Dirty Little Secret

[Liz P]

And BTW, I've never seen anyone using a shock collar to train a dog on sheep. I saw dogs who had been trained with them at trials.

[Sue R]

Yes, HT dogs are often trained with shock collars. In my opinion and experience, I think it makes them grippier and causes them to resort to cheap dives and grips that are not necessary at all. HT dogs that I have seen that were trained with shock collars, that were later trained without the use of shock collars and with reasonable, quality training methods, became much better, more confident, less grippy stockdogs in my opinion. With the shock collars, I think the dogs were much more likely to harm and stress the stock. With the better, proper training, they treated the stock with respect and confidence.

 

Yes, I have seen a shock collar used twice on different dogs. No, I did not have the courage or experience to speak up at that time. Yes, I stopped patronizing the trainer and location where this occurred. No, I don't think the shock collars were in any way humane or humanely used, when I saw them being used. Neither do I think the people using them were sadistic, just lacking the skills or patience to use better methods, which I hope and believe most of them have learned to utilize to great benefit, both in training the dogs and for the dogs' sakes.

 

Shock collars have no place, IMO, in training working Border Collies - actually, I doubt they have any place in virtually any form of dog training. Are they torture? At some settings, I am sure they are abusive. At very low settings, I doubt they are - and may be useful in some specific situations (such as alerting a deaf dog at a distance or out of sight).

[Journey]

I doubt they have any place in virtually any form of dog training. Are they torture? At some settings, I am sure they are abusive. At very low settings, I doubt they are - and may be useful in some specific situations (such as alerting a deaf dog at a distance or out of sight).

 

Agree and disagree. I knew a beagle, a hunting and performance one, out of the context of training stockdogs, but this beagle was going to be roadkill. She would. not. come. no way, no how, and the owner/trainer had a choice, put her up and never do anything in areas that were not fenced or train the recall on a SC. 3 sessions later and she never had to use it again. Yep, it was the right decision, this beagle was as driven to hunt as a border collie is to work.

[Sue R]

Yes, and that's why I said possibly some specific situations (very narrow, very specific). I think we are in agreement. As a tool, however, I think the shock collar does have a lot of potential to be used improperly - so does any tool. I think the nature of a shock collar makes it very easy to use it improperly and brutally. There must be alternatives - there were before they were invented.

[Amelia]

Hello all,

 

I'm glad to know I misinterpreted the posts I thought were excusing shock collars. Thanks for explaining it to me. Julie, I'm happy to name names privately. Send me a PM, and I'll tell you as I have done for the many people who have already asked me.

 

Yes, I have confronted her on the 1 occasion I personally saw her use a shock collar. I have had no/very limited contact with her in over 10 years. The evidence of on-going abuse that I now have comes first-hand from her former students who now come to me, like the man who owns Indie.

 

I'm just dead set against shock collars, because I've never seen a victim of one that didn't demonstrate some aberrant behavior as a result. As for the Beagle, if I couldn't train her to recall any other way, I simply wouldn't hunt her. I just couldn't do it, and you'll never convince me that's it's OK under any circumstance. I've seen the damage up close and personal and it really gets to me.

 

Using a shock collar stops the development of natural, instinctual ability in the dog and turns it into fear - Vergil Holland

 

Vergil said it better than I did, and thanks to Maja for giving us a link to his brilliant article.

 

Cheers all,

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm glad you have this poor girl in, Amelia. Her story breaks my heart, and your blog article is a sobering reminder. It actually gives me a kick in the conscience, as well, since I rarely see shock collars in use, but I did see one just this past weekend. I was at an AHBA sheepdog trial where a woman setting out sheep had a shock collar on one of her young BC dogs. She said it was to prevent the dog biting! I wish now that I'd spoke aloud the thoughts that flashed through my head, or at the very least, complained to the trial organizers. Next time, hopefully I will.

 

Maja, thanks for the Vergil Holland link. He sums up my thoughts on shock collars exactly, only with greater eloquence and much more knowledge.

 

~ Gloria

[Sue R]

As for the Beagle, if I couldn't train her to recall any other way, I simply wouldn't hunt her.

That seems, to me, to be the simple and most sensible solution.

