For those who don't know better

[Amelia]

There are still folks out there who use, or allow others to use, shock collars on their dogs.

 

Yesterday someone came to me for an assesment of their dogs after taking lessons from another local, so-called trainer. The student related to me that this so-called trainer, (infamous for abusing dogs under the guise of training,) put both dogs in shock collars and used them herself during the lesson. She told the student to correct the dogs verbally when she (idiot trainer) hit the button, so the dogs would think the torture was coming from the student. Sound like anyone in Southern California that you know?

 

One dog had some talent and the other might, but it was hard to tell through the beaten down demeanor. Both dogs were distracted while working and both were trying hard to love the job through their confusion.

 

I didn't think we had to say this any more, but we do. Using shock collars is abuse. Period. There is no excuse, reason or justification for doing so, and there is nothing having to do with training a stockdog that can't be accomplished far more successfully in some other way.

 

Cheers all,

[stockdogranch]

Agreed.

I guess I am just naive, but I really had no idea anyone is this area did that. Ever. Hope you can help those poor dogs,

A

[bcnewe2]

Geesh...

coming here from AR I can say...they're all over AR. We had a small stockdog club there and had to make a speical rule to outlaw them from using one while at club functions and even during small arean trials if they thought they could get away with it. You could always tell when a dog had been abused by one.

I'd think CA would be byond that type training.

Go figure

[desertranger]

I use shock collars. I like to take them and put them on people who use them on dogd and let 'em have a full jolt.

 

disgusting practice.

[RoseAmy]

Serveral years ago I came into the procession of an open dog that I was told had some "issues". Basicly this dog was very talent and very keen. The "problem" was that for no "apparent" reason she would fly off the handle and take a sheep down.

 

I soon realized she was fine until she made or even thought she made a mistake and then zoom she would take a sheep down.

 

In digging around trying to find out why this was happening I found that she was beat..yes I said beaten for grabbing sheep. And in digging further I found out that in the beginning she never did this..but she would get over keen and excited and they couldn't get her to stop..soooo guess what they started to train her in a shock collar. BOOM that's when all this started.

 

Boy what a trip that dog was, working her was not fun and I confess many days I would cry as I tried to figure out and control this dog. Happy to say after much work and tears and no shock collar she came around and I enjoyed running her. She has been the dog that has taught me the most..

[JLP]

Shock collars are fine if used correctly. I started one of my dogs with one. When we first started out training he would do a all out attack on the cattle. Very abusive to them. He already knew what down was so I used a shock collar set on 2 to make him down. Worked like a charm. If a dog is going to abuse stock like that I will get a down!

After the second day I never had to use it again. I definatly dont think it was abusing the dog on 2.

[bcnewe2]

I guess I'm not against them but feel like there are much better ways to do things when training on stock. JLP's issues might have had me questioning my feelings. But when they are used because nothing else is tried and it's not a dog that needs one, I think you squish anything out of the dog that might have been there when you need it. The people down in AR using them had no business using them or anything else. It was a good ol boy thing. I think there's a place for them but not in the uneducated hands that I've seen use them. And I for one am totally uneducated in the use of one properly so I won't be using one any time soon.

Anything can be abuse if used in the wrong manner or without the dogs best interest in mind.

[Lenajo]

They are a very crude but powerful training tool, effective in the same way that a hammer is a very good way to kill ants if you have the time and the ground can take it.

 

They are better used for extinction of behaviors that are very black and white. Very little of that occurs in working stock.

 

I've seen one dog in the last few years that benefitted, and that was a very large dog that liked to back bite sheep. I ran the collar, the handler worked him, and Mr Electric Sheep occurred when he grabbed on. Will that dog ever be a fantastic herding dog on the Open field? no. But we knew that, and weighed out the benefits and risks in a rational manner. It worked for that situation.

 

I don't think most people can control their temper enough in general to even think about using one. And for 99% of stockdog training issues the best solutions have no electricity required.

