Recreational Herding: Is It Ethical?

[juliepoudrier]

I really think the issue here is each individual's understanding of what recreational means. If we don't all have the same picture in mind, then clearly we're not going to agree whether it's right or wrong.

So I will just reiterate what I said before. GOOD trainers/mentors are not going to allow abuse. GOOD trainers aren't going to string someone along when their dog clearly has little interest or talent (or the human has the wrong attitude) just because it's easy money. GOOD trainers will work to increase the human's understanding of livestock behavior and also foster empathy for the stock. GOOD trainers will work hard to explain the whys and wherefores of the whole training/working process, whether the end goal be just learning, a desire to trial, or necessary work on the farm.

Are there loads of shitty trainers out there? Sure, and as others have noted they are all over YouTube for anyone's viewing displeasure.

But does the existence of shitty trainers, people with bad attitudes, etc., mean we (working border collie folks) should discourage all and sundry from ever trying it or exploring the possibilities for themselves and their dogs? The OP clearly is not the sort of person who should be summarily turned away. Simply by asking about the ethics, the OP has made clear, at least to me, that the welfare of the stock is on her mind. That's just the sort of person I'd be willing to try to mentor. But then people who know me also know that I'm not the sort of person to tolerate stock abuse, so if I choose to mentor/train someone, I will follow the practices I listed above WRT what a good trainer would do. I personally don't automatically think it's unethical for someone to want to try their dog on stock, even if they don't have a clear vision of where it all will lead. Part of my job as a trainer would be to have that discussion with the student along the way.

As I said before, I took my dog to sheep on the advice of someone else. Up till that suggestion, stockwork had never crossed my mind. But I got a good start and ended up going far.

So, IMO I would like to focus on telling someone how to find a good trainer rather than just saying, "there's too much abuse out there, so don't even think about trying it with your dog." I know I would have missed out on what now is a very important part of my life if that's the attitude/response I had encountered when I set out on this journey.

JMO.

J

[Tea]

I am really sleep deprived and no longer know if I am typing in russian or english-

 

 

 

But Julie, Baby,

 

you nailed it.

[Pippin's person]

Whatever we do that involves other species seems to me to force inherently ethical considerations whether we like it or not. Do I choose to eat this one but not that one? Do I choose to keep this one as a pet but that one as a source of income? Does this one come inside but that one live in the barn? Do I butcher the males but breed the females? Asking about ethics doesn't necessarily mean something is unethical.

 

LIke others, I've seen what to me is simply abhorrent behavior on the part of Border Collie owners who bring their dogs to sheep. I find more to be disheartened by online about "herding" than not. It seems to me that many people who know shockingly little about the whole thing--sheep, dogs, handling-- present themselves as experts in scary and alarming ways. I have seen terrible off-stock behavior on the part of national caliber stockdogs (and their handlers).

 

But, I have also felt grace--pure and unadulterated. And I hope anyone who has the desire for that would do anything they can to find it as well--even if they make terrible mistakes along the way.

 

I started with an AKC herding instructor whose own dogs savaged sheep so badly that they had to be worked in a muzzle. I bought two sporter collies even while I was a member of this board and brought them to sheep because I wanted them to do what they were bred to do. I hated sliding in wet sheep poop and was too fat and out of shape to chase my dog down when he ran a sheep all over a fifteen acre field and it was only by grace that the sheep didn't hit a fence post and kill itself. Doing what, in fact, he was not bred to do at all (since he was bred to be a performance dog--but the sire was imported from a working hill farm, so he must have it, right?)

 

I learned. And I keep learning. The sheep I got to work my dogs on have become the sheep that I love to watch living their sheep-y lives. Who make me smile everyday just because they are sheep and I can see them out my window.

 

Working sheep did not stop two of my dogs from their blood feud. It did not stop a dog so pre-disposed from obsessing on cats. It did not teach my dogs to wait at the door before barreling out (clickers actually did that). I still have to watch a couple of them or they will pee on unsuspecting people's chairs under the handler's tent. I have sent dogs to be trained; I have bought a trained dog. I will send more dogs to be trained because what they learn first is what they learn best and I am not the best at teaching them what they need to learn first. I have bred a dog even in the face of all that languish in rescue. I work a day job and don't plan to quit it.

 

But, in the complex ethics of all of that, amazing grace.

[geonni banner]

[rushdoggie]

Well then call me a liar too!

OK, apparently I live in a bubble then. I know very few people IRL who have trained to UD level or beyond with their dogs (regardless of methods) and all those dogs were mannerly, imo. I can't imagine having the training skills and desire to get to that level of training and then let the dogs be heathens at home, but I guess there are all kinds.

[emilyfalk]

Has anyone said "there's too much abuse out there, so don't even think about trying it with your dog"?

 

Why is it wrong to educate people on what is not acceptable? Wouldn't that help provide them with the knowledge on what a good instructor does? And we've previously addressed the subject of "what about all the non-posters reading this thread"...again, why can't we let them know that there is, in fact, a non-appropriate way to herd as a hobby?

[emilyfalk]

I like your post, Robin.