[juliepoudrier]

I was at an AHBA sheepdog trial where a woman setting out sheep had a shock collar on one of her young BC dogs. She said it was to prevent the dog biting!

Wow, she was on a trial field, even as a worker and not a competitor, with a shock collar on her dog? Astounding! If I were you, I'd complain after the fact, if there's a process by which to do so. We can't control what people do in the privacy of their own property, but at a trial? What message was she sending to the competitors and any members of the public? And seriously if the dog bites to the point where she needs a shock collar to stop it, then she shouldn't be working the dog and certainly not while working set out (although as Sue noted, I imagine the use of the shock collar only creates more problems). Poor dog!

 

I am completely shocked (no pun intended) that the trial hosts or AHBA itself would condone that.

 

 

J.

[Sue R]

Wow, she was on a trial field, even as a worker and not a competitor, with a shock collar on her dog? Astounding! If I were you, I'd complain after the fact, if there's a process by which to do so. We can't control what people do in the privacy of their own property, but at a trial? What message was she sending to the competitors and any members of the public? And seriously if the dog bites to the point where she needs a shock collar to stop it, then she shouldn't be working the dog and certainly not while working set out (although as Sue noted, I imagine the use of the shock collar only creates more problems). Poor dog!

 

I am completely shocked (no pun intended) that the trial hosts or AHBA itself would condone that.

 

 

J.

I have seen people who train with shock collars, leave them on when they are not using them, feeling that "the dog doesn't know it's not going to shock them."

 

You are right, Julie - in my experience, I believe shock collars increase gripping because they decrease confidence and create anxiety.

 

I doubt AHBA would allow shock collars but if it's not a competitor, I guess that would be up to the trial host, who showed very poor judgement to allow it to be on the dog even if not to be used, I think.

[Liz P]

Uh, I saw a shock collar on a dog at a USBCHA trial. The collar came off for the run, but was on and being used to shock the dog between runs. The owner didn't understand why I objected to it. He was using it to correct his dog for lunging at other dogs rather than putting his own dog on a leash.

[Debbie Meier]

Liz, curious, do you recall how that dogs run went? Guessing that the nasty aggressiveness vented toward other dogs could also be seen in a high pressure situation while working stock. I could see where the dog would grip out when things became tense, during the lift, at the pen and during the shed.

[Amelia]

Liz and Gloria, the HA and the AHBA both have rules governing humane treatment of animals. Liz, it will cost you $50 to make the complaint, which is refunded if the board acts on your complaint. I'll send you the $50 if you will make the complaint. PM me.

 

Gloria, the AHBA also has humane rules, but I couldn't find a grievance process on their site. I did however find a link to email address for thier officers: Click here Whether you know the name of the individual or not, email them and tell them which trial, and who were the organizers. Apparently the hosts need some help policing their own events.

 

People, if we don't speak up and start filing complaints against the abusers, we. are. complicit. in the cover up.

[Smalahundur]

Happy to report these nasty devices are banned here in Iceland.

[Liz P]

Amelia, this would have been at my second trial ever. I didn't know the rules back then or that it was ok to report. I couldn't tell you the guys name because I had forgotten it a long time ago. He was maybe 50 years old and was running in N/N, otherwise I don't remember much about him. I don't think I have seen him at a trial since then.

 

Debbie, the dog retired after chasing the sheep down the field and over the fence into the exhaust pen. Had he caught them he might have gripped, but the sheep never gave him the chance.

[Gloria Atwater]

Amelia and Julie, I feel myself somewhat chastened for failing to act. I will take this as a reminder for me to be more awake and more aware, the next time I witness something like this. Complacency is how cruelty persists.

 

Also, I just realized one of the AHBA officers was present at this trial, and knows this woman. The culprit and her collared dog had to've walked past this officer a dozen times, over the course of the weekend. Hmmm ....

 

~ Gloria

[bill virginia]

The Story of Indie

 

Please read about Indie, then together let's speak out and stop the abuse.

 

Thanks all,

[Amelia]

Also, I just realized one of the AHBA officers was present at this trial, and knows this woman. The culprit and her collared dog had to've walked past this officer a dozen times, over the course of the weekend. Hmmm ....

