FDA to severely restrict pastured egg production?

[OurBoys]

Hi all,

 

I went on the FDA website and did a quick search trying to find out if this is true but couldn't find anything. Has anyone else heard of this?

 

https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:CampaignPublic/id:1407690.13114850917/rid:0ce6f9f7f30b9f2b8e77cda3e836d195

[Mark Billadeau]

FDA Draft

http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/Eggs/ucm360028.htm

 

FDA Blog post

http://blogs.fda.gov/fdavoice/index.php/2013/07/spirit-of-cooperation-informs-guidance-for-egg-producers/

 

News article

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/07/free-range-chickens-brought-under-egg-safety-rule/

[Gideon's girl]

What a crazy world we live in!!

[OurBoys]

Thanks for the links, Mark.

 

I appreciate the FDA and what they do but this seems a little over the top to me.

[Mark Billadeau]

One of the FDA's mandates is to minimize the level of adulterants in our food, salmonella is one adulterant. They have cracked down on the acceptance of salmonella from large scale (housed) egg producers and to be uniform they must do the same for all large scale free range egg producers. If they do not then there is no way for the FDA to fulfill their mandate to eliminate adulterants in our food supply particularly food sold in grocery stores.

 

 

 

How would you suggest the FDA fulfill the mandate to eliminate salmonella in eggs sold in gocery stores if grocery stores are selling free range eggs? I don't know the best path forward to fulfill the FDA's mandate and not be too onerous for large scale free range egg producers.

[OurBoys]

I understand what you're saying. I've just never heard of anybody getting sick from salmonella in eggs. I'm not saying it's not there, I've just never heard of anybody getting sick from eggs (excluding allergies).

 

ETA: Let me rephrase that. I've never heard of anybody getting sick from clean/washed eggs.

[Smalahundur]

Stupid "everything must be 100% safe mania".

People are sissies nowadays especially about their food.

It is only salmonella, you´ll live (and if you don´t because your immune system couldn´t handle it, well the next bug would have gotten you anyway).

Ah well we have chickens ourselves so we don´t buy eggs anyway.

(we never wash them )

[Mark Billadeau]

This is likley due to the FDA Food Safety Modernization Act

[NorthfieldNick]

Also, "producers with fewer than 3000 laying hens and those who sell all of their eggs directly to consumers are exempt from the Egg Safety Rule."

 

Not going to affect your neighbor with a dozen yard birds who supplies you with eggs, which is possibly not legal anyway, depending on your local regulations. Not that I expect, or want, anyone to stop doing it. For once, the USDA exempted the small farmer. (Okay, hyperbole. I actually generally had no trouble working with the USDA).

[Mark Billadeau]

See Figure 9 of CDC: Surveillance for Foodborne Disease Outbreaks — United States, 1998–2008 to see the percentage of food borne illnesses due to eggs.

 

See Figure 10 for the change in the level from 1998-2008.

 

See Figure 13 for the percentage of salmonella infections due to eggs and Figure 14 for the change in the level from 1998-2008.

 

A salmonella infected bird will infect an egg as it is formed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/26/weekinreview/26eggs.html?_r=0

I can find the research study that demonstrated this if you'd like.

[toney]

While dirty eggs can be an issue in Salmonella infections, several Salmonella types are internal, rather than external.

 

Salmonella enterica (thought to contribute to human health issues) and Salmonella pullorum (not thought to be so severe an issue for humans, but bad for the birds) are inside the egg itself, not on the outside. These bacteria, (as well as other specific Salmonella bacterial strains) can infect a chicken from the environment, remain in the bird and transfer to the bird's oviduct. From the oviduct some low levels of bacteria can enter the developing egg.

 

Flocks that are shown in livestock shows, as well as ones used for commercial egg production, are routinely checked for pullorum by using a blood test. Positive birds are usually destroyed.

[OurBoys]

A salmonella infected bird will infect an egg as it is formed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/26/weekinreview/26eggs.html?_r=0

I can find the research study that demonstrated this if you'd like.

 

No, that I believe.

 

 

 

Flocks that are shown in livestock shows, as well as ones used for commercial egg production, are routinely checked for pullorum by using a blood test. Positive birds are usually destroyed.