[juliepoudrier]

Emily,

My understanding of what's being said, is just that, yes, just not in so many words. Of course we should tell people there are non-appropriate ways to herd--that sort of goes hand-in-hand with telling them what is appropriate. I believe that what is a non-appropriate way to herd as a hobby has been discussed here before, so it's not as if the topic has been ignored. I know I have told folks over and over what to look for in a good trainer and what to stay away from, and generally right at the top of my list is the treatment of livestock. That's not to say we shouldn't repeat it some more, but when it's said over and over after a poster asks about recreational herding, it's easy to see how the comments can be seen as discouraging said poster from trying.

 

On that I guess we'll have to agree to disagree (even though I don't think we're really disagreeing in the end).

 

I'm just going to say one last thing: I see abuse of stock among our peers, not just folks who are idiotic enough to post videos on YouTube. I think we should all be mindful of what might be abusive when seeking trainers, working our own dogs, or teaching others. <-- And just to clarify, this is not directed at anyone here. But it exists, even among our own ranks.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Thank you, Julie, Robin, Emily, Mark, and others who have really contributed some thoughtful and insightful comments on this topic. It's been food for thought in many ways.

[airbear]

... But, I have also felt grace--pure and unadulterated. And I hope anyone who has the desire for that would do anything they can to find it as well--even if they make terrible mistakes along the way.

 

Brava, Robin. You've said everything I wanted to say, and much more eloquently than I could have. Thank you.

[Gloria Atwater]

I've never been called perspicacious before! I'm just going to repeat the word several times and grin.

To reply to the esteemed and estimable Mr. McCaig, I will clarify: I could have better said that working sheep should not be taken as a substitute for consistency and structure at home. Of itself, sheep work won't be much of a fix if Spot is surfing the kitchen counters, diving in the trash, jumping on the children and chasing the mail truck with no other intervention by his owners.

But in the context Mr. McCaig gives, a regular, well-regulated training stock training regimen - during which the trainer may well tell Spot's owner, "Take Spot home and for pity's sake do some leash lessons and teach him what 'sit' means" - can provide a positive and helpful channel for a border collie's energies and instincts. It can certainly help a well-meaning if uneducated owner arrive at a new understanding of their dog and what a positive, happy relationship with him really is. I don't argue that at all.

Too tired to address anything in the posts since his, so I bid you all good night. Tonight California and western Nevada are praying VERY hard that this incoming storm will actually deliver rain!
Cheers ~

Gloria

 

 

 

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

The perspicacious Ms. Atwater writes (in part): "Just to play the devil's advocate ... if a dog has behavioral problems, working sheep will not fix them. It's a mistake to think that a dog "needs" to work livestock as a solution to problems at home. A border collie in the right home doesn't have major or severe behavioral problems if his people devote the time, attention and training that he requires."

 

Yes and no. These dogs aren't a bundle of behaviors; they're complex, sentient mammals with learned and genetic desires and many novice's dogs' household manners will improve after a month or two of weekly stockwork instruction. NOT ALL. Many.

 

After all: it is likely the first time anyone has asked these dogs to do anything that made dog-sense.

 

Sheepdogs want to inhabit dog-sensible space. A few sheepdogs are so indifferent to humans, that space occurs only during stockwork. More learn that on stock at least, their owner means what he/she says........

 

Unlike other forms of Border Collie work/play, stockwork is genetically satisying. If the dog goes out and brings sheep - that most basic of tasks - and stops, on command, when he has done so, the world makes sense to him and your part in it, your direction of his everyday behaviors makes sense too.

 

Can a dog ignorant Klutz improve his/her dog's mannerliness by putting ti in a small ring with sheep? I doubt it. Klutz is in the wrong place at the wrong time, dog's genes are overwhelming what little obedience it has and sheep want Out of There.

 

But. If the Klutz persists for a month or three under the guidance of a good mentor (who will be instructing the Klutz as much or more than the dog), I believe the dog's manners will also improve.

 

Now the dog has skin in the game.

 

Donald McCaig

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm just going to say one last thing: I see abuse of stock among our peers, not just folks who are idiotic enough to post videos on YouTube. I think we should all be mindful of what might be abusive when seeking trainers, working our own dogs, or teaching others. <-- And just to clarify, this is not directed at anyone here. But it exists, even among our own ranks.

 

J.

 

Agreed. Just like dog abuse if we never call it out it out, how will it ever change? It needs to change within our peers and it needs to be instilled into those coming into the sport/hobby.

 

 

Don't the YouTube videos suggest that many/some of the easiest (highest volume) entry points into the sport are also those within our ranks who are abusive to livestock? If so, how will new comers learn to not be abusive? How will they learn the difference between "livestock exist to train dogs" and "dogs exist to manage livestock with less stress on the livestock"?

 

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

Honest question - what are these YouTube videos?

 

I am not immersed in trialing at all.

[Tea]

Знак, вы, право

 

Goodnight- whoa..I am actually dreaming in Russian!

 

Gloria! You got Rain!