 

Gloria, if it were me, I would write to every other officer, who was not present, and file a complaint not only against the abuser, but the officer who stood by watching, and did nothing about it. I would do it for you, (in a minute!) but I wasn't there, and the evidence gets thin 2nd hand.

 

It's got to start somewhere, and in not acting, you are setting a precedent for others. Sorry to have to ask you to be the one but;

 

Complacency is how cruelty persists.

[Gloria Atwater]

Thanks, Amelia. Doing the right thing is sometimes not black-and-white, but ... it's the right thing.

[waffles]

Because I know a few gun dogs who wear e-collars I have a totally different understanding of them then most people (neither dog was ever in pain, looked confused, sad, robotic, etc). I don't use one, nor do I think they have any place with working stock dogs or in the hands of the average dog owner. But I do know that the ones used today and the methods used today are not at all what you guys describe or have seen (according to your descriptions of the dog being shocked for lunging, being in painetc). I don't want to argue or type a long thing, but thought I would post a couple articles and if you want to learn how a lot of people use e-collars properly it really is interesting. There is a lot more to it than most would think. Read through all the articles, I find it interesting and have personally seen how they work and have felt one at my "working level". I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but thought I would post some info for those looking to read up on things.

 

http://www.gundogmag.com/2011/04/21/collar_tips/

http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm -his articles really go into detail about how to start using one, how to teach your dog what it is, etc.

http://www.tacticalk-9.com/training_tips/police_k9_magazine_e-collar_article

[Tea]

No

 

 

 

I would like to teach you something new- without words or hand signals we both understand

 

 

I will teach you, a person, with this collar.

 

 

 

Then after teach you using common sense and patience and compassion without the collar.

 

Then decide.

 

 

 

I'll Bet you! Any takers.....Come on!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Amelia]

Waffles, I read the articles, and I don't see how my understanding of shock collars is any different than yours. You say you don't use them, but have experienced them at "your working level," and that's contradictory. To me, your reply reads like justification. You mention you don't see pain, confusion, sadness, but I'm sure you're only looking for the short-term result and not the unfortunate side effects. My suggestion is to consider the long-term damage and destroy the collar.

 

From Tactick Talk

 

At this point, we are looking for an ever-so-slight reaction — such as a neck jerk — nothing more. If

your canine vocalizes, you have set the collar too high. Every canine differs in his level of tolerance. I have seen hard, tough dogs vocalize at very low levels and vice versa.

 

Timing is important, as well as when to stimulate and how long to stimulate. If you have a canine that

dramatically expresses sensitivity to the e-collar, do not give in to him. If you place the e-collar on your hand and stimulate yourself with a low level, you will understand that this is not a big deal and should not be for your canine, either. So my point is, do not back off. Continue to use a low level of stimulation and be thankful you have a canine that responds so easily. Some handlers, and even trainers, make the mistake of thinking, “I cannot use the e-collar, my dog is too sensitive.” That is nonsense.

We must teach and allow the canine to understand this new type of correction; it is as simple as that.

 

There are any number of quotes to be taken from the recommended reading list that clearly illustrates shock collars cause pain and fear regardless of the level of electrocution used, but I was pretty sure you would get the point from this one. The reactions mentioned here are coming from Malinois and German shepherd dogs. Imagine what happens to a more intelligent and far more sensitive Border Collie.

 

The article I quoted from did nothing to change my opinion, and in fact read more like a manifesto on how to effect a sizable shortcut, and the resulting aberrant behavior it will surely create. I can't imagine asking a dog to risk his life for me after torturing him in training.

 

Do not read into this any criticism of law enforcement. I have the utmost regard and appreciation for them, but I firmly believe there's a better way, and I'm even more convinced after completing the suggested reading.

[Tea]

The old purpose of e-collars

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

It is no Secret my Tsu that your Uncle Antonio got out of

the Family business.

 

But sometimes, the old business shows.

 

Do you remember Tsu? You were about 5 or 6 and we went tolook at a dog event somewhere north of Tacoma. Uncle Tony thought it up and invited us because he knew we loved dogs.

 

At this event, sprawled over ten acres were all kinds ofdogs doing all kinds of things.