 

Can Salmonella enterica be detected in a blood test?

 

 

 

See Figure 9 of CDC: Surveillance for Foodborne Disease Outbreaks — United States, 1998–2008 to see the percentage of food borne illnesses due to eggs.

 

But it looks like they didn't distinguish between free range and caged chickens fed who-knows-what. I think my biggest mental block is believing free range chickens are healthier than caged chicken and healthier chickens are going to produce healthier eggs.

[toney]

Yes the pullorum-typhoid test should pick up enteric as well.

[Pipedream Farm]

Search to see how the science or the FDA/USDA thinks salmonella bacteria enters a property. I read stuff about wild birds, rodents, and other animals bringing in salmonella when I was looking at the FDA sites.

 

 

Then ask yourself if that pathway is present in free range operations. Once a bird gets infected, the rate of transmission will be impacted by the proximity of the birds to one another (housed vs free range); however, once an infection is present other birds will get infected.

 

Mark

[OurBoys]

I can easily visualize the chicken frenzy that would ensue if a chicken found a mouse trying to cross the field they were in. And I'm glad they set the limit at 3000 chickens and over but I can't help but wonder if the regulations will put some chicken farmers out of business.

 

I know they would no longer be considered organic but if free range chickens were fed a medicated scratch, would that help keep down either Salmonella's?

[toney]

And free range is not always what people think. It entails keeping a large number of birds in close proximity for predator control and egg collection. Then moving those birds to another location after they have eaten that area down. Cage free means large enclosed barns where the birds are kept on the ground on litter( shavings and feces). Most cage free birds never see the sun. In both instances I am talking about commercial production methods. It's easy to see that an infection could easily be spread in either situation.

[OurBoys]

And free range is not always what people think. It entails keeping a large number of birds in close proximity for predator control and egg collection. Then moving those birds to another location after they have eaten that area down. Cage free means large enclosed barns where the birds are kept on the ground on litter( shavings and feces). Most cage free birds never see the sun. In both instances I am talking about commercial production methods. It's easy to see that an infection could easily be spread in either situation.

 

Light bulb moment. Thank you, toney.

[OurBoys]

And free range is not always what people think. It entails keeping a large number of birds in close proximity for predator control and egg collection. Then moving those birds to another location after they have eaten that area down. Cage free means large enclosed barns where the birds are kept on the ground on litter( shavings and feces). Most cage free birds never see the sun. In both instances I am talking about commercial production methods. It's easy to see that an infection could easily be spread in either situation.

 

Ok, wait a minute. I stepped away from my computer for a few moments and thought about this. Wouldn't the FDA regulations force companies to treat their chickens like this?

[Pipedream Farm]

Go read the background section of the FDA draft I linked. It describes 4 different organic housing styles.

[juliepoudrier]

Brenda,

IMO feeding medicated feeds indiscriminately is one of the practices that has helped to create drug-resistant bacteria. In the past when I have looked at treating chickens for *anything* I never could find good information on residues in eggs (at least not in the literature associated with the drugs/treatments in question). So I avoid giving my chickens any medications. (I believe there's scientific data that supports the phenomenon of drug-resistance "bugs" being carried out of hog confinement operations by rodents and other pests, which just goes to show that even in the most "sterile" raising environment, you can't keep stuff completely in or completely out.)

 

Like Ben, I'm glad the FDA had the sense to leave the small producer out of it, but as he said you do need to check local laws/ordinances, because there are volume limits on the number of eggs you can sell and still be considered a non-commercial producer.

 

J.

[OurBoys]

Go read the background section of the FDA draft I linked. It describes 4 different organic housing styles.

 

I appreciate the fact they included movable or stationary housing but when it comes to wild birds they say

 

"4. How can I prevent wild birds from entering an outdoor access area?

There are several options to prevent wild birds from entering an outdoor access area. For example, the entire outdoor access area can be covered with solid roofing or with netting, such as that used to protect farmed game birds or berry crops. If you choose to use this option, the covering should extend to and connect with the top of any fencing structure. There should not be any gaps between the netting and/or roofing and the fencing, and care should be taken to prevent wild birds from roosting on any pole or structure supporting the netting.

