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chene
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So it's better not to try at all?

I'd understand your point if this was something that required a ton of effort, but it's not. It's the minute of your time it takes to write down a name and some info. The exact same thing you're doing over and over in all the threads of people asking for breeder recommendations. It still seems to be that the potential benefit outweighs the inconvenience.

But if you have a better idea for making buying a working bred dog more accessible, then I'm happy to focus on that project instead. I just haven't heard any.

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Going to events where people with a breed/activity congregate and talking to folks who have dogs of the type you like isn't hard.

 

I'm not sure where this mentality is coming from. Trials are not always close by or accessible to everyone. I live on Vancouver Island and the process of getting to any of the closest trials would end up being hundreds of dollars just to get there. Not to mention, if you're starting your search in the winter you're SOL.

 

Maralynn, when I came to this board completely new to the breed and the culture, I got a few suggestions, emailed them and only got replies from a handful, no one was having a litter anytime in the next year, only found one breeder online in my area and she wouldn't sell to someone in an apartment. Point being, just because it worked for you doesn't mean it's easy for everyone.

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I'm not saying it's better not to try. I'd love to see such a list, especially as I may be looking to get a pup in the not-too-distant-future if I don't find a rescue relatively soon.

 

But I do think there'd need to be some sort of agreement on what constitutes being "reputable." As we've seen in both this and a concurrent thread, that's not always clear cut.

 

And if it's not comprehensive, meaning if there are a lot of good but not-so-well-known or infrequent breeders, then the list would be of limited usefulness.

 

So I have mixed feelings. If there were such a list, I'd definitely be interested in it. But I wouldn't believe that it was the end of my search for a reputable breeder, perhaps just a start.

 

An unintended consequence of such a list could be that those reputable but occasional breeders not on the list would be overlooked by many potentially good buyers.

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Well, it wasn't exactly *easy* for me. I drove 5 hrs each way to get my second dog. After I'd spoken off and on with his breeder for 2-3 years.

 

Before I got Kolt, the breeders I communicated with were 200-2000 miles away. I was fully prepared to drive - or fly - to get a pup. I only drove 4.5 hrs (one way) to get him though. And half the people I contacted didn't get back to me, either. I was kinda shocked ending up with a pup when I did. I figured that I'd be waiting 6 months at less.

 

The more relationships I form, the easier it is to find those litters that won't be advertised anywhere. And I think that that's why people say go to trials. I know that it's not possible for everyone (I've been to a grand total of one), but it really is the easiest way for a newbie to network.

 

And there have been some lists made on different sites. Littlehats.net is one that comes to mind. But it takes a lot of time to maintain websites. There are a couple pretty decent groups on FB. You'll need to know what questions to ask re: Health testing, temperament and working ability but I see what looks to be fairly decent litters come up regularly.

 

I guess in a nutshell what I'm saying is that the fluid nature of Border Collie breeding in North America means that most people have found lists to be only marginally successful. Even people here who'd be considered "good breeders" to go on that list might only have a litter every 2-3 years.

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So it's better not to try at all?

 

I'd understand your point if this was something that required a ton of effort, but it's not. It's the minute of your time it takes to write down a name and some info. The exact same thing you're doing over and over in all the threads of people asking for breeder recommendations. It still seems to be that the potential benefit outweighs the inconvenience.

 

But if you have a better idea for making buying a working bred dog more accessible, then I'm happy to focus on that project instead. I just haven't heard any.

 

 

No, I'm not saying it's better not to try. I was just questioning the mechanics of it. Who would maintain such a database and how one would discern who should go on it?

 

It *would* require effort, because someone would have to track down and compile all the information required, since a truly comprehensive list would conceivably cover breeders and their dogs and information regarding those dogs in the US, Canada, UK and beyond. This could number into dozens of people and scores of dogs.

 

It would be far from a static list, as well, since it varies greatly how often any given breeder or stud dog owner produces a litter, and the dogs and bitches being bred will change from year to year.

 

So, do-able perhaps, but not without labor and upkeep, and not without some deciding the criteria as to who does - and does not - belong on the list.

 

~ Gloria

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No, I'm not saying it's better not to try. I was just questioning the mechanics of it. Who would maintain such a database and how one would discern who should go on it?

 

It *would* require effort, because someone would have to track down and compile all the information required, since a truly comprehensive list would conceivably cover breeders and their dogs and information regarding those dogs in the US, Canada, UK and beyond. This could number into dozens of people and scores of dogs.

 

It would be far from a static list, as well, since it varies greatly how often any given breeder or stud dog owner produces a litter, and the dogs and bitches being bred will change from year to year.