[Mark Billadeau]

see post 73 of this topic

[Tea]

Mark, I feel you are correct- thats what my russian said

[juliepoudrier]

Yes, I think it's important to make clear to folks who ask the rights and the wrongs of stockwork. But of course that requires us to also take a long, hard look at ourselves and how we view/treat our own stock. If it's a hot day and I have four dogs to prepare for a trial and I work the heck out of my dogs, am I mindful of what I'm doing to the sheep, even if I'm switching out groups regularly?

 

If I raise sheep, but also train my dogs to trial, I am automatically adding unnecessary stress to my sheep. If I train a larger number of dogs and train them repeatedly, then I am stressing my stock. We all need to think about when our training crosses the line to abusive. Perhaps that line is different for everyone, but I think sometimes any of us may well put our own needs (training for trials) ahead of fairness to our livestock. I don't think this is deliberate, but it most certainly happens.

 

Granted, this isn't on the same scale of what can be seen in videos, but when we are calling out the folks in those videos, it makes sense to be sure that we aren't happily lobbing stones from our own glass houses.

 

I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, but if we can all point out examples of good trainers, and if we can make sure that we are good examples in our everyday treatment of our own stock, and if we are willing to speak up when we see our peers treating stock in a way that we think is inappropriate, maybe change can be effected on multiple levels. I mean, we mention "dog toys" as an example of a poor attitude but I also have heard handlers refer to sheep as "training tooks" for their dogs. That's not such a great leap from one to the other when thinking of attitudes....

 

J.

Agreed. Just like dog abuse if we never call it out it out, how will it ever change? It needs to change within our peers and it needs to be instilled into those coming into the sport/hobby.

 

 

 

Don't the YouTube videos suggest that many/some of the easiest (highest volume) entry points into the sport are also those within our ranks who are abusive to livestock? If so, how will new comers learn to not be abusive? How will they learn the difference between "livestock exist to train dogs" and "dogs exist to manage livestock with less stress on the livestock"?

[emilyfalk]

I agree, Julie. I alluded to it when I said "newbies, instructors, and trialers" were guilty. Raising awareness is a good thing! New people coming into the sport don't know what they don't know (as far as who/what is inappropriate). There are good examples and bad examples of how to treat your dogs and your stock, no matter who you are and how Big your Hat is, and I think it's a good idea to keep these sorts of discussions open. Thanks!

[Camden's Mom]

Don't the YouTube videos suggest that many/some of the easiest (highest volume) entry points into the sport are also those within our ranks who are abusive to livestock? If so, how will new comers learn to not be abusive? How will they learn the difference between "livestock exist to train dogs" and "dogs exist to manage livestock with less stress on the livestock"?

 

This is a shockingly good point, Mark.

 

Admittedly, I did nothing more then a simple google search to find a place to have my border collie instinct tested (not proud, just being honest). It's unnerving to me, in retrospect, to think how easily I could have ended up with a trainer who had no regard for the welfare of the animals or no interest in the handler's motivations. I feel extremely lucky that I found someone on that first search who I believe upholds the standards of training that have been promoted on this thread... but what if I hadn't!?!?

 

I'd like to think I would've recognized the abuse on my own. I'd like to think my gut would've told me something was "wrong". But who can say what would've happened?!?

 

I do know what DID happen: I found a good trainer, went out for that instinct test and came back with a completely different perspective on the whole thing. We went to a few lessons, we started doing "homework", I asked more and more questions each week, I sought out a larger community (yeah, I'm talkin' about you guys) and I've kept asking questions.

 

I'd like to think that even if my "entry point" had been with a bad trainer I'd still have done all of these things (and ditched the bad trainer, obviously) but I just can't say for sure. I largely agree with your comment and it's great (perhaps a little worrisome) food for thought...

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

I have no objection to the first posted link. It cautions against dogs harassing and worrying sheep. It's a short primer on what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable. What objectionable material did I miss in the first link.

 

On the Kerry Blue Terrier - I would not put a terrier on stock. I don't believe it's got any business being there. That is objectionable.

 

On the Bouvier - it's an owner who wants titles. God bless her. The dog hasn't got an idea of what stock is. Will he improve? Not likely, he is missing a lot.

 

Does that mean that everyone who enters a training facility would behave in the same way? Possibly. Should those mistakes be generalised to everyone who wants to recreational put his dogs on stock? Nope.

 

Not every hobbyist is unable to grasp right and wrong. The onus is on the trainer.

 

By the way, my second dog was a posessed devil. He ran my girls almost as much as that terrier. So I put him up until he developed a bit more wisdom and was old enough to handle correction. And I broke my ankle running after him. He's got a nice pace now and is much calmer, although has a few WOOHOO moments.

[Gloria Atwater]

Знак, вы, право

 

Goodnight- whoa..I am actually dreaming in Russian!

 

Gloria! You got Rain!

 

 

Oh Tea, моя подруга, we got rain, we got good rain, and now we have SNOW! Over a FOOT of the stuff and still coming down! Praise God! Western Nevada is very happy.

 

I now return the group to its regularly scheduled discussion.

 

~ Gloria