Other options that might prevent wild birds from entering the outdoor access area include temporarily confining layers during periods of wild fowl migration, limiting layers’ access to the outdoors to hours when wild birds are not likely to be present, usage of noise cannons to scare wild birds away and maintaining attractions such as feed and water in areas where they do not attract wild birds.

In addition, Section III.A.1 of the December 2011 Guidance identifies a number of measures that can help keep wild birds away from the areas where laying hens reside, including layout and placement of the poultry house; preventing amassing of spilled feed; and proper disposal of trash and manure.

The presence of wild birds in an outdoor access area indicates that this route of exposure of the flock to SE is not adequately controlled. Therefore, FDA recommends that the presence of wild birds within the outdoor access area prompt implementation of further facility-specific biosecurity measures, such as those described above, in addition to any measures of this type that your farm already has in place."

 

That's a lot of netting. And noise cannons? Won't that scare the chickens as well?

 

 

IMO feeding medicated feeds indiscriminately is one of the practices that has helped to create drug-resistant bacteria. In the past when I have looked at treating chickens for *anything* I never could find good information on residues in eggs (at least not in the literature associated with the drugs/treatments in question). So I avoid giving my chickens any medications. (I believe there's scientific data that supports the phenomenon of drug-resistance "bugs" being carried out of hog confinement operations by rodents and other pests, which just goes to show that even in the most "sterile" raising environment, you can't keep stuff completely in or completely out.)

 

Yeah, you're right.

[Pipedream Farm]

Are wild birds a reservoir for salmonella?

I can't easily search for this info from our ipad.

Use google scholar and search for "salmonella wild bird incidence"

 

Mark

 

P.S. it did work for me and this was the first "hit" which indicated a high rate (25% or more) rate of salmonella in wild bird feces found near poultry farms.

 

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1593118?uid=3739936&uid=2460338175&uid=2460337935&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&uid=3739256&sid=21102594130407

 

Read just a few of the scientific research articles on salmonella in wild birds and you'll see why the FDA is concerned about it. One talked about infections occurring at back yard bird feeders another about wild birds at dairies.

[OurBoys]

Well, after reading that article I can see wild birds being a problem. With that said, I'm glad I'm not going to be a large commercial producer. You also gave me another reason to use bird netting other than keeping the hawks from taking any chickens.

[juliepoudrier]

I guess what I don't understand is this: Normal healthy animals should be able to withstand exposure to a certain amount of pathogens. It sounds like the wild birds are being made into the "culprits," when I can't help but wonder (actually believe) if factory farming of chickens makes them much more susceptible to infection by these pathogens than they would be if they led more normal lives. The stress, the confinement, the medicated feeds, and so on are helping to not only create birds who can't survive in the "real world," but also helps to create pathogens that are more virulent (thanks to overuse of medications).

 

I have no doubt that wild birds carry Salmonella. I expect a lot more than wild birds carry Salmonella. I would hope that some research time and effort would be expended on making sure raising/growing conditions were conducive to healthy birds in the first place--birds that wouldn't be easily adversely affected should they run into the stray wild birds who haven't been obliterated from their environs.

 

Anecdotal case in point: My chickens eat alongside doves at times. This farm is operated as a conservation forest for shy woodland birds, so there are lots of wild birds around. Lots. I handle chicken eggs on a regular basis. I don't even refrigerate them right away when I collect them, and because they have a protective "bloom" on them when they are laid, I don't automatically wash them--I'll spot clean and wash only the eggs that are truly dirty. My dogs and I and my neighbors eat those eggs. The chickens are great for spreading manure, so surely are encountering all sorts of nasties in their daily lives around the farm. No one is dying of Salmonella here (though coyotes and old age have taken their toll)....

 

At least some of the blame for pathogen problems in any confinement operation is the confinement itself.

 

J.

[OurBoys]

Julie, you don't have a problem with hawks?

 

I also read UV light kills Salmonella (tho I couldn't understand how much and how long it takes).

 

http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/uv_light/uv_light2.htm