 

So, do-able perhaps, but not without labor and upkeep, and not without some deciding the criteria as to who does - and does not - belong on the list.

 

~ Gloria

 

If you worry about the reality of one person doing it (I do too, or else I would have just done it and not asked everybody about it first) we could always make an account and give the login to a whole bunch of people. People would comment in the thread suggesting breeders, and then they would be added as they came up. We could as a group decide on some very basic criteria (decision would simply be based on majority vote, or 75% majority vote, or something) and anything that there was disagreement about would go into the details like in the example post I showed. I dunno. There are plenty of ways to make it work. I have seen some lists around but the nice thing about a list on the forum is that so many different people have input to who goes on it that there end up being a lot more breeders on the list than if it's just one person doing research. Even someone super involved in the sheepdog world doesn't know everybody, especially if some of them don't trial or have websites. Several people having access to editing it also makes it a lot more likely to continue being updated frequently.

 

I guess now I'll sit back and wait for the problems with each of my suggestions to be pointed out. :P I would just ask that if anyone's going to point out a problem, they could try to suggest an alternative. If there isn't one, fair enough, but often there is.

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I agree with Donald, Gloria, Maralynn and Mark

 

Vancouver, BC?

 

I just had a pup go there.

 

I breed only for myself, and my work.

This gal knew about me because she had met me at Trials.

 

This pup was out of an neighbor's ranch bitch by my best cowdog

 

She knew what I have, knew I would tell her everything about the dogs.

 

And knew I would gaurantee them, even if not out of my bitch.

 

And I have only bred an outside bitch this one time, because this is an incredible bitch. I kept a pup from this breeding.

 

When she called me she said, 'You know who I am, I ran, such and so dog at these trials.'

 

If she had called me out of the blue, boy she would have to go through alot of screening for me to let her have a pup.

 

And I personally will not go on any breeders list, I do not consider myself a breeder, maybe I should I do not know. But I'd rather trust people who know me and my dogs, and what my dogs and I do. What our work is like. And these people I know from ranching and the Trials!

 

There is the Handler's post that has a great add system, too.

 

Need to add this as well, it isn't often I HAVE a pup to sell. Sometimes I might have a young dog, but that to is not often! So Would the list have folks calling me alot, that would freak me out.

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As soon as someone goes on a list they lay themselves open to on line nit picking and outright criticism, whether deserved or not. I wouldn't do it either if I bred.

 

Chene is on Vancouver Island and says it would cost hundreds of dollars to get to a trial. On the assumption that she lives in the south of the island where most people do maybe Airbear knows of reachable trials as I seem to recall that she lives in the Vancouver area.

 

I agree that you can't beat talking to people face to face even if it's only to get second hand opinions of a breeder and their dogs.

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You know what would be helpful is for reputable people that are going to have puppies to let people know if they are willing to sell to non working homes. And if they are willing to put non working home people on their list for available puppies.

 

I know when I got Tommy 7 years ago Jack Knox told me that he doesn't have a problem selling to non working homes. He just said he doesn't tell people what they have to do with their puppies. It would not surprise me at all to find out that his best working prospects go to working homes first. And that is certainly his prerogative and is probably the way it should be. But in Tommy's litter there were 3 white dogs and a lot of working people don't want white dogs. But there are lots of non working people like me that don't care and it gives him a source to sell those dogs to good homes at a good price.

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One other thing I've learned. I have tried advertizing in a couple of places. One time recently as an experiment. But it is very hard because you do not know the people calling you at all. It is a strange world out there.

 

The Handler's post or Local Ag papers are better because you might not know the person but you most likely Know Someone who does.

 

I much prefer selling a dog by word of mouth thro someone who knows me.

 

I would have no problem with a non-working home, IF they passed my screening, the dog is fixed before leaving me, and I rehome dog if needed.

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I would have no problem with a non-working home, IF they passed my screening, the dog is fixed before leaving me, and I rehome dog if needed.

 

Would you do a pediatric spay or neuter if it were a young pup going to a non working home?

 

I'm not intending to personally criticize, but that would automatically put someone in a non-reputable category for me. . . . which leads back to the question of who decides what's reputable and how do we assess the criteria?

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I have never put a pup into a non-working home, they are sold before they are born. I have had one adult dog put into a non-working home when finished trialing who was spayed.

 

Never thought of fixing a young pup. I was more thinking a young dog that did not work, or older retired dog, or dog that was disabled for some reason. These things have not been needed yet. But I think things through because I care about my dogs.