 

You can't beat a e-collar for LGD issues imo. That I learned from some fantastic stockman. Lamb mauling, interfering with lambing, digging under fences, or climbing over fences etc. But again, these are black and white behaviors if corrected in a timely manner. Not like working stock where so much happens at once.

 

I've watched police, schutzhund, and pet training with some very talented trainers who only use TriTonics. It's not my way, but I will say their success rate was high and the dogs seemed to be content, joyful workers. However I question if the average person could even follow up what they did.

 

I think by nature Border Collies are a superstitious breed, apt to put 2 and 2 together and get 5 and blame it on an urelated object/person/behavior before most dogs would even say "huh?". I don't think a dog could end up a good working stockdog if he was waiting for shocks out of nowhere. Which is why most stockdogs trained with e-collars present with bizarre combinations of behavior and problems. Just like laser pointers - e-collars are stimulation without something understandable realistic to accompany it. Confusing at best, frightening to level of neurosis at worst.

[Little Bo Boop]

Shock collars are fine if used correctly. I started one of my dogs with one. When we first started out training he would do a all out attack on the cattle. Very abusive to them. He already knew what down was so I used a shock collar set on 2 to make him down. Worked like a charm. If a dog is going to abuse stock like that I will get a down!

After the second day I never had to use it again. I definatly dont think it was abusing the dog on 2.

 

 

I'm sorry, I guess this doesn't make sense to me, especially this ---

He already knew what down was so I used a shock collar set on 2 to make him down. Worked like a charm. If a dog is going to abuse stock like that I will get a down!

 

IMHO having a 'down' on a dog does nothing to address the gripping or "attacking" issue. You needed to get in there and help the dog, train the dog, show him how to get the job done without savaging the stock. E collars, in my estimation are the quick and dirty, lazy mans way of training stock dogs. It's a lot easier I suppose, when a problem pops up, you just press a button...guess it saves you the mental effort, not to mention the leg work it takes to actually train a dog...I think I prefer the old fashioned way myself ;-)

[Laurae]

E collars, in my estimation are the quick and dirty, lazy mans way of training stock dogs. It's a lot easier I suppose, when a problem pops up, you just press a button...guess it saves you the mental effort, not to mention the leg work it takes to actually train a dog...I think I prefer the old fashioned way myself ;-)

 

Me, too, Betty.

[RoseAmy]

Let me make clear this dog WAS NOT taking sheep down in the beginning she was just blowing off the downs. It was AFTER they put a shock collar on her and started zapping her for not downing that she began taking sheep down.

 

Now I an not a total novice but by no means am i a top handler and after a few months of taking a few steps back with this dog and starting over the sheep grabbing stopped. We also had a down. The difference being I wasn't looking for a quick fix..I was looking to train a dog.

 

It seems pretty apparent that they were not looking to invest time into training this poor dog just a quick fix so they could start trialing her sooner.

 

I still contend slow and steady is the way..

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks for starting this very interesting discussion, Amelia, as I am totally against using a shock collar for training a Border Collie for stockwork. However, I do feel that a shock collar can be effective for correcting certain behavior problems (not stockwork related), IF that behavior could lead to the dog's death (such as a fence jumper that runs off to herd the traffic on the highway).

 

One reason that I am opposed to using a shock collar for stockwork is that no matter how good the timing of the operator of the shock collar is, there is no way that they can be 100% certain what the dog is thinking when it gets shocked. There may be a split second between the time that the dog thinks about making a mistake and his next thought, which may be to change his behavior and work correctly. I wonder how many times dogs have been shocked at the very moment that they were changing their minds about making a mistake. I truly can't think of one time during the training of a stock dog when shocking it would be the best way to correct it. I agree with those who have written that a shock collar is a "quick fix" for problems that could be better corrected by using appropriate training techniques.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[Pipedream Farm]

I think it can also be easy to incorrectly think a young dog is hard headed when it really is just showing typical young dog enthusiasm. My young dog BJ was very pushy and grippy when she started. She didn't want to stop for anything. Now, at 3 she's still pushy. She doesn't particularly want to stop, but she does. She stops and listens because she has a good relationship with me. In spite of all her wildness, she always wanted to be a good dog --a shock collar would have ruined her.

