient. Be open-minded and willing to listen. Figure out who you want to deal with, consider all the red flags and decide what is important to you (what are deal-breakers, what are not), and do your own personal best to support good and responsible breeders.

 

If a newcomer is doing their research, more than visiting a website they should hopefully meet some people in the working end of the breed and go that route.

 

After all, when one starts looking into prominent bloodlines, look who comes up: big name UK breeders like Derek Scrimgeour and Kevin Evans, who turn out tons of pups a year. Is anyone red-flagging their dogs? Not that I've seen, but the ABCA would darned sure put those guys on that list, if they were in the US.

 

So, anyhow. Still very unsure that this list is going to be much more effective than preaching to the choir ...

 

Everyone's mileage may vary.

 

~ Gloria

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I believe in the UK / ISDS registry limits how many litters a bitch can have that are registered. If I remember correctly it was 5 in her lifetime. The feeling was it would allow that bitch to grow up and be proven. Have not spoken to anyone from the UK in several years so it have changed.

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Sue's whole post bears repeating, but for me this part truly resonated. I, too, have seen and heard from eyewitnesses and it's just mind boggling that the working dog community doesn't step up and police our own, but that's another thread I suppose.

 

J.

 

You know, just because someone wins a really big trial (or trials), has a big hat and is well known among the community, or is even considered a "top hand" doesn't necessarily mean that person is a good person or a person I'd want to do business with. I've heard some real horror stories from eyewitnesses about a few individuals, read some chilling (to me) things on some folks' own websites, and come to the conclusion that there are all sorts of people you don't want to be involved with, no matter how they look "on paper". And I am *not* referring to anyone mentioned in this topic or anyone on the list.

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The ABCA is a voluntary club. It is a brand, if you will, and they are in the process of trying to protect and ensure the quality of their product. This is on an individual dog basis (how dogs' needs are being met in a breeding operation) and on a population genetics basis (falsifying papers, breeding for things other than work, etc). That's hard to find a happy medium between those perspectives. There will be breeders who have minimal litters and give their dogs the best care possible, saying "look at all my genetic testing, socialization, fancy facilities, and premium food: obviously I am producing high quality dogs!" But is their product what ABCA finds acceptable as far as a true (i.e. Working) border collie? And conversely there will be breeders who are churning out a large volume of puppies and say "we have such a small gene pool, we have to keep breeding dogs with good pedigrees to keep genetic diversity and keep the breed going!" But if their individual dogs are seen as a number and not an individual, are they keeping dogs the way that ABCA finds acceptable for meeting the needs and/or not exploiting an individual dog?

 

No, I don't think that the ABCA should set tight requirements for breeding and registering. First, how would we all agree? And secondly how would it be enforced? That's where their mission statements, codes of ethics, and recommendations come in to play. If you do not approve of what they stand for, that's OK! But why is it ABCA's fault? You do have options: you can continue to support them by registering pups, but in that case it seems silly to complain about participating in a voluntary registry. Instead, you can stand up for your product and educate others about why you are operating the way you are. You can change your breeding practices in order to be seen in a more positive light by the ABCA and gain their endorsement. You can start your own registry, as has been done by those unhappy with ABCA in the past (i.e. Expelled). You can sell unregistered pups. At the end of the day, if you are producing what you intend to, whatever version of a border collie that may be, then you should be able to find internal satisfaction at a job well done, and therefore shouldn't need ABCA's stamp of approval.

 

Another thing I'd like to bring up for discussion: if you are breeding 100 pups a year and a large number of them are being sold to non-working homes, how do you know that you are indeed producing a good product? How do you know that your cross was successful? It's easy to put together two dogs with nice pedigrees (classic situation for high volume breeders), but if very few of them are trained enough to get a good idea of what they are made of, how do you know you've done a service to the breed? If those pups are spayed/neutered or not bred, as would be the case in many non-working homes, the genetic line ends right there, so the "keeping the gene pool open" argument becomes a moot point. Or, if those pups with nice pedigrees but unknown talent do get bred, the original breeder has not done anything to contribute to the working gene pool because those pups could be complete failures. At the best they would be considered unknowns, so how could you find a proper mate to complement characteristics that are yet unseen?

 

Of course non-working owners are entitled to and even encouraged to buy from a working breeder! But if lots of the product is untested or never makes it out of the training field, my opinion would be that the breeder should not be producing those pups and should, for the good of the breed, help the puppy buyer locate another suitable litter. If there is more demand, then the infrequent breeders of quality dogs could breed an occasional extra litter, and since the majority of those pups are being trained out, the success of the cross can be evaluated and the line can be continued in an appropriate way. In that situation everyone wins: puppy buyers get a well-bred dog to be used in whatever way they want, and the breed does not suffer genetic quality or quantity (diversity).