 

It was a bright and sunny fall day and we strolled throughthe lines of dogs and fields where every dog got a chance to show what she could do.

 

Uncle Tony was welldressed in a silk suit and a red tie. His shoes were soft and he was carefulwhere he stepped.

 

Once proclaiming in his Brooklyn accent, "Hey…dere alotta dogs 'round here!"

 

He then smiled down at you and wagged his finger with thegold ring and red ruby glinting from it.

 

We saw Frisbee dogs jumping up like deer. And games of ballplayed as relay. Then saw trained protection dogs. Even diving dogs. And what Iliked best, a team of sled dogs pulling a dry land rig.

 

 

Uncle Tony liked the little mixed rescue dogs best. Which kind ofsurprised me but he was a tender hearted man.

 

He flirted successfully with the burger stand girls; withhis older, dark, handsome good looks they fell over each other to get him acream soda.

 

 

However the problem started when he went to find the men'sroom. It was not a porta potty, mind you, Uncle Tony was fussy, but a proper men's room.

 

 

Uncle Tony motioned for us to meet him round the back, whichwe did.

 

 

While we were waiting a man walked by with a big dog.

 

"Stand." He commandedthe dog.

 

 

Then something weird happened. The dog jumped, as thoughmomentarily startled.

 

 

The man I noticed was holding a device in his hands. Hefiddled with it and then walked on.

 

 

I turned and saw my Uncle Tony who had just come out of themen's room. He was wiping his hands on a paper towel as he didn't believe inthe blow dryer things.

 

He stopped wiping. The towel floated down to the ground.Uncle Tony put his hand to his pocket.

 

 

I thought…uh oh….. And grabbed you and plastered us behind a garbage can.

 

 

Uncle Antonio walked up to the man with the big dog.

 

"Hey…..What's the matta wit you…You dumb A**! Gimme that. "Uncle Tony grabbed the deviceand dropped it on the ground and smashed it under his foot. All the whileglaring up at the man. Uncle Tony beingSicilian was short.

 

"Look you…..I don't ever want to see you use dis thingagain……You got that."

 

 

The man thinking maybe humoring my Uncle was the best thing,managed a weak nod.

 

"You know why you dumb testa di cazzo…….?"

 

 

The man raised his eyebrows questioningly.

 

 

"Because in da old days we used a thing like dat on da bastardos……..like YOU! You got it. You don'tEVER use it on dogs. Dogs are good. Now you remember…….."

 

 

Then Uncle Antonio straightened his perfect red tie and walkedback to us….and held out his hand to you and we walked away.

 

Uncle Antonio apologized, "Sorry you had ta see dat……but you know……tools got their place.

[Maralynn]

I think we all agree that ecollars have no place in training a stock dog.

 

But I am curious as to what people opinions are of electric fences as they use pain/fear to control stock and are pretty commonplace in livestock operations. Is this acceptable? And if so what is the difference between use electric shocks to control/train one species vs. another?

[Tea]

Humans control shock collars.

 

 

 

My adult sheep can control if they get shocked or not.

 

By not touching fence. Just like they can control not falling off a cliff or not falling in the pond

 

 

 

.

[Gloria Atwater]

What Tea said. A cow or sheep or horse can make a choice to avoid an electric fence. One touch, and they'll probably never go near one again. You could string fifty miles of electric fence, and never zap a single animal again.

 

The dog, however, can't take off his shock collar. He can't escape whatever his person decides to do with it. He's at the mercy of that person's finger on the button.

 

 

The worst thing I ever heard, years ago, was of a woman trying to use a shock collar on a dog she was working in a small arena. It was being a bit naughty, dashing through the sheep and such, but the dog failed to react to anything she did with that collar. She thought it must have malfunctioned and began to complain about it - and turned up the juice. Nothing from the dog in the arena with her.

 

At some point, however, she realized she *was* hearing a response from out the parking area. The collar that actually went to that particular control device was on a dog in a crate in her car. The dog was screaming in terror and pain. But she wasn't sorry. She was only annoyed that the collar was on the wrong dog.

 

Good thing I wasn't there, or one of us would have gone to jail.

 

~ Gloria