Renee

[Journey]

He already knew what down was so I used a shock collar set on 2 to make him down. Worked like a charm. If a dog is going to abuse stock like that I will get a down!

After the second day I never had to use it again. I definatly dont think it was abusing the dog on 2.

 

Obviously he didn't know what a down was in that situation....was this in a round pen? An open field? Was it the first exposure? Sorry but there are more humane ways to "teach". Life and death behaviors may warrant an E-Collar nothing else imo.

[Amelia]

I've seen one dog in the last few years that benefitted, and that was a very large dog that liked to back bite sheep. I ran the collar, the handler worked him, and Mr Electric Sheep occurred when he grabbed on. Will that dog ever be a fantastic herding dog on the Open field? no. But we knew that, and weighed out the benefits and risks in a rational manner. It worked for that situation.

 

So, following your logic, using a shock is beneficial if you have a large dog that front bites sheep, top or bottom bites sheep, side bites sheep, high and low bites sheep, or head and tail bites sheep.

 

When we first started out training he would do a all out attack on the cattle. Very abusive to them. He already knew what down was so I used a shock collar set on 2 to make him down.

 

So, you had a down, except when the dog was on stock. You tortured your dog because you don't know what a down is, the operative word being "you."

 

These are nothing more than excuses for using a shock collar when; a. you refuse to admit you don't know how to properly train a dog, b. you refuse to get help from someone who does, and c. you receive personal satisfaction from abusing a dog that you don't know how to train.

 

Stop letting others torture your dogs people. Stop torturing your dogs. When they pull out the shock collar, stow your wallet and drive away.

[Lenajo]

Amelia it's easy to lump everyone together. Not helpful, but easy. Like making the assumption that if someone deciding that if the collar works for one special issue that it should, or will, be used for all others.

 

We looked at a lot of options with the dog in question I described, plus worked with an experienced behaviorist who was very comfortable with the ins and out of proper sheep work. The correction only needed to be delivered twice that day, and once on a repeat day and the behavior was gone. The dog still wasn't perfect, won't ever be, but we accomplished the goal. A single very dangerous behavior was stopped so that the owner, can, as best to her ability train the dog.

 

The dog had already been worked by 2 other very experienced, multiple trial winning open handlers in regards to his issues. Both of which hit him so hard with the stock stick that his face bruised and swollen, and at one point staggering. One of the other handlers put him on a drag line and damaged his throat enough so he coughed for several days.

 

eta - I don't have a problem at all with physical correction, my point is that it had been tried to well past the limit of appropriate. It wasn't getting through to the dog, so escalating it was only going to cause physical harm with no benefit.

 

So what was more effective with the least stress to dog and sheep? In that individual situation (which was what I clearly described, not an overall training philosophy) it was appropriate imo. Each trainer has to make a case by case decision.

 

In truth I think that ever one of us did the best we could with the dog. All of us, 2 actually did, to borrow from Karen Pryor "shoot the dog" as basically they told the owner "don't bother". I decided to look at it from another angle. She wanted to work the dog, the dog had some talent and enjoyed the work.

 

I've been very clear that in most situations the collar is not worth it, causing more issues than it fixes. I don't think it is a good _teaching_ tool because it's too absolute, too powerful. I do think for extinction - behaviors that have no good in them - it is a useful tool after all reasonable options have been exhausted. As others have pointed out - car chasing, fence jumping, etc. - would be in that catagory.

[JLP]

So, you had a down, except when the dog was on stock. You tortured your dog because you don't know what a down is, the operative word being "you."