 

Last thing: I see high volume breeding as the equivalent of factory farming. Are the products always inferior? Of course not. Is it worthwhile to do some more research to see if you agree with the conditions of the animals? I think so. And at the end of the day, you are free to buy what you want. This is the Information Age. Consumers want and often expect full disclosure. The ABCA is making moves to help the consumer. It will be a process that combines objective facts as well as educational opportunities. It looks like an uphill battle, but in my opinion, it is very promising to see that the challenge is being undertaken.

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After all, when one starts looking into prominent bloodlines, look who comes up: big name UK breeders like Derek Scrimgeour and Kevin Evans, who turn out tons of pups a year. Is anyone red-flagging their dogs? Not that I've seen, but the ABCA would darned sure put those guys on that list, if they were in the US.

 

 

I have been wondering about this as I have been reading through this thread.

I know these pages are not produced by ISDS but the source material is and one of the names at the top of the list is a breeder that is heavily frowned upon and the other is mentioned above. In the past this would have been very hypothetical but in my hunt for a well bred dog to bring back to Mallorca some of the names on these lists have come up in my search and I have been pondering the ethics of volume breeding.

http://www.bcdb.info/breeders.htm

http://www.bcdb.info/dealers.htm

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I believe in the UK / ISDS registry limits how many litters a bitch can have that are registered. If I remember correctly it was 5 in her lifetime. The feeling was it would allow that bitch to grow up and be proven. Have not spoken to anyone from the UK in several years so it have changed.

 

What a stellar idea! I hope it's still in effect. . . . and that we might consider implementing it here as well.

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I have been wondering about this as I have been reading through this thread.

I know these pages are not produced by ISDS but the source material is and one of the names at the top of the list is a breeder that is heavily frowned upon and the other is mentioned above. In the past this would have been very hypothetical but in my hunt for a well bred dog to bring back to Mallorca some of the names on these lists have come up in my search and I have been pondering the ethics of volume breeding.

http://www.bcdb.info/breeders.htm

http://www.bcdb.info/dealers.htm

 

Thanks for these links, alligande. Although ABCA of course has no responsibility with regard to ISDS breeders, there's a lot of interesting info in these lists, especially on the first (breeders) list. I think folks over here tend to greatly overestimate the number of high volume breeders in the UK. For example, Kevin Evans, said above to "turn out tons of pups a year," actually averaged 20.4 pups over the last 10 years, and only in three of those years did he produce 30 or more. Only five ISDS breeders averaged 30 or more pups per year.

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I believe in the UK / ISDS registry limits how many litters a bitch can have that are registered. If I remember correctly it was 5 in her lifetime. The feeling was it would allow that bitch to grow up and be proven. Have not spoken to anyone from the UK in several years so it have changed.

 

The ISDS will not register more than six litters over the lifetime of a bitch, because that is the maximum permitted by law to licensed breeders under the UK's Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act of 1999.

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Mark, I am still at a loss as to how I somehow insulted you. What did I say to inspire your rude comments?

 

Riika, I've used the Anadune database to research pedigrees in the past. You can take a pedigree all the way back to the beginning of the breed. You can follow the pedigree sideways to see which dogs are littermates, cousins or otherwise related. You can see which litters a dog or bitch has produced. You can calculated COI, try out test matings, etc. Some dogs have DNA test results and other health data entered. The issue with this database is completeness and accuracy. It's very incomplete from the standpoint of not all litters being listed and not all dogs in a litter being entered. You also get mistakes since data is entered by many different individuals. Still, I find it very useful tool.

 

My dream database would contain 100% complete pedigrees, essentially all the registered dogs (ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, etc). It would also allow search functions like finding common ancestors between dogs. It might even have links to videos of dogs working.

My pup's breeder isn't impressed with the reliability of Anadune given the number of times he has had to correct inaccurate data concerning his own dogs and dogs he has bred.

 

I can see how confusion can arise with he repeated use of the same name, just a different registration number.

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But see, how many new to border collies even know about the ABCA, let alone know they have a website with a list? That's why so many start off with AKC dogs - the AKC is highly visible, easy to find and they bill themselves as the gold standard for dog breeds. Otherwise, the most common complaint among newcomers is that they don't know where to look or how to start. They may not know an alternate breed registry even exists.

 

This is more my view, as per helping newcomers. From Sue:

 

 

If a newcomer is doing their research, more than visiting a website they should hopefully meet some people in the working end of the breed and go that route.

 

After all, when one starts looking into prominent bloodlines, look who comes up: big name UK breeders like Derek Scrimgeour and Kevin Evans, who turn out tons of pups a year. Is anyone red-flagging their dogs? Not that I've seen, but the ABCA would darned sure put those guys on that list, if they were in the US.

 

So, anyhow. Still very unsure that this list is going to be much more effective than preaching to the choir ...

 

Everyone's mileage may vary.

 

~ Gloria

Well said Gloria. An arbitrary figure is such a blunt instrument with which to castigate others.

 

Just because those who set that figure may not know anyone who can concentrate on working ability while producing more pups than they deem acceptable doesn't mean that it can't be done.