 

I have heard nuetering a young pup can not be good, is this your reasoning as well?

 

It is good to bring up these points, I am kinda sticking myself out there, but what the heck.

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Yes, it's my understanding that pediatric spay/neuter can lead to health problems in an adult dog. So my personal opinion would be that anyone insisting on spay/neuter before 6 months (which I still believe is too young, but it would be the minimum age I might consider acceptable) doesn't have the best interest of the dog(s) they're selling at heart.

 

I'd have no issue whatsoever with a spay/neuter contract that the breeder or seller follows up on at an agreed upon appropriate age, preferably old enough that the dog's growth plates would have closed.

 

Yes, civil, respectful discussion is always a good thing. ;)

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You know what would be helpful is for reputable people that are going to have puppies to let people know if they are willing to sell to non working homes. And if they are willing to put non working home people on their list for available puppies.

 

 

I think such breeders may not feel a need to advertise that they'll sell to non working homes, simply because they rarely have any shortage of buyers for their pups. Often there's a waiting list each time they produce a litter, or if not, there are plenty of friends-of-friends who can refer people to them.

 

The best way, I'd think, would be to simply ask these people. Some may say, sorry, I only want my pups to go to working homes. Others may say, Sure, send me your name and a deposit and I'll contact you when the litter is born. But odds may be against a renown handler/breeder actually announcing that they sell to pet homes, also. Especially if they may be apt to be extremely choosy about what those pet homes are like.

 

~ Gloria

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I got Lily after finding an ad in a local online classifieds for cattle working border collie puppies that said for working homes only. I contacted the breeder anyway and after talking and several questions they admitted that they were willing to sell to good non-working homes, but did not have any remaining females. They referred me to a friend from a ranch nearby who also had a litter available, but they weren't advertising. I called that breeder and they told me they had a female that didn't seem like she had any herding instinct, so they would consider selling her to a non-working home if I would take the drive to meet her. We took a three hour drive to the ranch and when we got there the breeder did an informal interview asking about my plans for the puppy and such as well as telling us about the parents. She also asked that I keep her updated on the puppy.

 

My point being that sometimes it pays to contact a working breeder even if they don't openly say they are willing to sell to non working homes. They may decide to sell to a non-working home if you make a good enough impression or at least know someone who might have a working bred puppy for you.

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I have definitely encountered the non-working home dilemma. And I understand it.

 

We were VERY lucky to get Scooter. He's from real deal working parents, and he's the first pup the "breeder" has sold to a pet home. He's not a breeder, he just has a litter once in a blue moon if he has a really exceptional dog. As great of a litter as ours was, we still got the oddball pup. He was the only rough coated dog (most people want smooth out here), and he was the fat, lazy, male pup. That likely has no effect on his working ability, but we knew going in that we likely would have the last pick being a pet home. And we were ok with that.

 

And, we're not your average pet home. I've lightly started Keeper and likely will do the same with Scooter. I show cowhorses, so I'm still somewhat in the working world. That connection is what got us a spot in his books.

 

See! I swear I know cattle!

post-14480-0-72301000-1452057273_thumb.jpg

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  • 5 weeks later...

I was wondering about the "working border collie" pages on Facebook and the solicitations on handlers post. Are those Facebook pages really all that reliable? Some posts will show videos of pup or Sire/Dam working sheep or cattle. My gut would tell me to be as cautious about those sources as much as any breeder with a website. Research and inquiry counts. Has anyone had experience, good or bad, actually pursuing pups and litters advertised on those Facebook pages or on handlers post?

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Others may say, Sure, send me your name and a deposit and I'll contact you when the litter is born.

 

Hm, I would personally not put down any money for a pup from a litter that is not even underway.

Culture here is you can be put on the list for a pup, you pay when you pick him up. Nobody cares if you don´t take one if the time is there, and why would they; enough people interested if the parents are known and good.

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Hm, I would personally not put down any money for a pup from a litter that is not even underway.

Culture here is you can be put on the list for a pup, you pay when you pick him up. Nobody cares if you don´t take one if the time is there, and why would they; enough people interested if the parents are known and good.

 

Weird that my name showed up attached to the post you quoted! ;) Anyhow, I think you hit it on the head - it's a cultural thing. In the US, it's very common for people to put a deposit down on a prospective pup, especially if the breeder, the sire and/or dam or the bloodlines are in demand. And since pups may be shipped across the state or country, or buyers may drive a long way to get their pup, it just ensures availability. Not everyone does it, but it's not at all unusual. Just different strokes for different ... cultures! :D

 

~ Gloria

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