These are nothing more than excuses for using a shock collar when;

I dont agree he was tortured and why would you say he was you wasnt there, I was and it defiantly wasnt torture.

a. you refuse to admit you don't know how to properly train a dog. <--- I disagree with that I totally admit I dont know how to properly train a dog to your standards.

b. you refuse to get help from someone who does <--------Yea unless they move closer to me, I sure aint driving a hour for someone to show me.

c. you receive personal satisfaction from abusing a dog that you don't know how to train. <-------- I sure didnt abuse my dog, nor wouldn't. I kinda like my dog

 

 

Obviously he didn't know what a down was in that situation....was this in a round pen? An open field? Was it the first exposure? Sorry but there are more humane ways to "teach". Life and death behaviors may warrant an E-Collar nothing else imo.

 

He knew what a down was in that situation he just perferred to attack the cows. It was in a open field, I train on the job just as alot of other farmers do. It was the first few exposures to stock actually. He would just full out attack mode and pay no attention to me.

[Sue R]

I've seen some of the same dogs trained with shock collars, and then half a year after the shock collars came off and an intelligent, more humane approach was used for those six months. It was a difference between night and day, between dogs that were nervous, anxious, diving, and dirty gripping, and dogs that had regained confidence, assurance, and trust.

 

The day a clinician told me to put a shock collar on my dog was the last day I attended any one of his clinics.

 

I'm not saying e-collars never have a purpose but I don't believe it's in training stockdogs, and most certainly not Border Collies. A Border Collie gets what it needs from good breeding and good training, and a shock collar has no place in a training or working situation. If the dog has neither inherent ability nor suitable training, then it shouldn't be a stockdog.

 

JMO, but I'll stand by it.

[Laurae]

b. you refuse to get help from someone who does <--------Yea unless they move closer to me, I sure aint driving a hour for someone to show me.

 

Seriously? You admit you don't know how to train a dog but rather than drive a whole hour to get help from someone who does, you decide to it's a heckuvalot easier to shock him (on his first few exposures to stock, no less)?

 

That's awful, imo. If you admit you don't know how to train a dog, you've got no business shocking one in the name of training. The poor dog doesn't really have a chance.

[Sue R]

<--- I disagree with that I totally admit I dont know how to properly train a dog to your standards.

 

I don't know how to train a dog to Open standards or even to high standards, but I believe that's no excuse for using a shock collar. I think there is almost always a better way.

 

<------Yea unless they move closer to me, I sure aint driving a hour for someone to show me.

 

I drive anywhere from three to six hours each way for good instruction. Isn't learning how to handle and train your dog well a reason to drive an hour each way? You and your dog will progress, and your stock will reap the benefit by being treated much better.

 

<-------- I sure didnt abuse my dog, nor wouldn't. I kinda like my dog

 

That's obvious, and I won't say you abused your dog, but I think there are much better ways to train.

 

He knew what a down was in that situation he just perferred to attack the cows. It was in a open field, I train on the job just as alot of other farmers do. It was the first few exposures to stock actually. He would just full out attack mode and pay no attention to me.

 

I think this shows that you could really benefit from some good training sessions or a few clinics with a good instructor.

 

I wasn't there but the vast majority of Border Collies don't "prefer to attack" stock. They may be nervous, anxious, fearful, inexperienced - all reasons why dogs may chase, dive, and grip inappropriately. It's not "full out attack mode" - it's a dog that is overwhelmed by the situation and unprepared by his/her training. You'd learn this if you decided to train with someone knowledgeable.

 

I hope for the sake of you, your dog(s), and your stock that you do somehow decide that it's worth the effort to learn what you should be doing as a handler/trainer, how the dog needs to be working and learning, and how the two of you can work together to make stockwork less stressful for the stock - that is the point of a good, trained dog and a capable handler.

 

I'm just a person on a farm with a couple of dogs, but I look for every chance I can get to learn what I should be doing to help my dog do what he should be doing for optimal stock handling.