 

As you know, I'm sure, Derek has spent 30 years working towards producing the sort of dogs he wants. He is now in the fortunate position of being able to make it his business with his daughter - training and breeding with a little light farming on the side.

 

Would he care that he falls foul of ABCA standards? I doubt it very much.

 

Litters are often booked as soon as it is announced that they are on the way and some of the names that crop up wanting one are interesting.

 

Do they breed bitches to the max? No.

 

Do they inbreed? No.

 

Do they work their dogs? Yes.

 

Do they breed fancy looking dogs? No.

 

Do they take back any dog that doesn't work out? Yes.

 

Do they health test? Yes, if it appears to be a good idea. More than many working breeders.

 

Do they charge more for some pups than others? Not that I know of. Everyone pays the same for a pup as they are all a gamble.

 

Do they know working dogs through and through? Absolutely.

 

And Derek and Helen remember you, Donald.

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What I find disturbing about threads like this is that for some it seems morally reprehensible for anyone to make money out of something they enjoy and are good at, in this case breeding working dogs. That seems a very hobbyist attitude to me.

 

And the contradictions are blatant. If you want to get a bc for anything other than work you should still buy a well bred working dog, but if a working breeder increases production to supply the increasing demand we reserve the right to criticise.

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Unfortunately, I and several others have had pretty horrible experiences dealing with Karen Thompson, one of the breeders on the list. I would not hold her up as a good example of how you can be a quality breeder and still produce a lot of dogs. There very well may be some breeders in the UK producing near 100 pups a year who fit the bill, but I don't know them well enough or have enough dealings with them to give one as an example of a quality, high volume breeder.

 

I did note a few names lower down on that list who, to the best of my knowledge, are ethical and produce good working dogs. Simple numbers can't paint an accurate picture.

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High volume here would make me look more deeply into what is going on than I might if looking at an occasional breeder, but there would be more to check out.

 

My guess would be that good quality and high volume can only be achieved if done pretty much full time and can't be assumed even in those circumstances. It also can't be assumed that quality slippage might creep in.

 

We don't know how many pups are being bred by an individual because some may be unregistered or of different breeds.

 

As you say, Liz, simple numbers can't paint an accurate picture.

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Thanks for these links, alligande. Although ABCA of course has no responsibility with regard to ISDS breeders, there's a lot of interesting info in these lists, especially on the first (breeders) list. I think folks over here tend to greatly overestimate the number of high volume breeders in the UK. For example, Kevin Evans, said above to "turn out tons of pups a year," actually averaged 20.4 pups over the last 10 years, and only in three of those years did he produce 30 or more. Only five ISDS breeders averaged 30 or more pups per year.

 

 

Thanks for doing the math. :)

 

I have nothing against Kevin Evans - I actually looked seriously at a pup from him a year and a half ago, but the shipping fees were out of my reach. Probably a good many of the litters I see advertised on his website or Sophie's FB page are not out of his bitches at all, but only sired by his dogs, and of course I've never kept tabs. Thanks for looking deeper into the numbers.

 

~ Gloria

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  • 1 month later...

Sounds like the kind of hate spewed by at least one particular discredited and disbarred breeder. It's interesting to note that the person or persons who posted that was freely naming names af ABCA volunteer board members (and one salaried employee) but not his/her own name or his/her qualifications for his/her argument (at least not that I saw). Anonymous complaints are not generally worth the effort it takes to read them but can mislead the ignorant, gullible, or disaffected.

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Sounds like the kind of hate spewed by at least one particular discredited and disbarred breeder. It's interesting to note that the person or persons who posted that was freely naming names af ABCA volunteer board members (and one salaried employee) but not his/her own name or his/her qualifications for his/her argument (at least not that I saw). Anonymous complaints are not generally worth the effort it takes to read them but can mislead the ignorant, gullible, or disaffected.

I couldn't have said it better myself. (And I too saw the stylistic similarities.)

 

The posting referred to is anonymous, and on a site which invites consumers to post negative comments against a business (although they accept posts against individuals and non-profits such as ABCA as well), and then invites the business to purchase a service from the site which it claims will work to restore the victim's good name. The site refuses to remove any complaint, even if it is proved to be false and defamatory in court. Because I don't want to give this site any more hits, I have removed the posted link. (ETA: No offense, Riika -- I'm pretty sure you didn't post it because you agreed with it.)

 

Anyone who cares to try hard enough can find the post, although I'd urge you not to do so. It's long, incoherent, false in many particulars, and contains no relevant information beyond what has been posted on other, reputable sites about this matter.

 

Please don't repost the link here. If anyone wishes to criticize the ABCA's policy designed to inform both breeders and buyers as to the number of puppies produced by our highest volume breeders, and stating its opinion that high volume breeding is uncharacteristic of good working breeders, you are welcome to publish your own thoughts here.

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What is curious about the ISDS list is the difference between the 2 breeders listed at the top, one is well respected, the other is anything but. Which to me says the list is just data and gives no indication of quality and type of breeding going on, if the ABCA list causes you that much concern then there might be something you are trying to hide.

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