 

edited to add: If you go to a trainer and don't feel comfortable with what they want to do with your dog (or any other dog present), you can always just turn around and go home.

 

As Wendy points out, abuse is abuse, and can be administered in many different ways. Abuse is not justified.

[herdcentral]

Goodness, I am close to getting my first working collie to train on sheep and neither shock collars or beating a dog till it is swollen in the face or staggering, or damaging a throat, like in one of the above posts is going to be any part of any training I do. That makes me feel sick to think of it.

 

I will be quite happy to drive an hour to get some good training from an experienced handler and will happily to spend time on slowly building and proofing the foundations.

[Diana A]

I've very far from an open handler at this stage of my stockdog education, but I've seen enough to know a shock collar is bad idea. I've been to enough clinics and seen enough dogs started by people who know what they're doing, to realize that in the hands of a good trainer, these dogs who may come in gripping and diving and blowing off downs very quickly shape up when they're patiently helped to find a better way of working. They want to do the right thing, and if they have any real ability, they'll recognize and grab onto 'right' when they feel it - a shock collar has no place in training a dog who is trying to do right but simply doesn't understand yet how to get there.

 

Two big problems I see with using a shock collar to cure gripping.

 

One, gripping is a symptom (of lack of confidence, lack of ability, a bad set up for the dog's stage of training, handler error, etc). Even if you do manage to knock off the gripping, it stops the symptom but the underlying problem is still there and may manifest itself in other ways. Much better to get to the root of the problem.

 

Two, is I've seen shock collars used a few times (not in stockwork), and it seems to me that dogs more readily relate the correction to where they were or some particular thing in their environment than they relate it to specifically what they were doing at the time. So there's a huge potential for a lot of weird side effects. Do I want to use a tool that's so powerful it can permanently change the dog's behavior in one or two reps, knowing there may be unintended consequences that may be just as permanent - heck no. It's too big of a risk, especially when there are other better, proven ways of doing things.

 

And if the dog is a hard case and truly nothing else will work - well then I have to question if that dog should even be working stock. How could you ever trust a dog who's true motivation to work correctly is fear of a correction and there's nothing in the dog that wants to do it right for its own sake? Certainly it shouldn't be bred. We don't want dogs who 'need' a shock collar to be trained. I'd rather have that good old fashioned biddability, level-headedness, common sense, and natural talent to make it easy for the dog to recognize and choose the right path when the trainer shows the dog the way.

 

As far as travelling to a trainer - I've driven as much as six hours to get to a good trainer. In exchange for the time spent driving, I learned things that I'll be able to use for the rest of my life in training dogs. Each time I go to someone really good, my dog and I take a huge step up and can build from that higher point. Six hours of driving, compared to several hours (probably more than six) spent muddling along, stuck, not knowing how to fix a problem, and both me and the dog getting frustrated and solidifying bad habits while we wreck our relationship - which would you choose? I'll take the driving any day.

 

Diana Antlitz

[stockdogranch]

One, gripping is a symptom (of lack of confidence, lack of ability, a bad set up for the dog's stage of training, handler error, etc). Even if you do manage to knock off the gripping, it stops the symptom but the underlying problem is still there and may manifest itself in other ways. Much better to get to the root of the problem.

ABSOLUTELY!!

 

A

[PSmitty]

b. you refuse to get help from someone who does <--------Yea unless they move closer to me, I sure aint driving a hour for someone to show me.

 

Seriously? You admit you don't know how to train a dog but rather than drive a whole hour to get help from someone who does, you decide to it's a heckuvalot easier to shock him (on his first few exposures to stock, no less)?

 

That's awful, imo. If you admit you don't know how to train a dog, you've got no business shocking one in the name of training. The poor dog doesn't really have a chance.

 

Amen, Laura. I drive an hour each way to get good instruction. I can't believe someone doesn't think their dogs are worth that.

[Amelia]

To Diana Antlitz; brilliant post. That's it exactly.