juliepoudrier Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Anna, That's what makes training the young ones fun. They give you mental as well as physical exercise! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 And this one is really pushing it! And you're right--I haven't had one push me mentally like this maybe ever. But, when I think all is said and done, she's going to be an unusually good one. She just has so much talent. The trick is to figure out how to get her to do what I need her to do without mucking up all that innate talent. Sue, if brother is at all like her, you're in for a ride! A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 she won't stay there. I have discovered that when I step into the dog, the heads of the sheep in front of me turn that same way, reinforcing that she is correct, and that she is, indeed, "covering" those heads. So when she creeps up a side, I find I need to actually step away from her (which seems really foreign to me), which turns those front sheep's heads away from her, so she will go back to the "center." This one is being really interesting...A What would happen if you used fresher sheep, that turned away from you and gave her some work to do? How about putting her on only a couple of sheep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I've been working her on pretty small groups of sheep, but unfortunately, all of my sheep are relatively dog broke, even the lambs. So I have been using a weird assortment of adults and lambs for her. This morning, a lamb and a ewe (not its mother) broke off running and got a good 75 yards away. She went off in hot pursuit, got behind them and brought them back. That's the second time she's brought back escapees from quite some distance. And she was in full control when she did it, really watching them carefully to make sure she was covering them, as when she got behind they really didn't want to go where she told them. And she brought them at a nice pace. Anyway, the calves are really better for her. I had some pretty dog broke ones (meaning they didn't just run like hell when a dog got back there), and since they don't so much come toward a person, she really learned to cover them nicely, and would find a nice little pace behind them. Then, those calves went to the sale barn, and enter the new batch. They are probably just about ready for her now--they have been so fresh that all they wanted to do was run. This batch has a really nasty, high-headed brangus (with emphasis on the BR- part) that doesn't like ANYBODY. So she's really fun to work. Anyway, I think this group is now ready for the little one, so I'll try her on them this evening. But, yes, small groups for her for now. She's just too frustrating on a bigger group, as she's always sliding up to see where the heads of the front ones are. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 I have noticed that the older the trainer gets the more motivated he or she seems to develop techniques that don't involve running after/at dogs. Through the grapevine I have been hearing that in his recent clinics, for instance, Kevin Evan's training methods can involve quite a bit of running. Now who would have imagined that... Which is why they "invented" Importing dogs:@) ... let the young ones do all the running to train them and I can run them. I use to LOVE starting puppies but "those days are gone forever" :@) Although I have to admit I AM enjoying this one :~) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcollie Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 The young one I'm working does something I've never had one do, at least to this extent. She is REALLY watching their heads--the head of the lead sheep. Ok. That's good. But she watches them so closely, to such a precise degree, that even though they are right in front of me as I am walking backwards, if their heads are not exactly 100% straight ahead, she's creeping up a side to tuck their heads in. Hey ... we should get together ... I've got one that won't look and you have you that won't stop looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 And this one is really pushing it! And you're right--I haven't had one push me mentally like this maybe ever. But, when I think all is said and done, she's going to be an unusually good one. She just has so much talent. The trick is to figure out how to get her to do what I need her to do without mucking up all that innate talent. Sue, if brother is at all like her, you're in for a ride! A You know I am scared already that I'll mess him up. Meanwhile, he's messing with my mind on a daily basis. Hey, wait, that's no joke - it's true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 I am hoping in the next 18 months to move on to my own bit of land, likely around 50 or so acres, maybe more if all goes to plan. I currently have 2 ACDS and a Barbie collie that I do agility and obedience with. My interest in herding has been stimulated by these boards and I am hoping to train myself a nice little working Border collie. My only experience with herding was many years ago with cattle and ACDS and my job was primarily with the horses. I really look forward to this and this board is a great resource. I know nothing about choosing a working Border so one day when the time arrives I will really apreciate the words of wisdom on these boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Which is why they "invented" Importing dogs:@) ... let the young ones do all the running to train them and I can run them. I use to LOVE starting puppies but "those days are gone forever" :@) Although I have to admit I AM enjoying this one :~) Ah, I love the young dogs and the running. It's a good weight loss program. Then again, come and ask me again after I top the next hill and things start falling apart - bet my story will change. Oh wait, things are already falling apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Okay, Laura, and how old are you and how old am I? And it's not just the age, it's the mileage! You do the chasing and I'll do the supervising. Hey, wait, maybe that's why I am such a porker! I like what I read the other day - if your dog is overweight, you are not getting enough exercise. That reminds me, time to walk the dogs and mineral the cows. About things falling apart - if you can't hold it together with duct tape and baling twine, it can't be fixed. That's another one of my problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 There are a few skills that I must have in a farm dog that are never tested on a trial field. One is to be able to walk at my side or heels through a field of lambing ewes, doing nothing until told to do it. Another is to hold a single (ideally without his teeth, but with them if need be) solidly enough that I can catch it. Another is to turn off the power while I'm working on a ewe so that she can relax. Sometimes this means backing off far enough that she can still see him, but where he's outside of her fight or flight zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 There are a few skills that I must have in a farm dog that are never tested on a trial field. I've had a couple that would help me by encouraging ewes/does to bond with orphans or lambs/kids they didn't particularly want. Not testable under trial circumstances, but has saved several lambs/kids over the years. Isn't the real purpose for these dogs to work on the farm/ranch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 There are a few skills that I must have in a farm dog that are never tested on a trial field. I've had a couple that would help me by encouraging ewes/does to bond with orphans or lambs/kids they didn't particularly want. Not testable under trial circumstances, but has saved several lambs/kids over the years. Isn't the real purpose for these dogs to work on the farm/ranch? I love volunteering to help and watching a good trial, and admire those who do well at that particular test of the dogs' (and handlers') abilities. But I don't think we should ever lose sight of the fact that the real purpose for these dogs must be to be useful on the farm or ranch. Otherwise, if not farm/ranch work but trialing per se is the ultimate goal, then it's nothing but another dog sport, derived from useful work but only a sport nevertheless. Thanks, Bill and Pam, for reminding me of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted July 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 There are a few skills that I must have in a farm dog that are never tested on a trial field. I've had a couple that would help me by encouraging ewes/does to bond with orphans or lambs/kids they didn't particularly want. Not testable under trial circumstances, but has saved several lambs/kids over the years. Isn't the real purpose for these dogs to work on the farm/ranch? I am so happy that you have mentioned tasks that are not part of the trial, and thank you for mentioning again that the original and real purpose is the farm/ranch work. The skills above-lambing work, etc.- probably can not be taught during training (I am guessing?), but rather are skills that are learned through day-to-day experience. On a personal note, and one completely unrelated to this thread, I took Jack to see Vergil Holland for a lesson on Sunday at Kate Ash's place. Kate and Dal were outstanding hosts, and their property is beautiful. I was so impressed by the knowledge of those in attendance, and -not to sound like a groupie, but I think I may be- I was particularly awestruck by Vergil. Being a beginner, and having read his book, I was so thrilled to have the opportunity to learn from him. What an experience! We started from scratch in the small pen, and Vergil worked him. I think Jack brought new meaning to the term "freelance gripping". However, he did settle in after a bit, and it all came together nicely. He finally got to go to his sheep, and he is a different dog because of it! I loved it, and so did Jack. Thanks to everyone for helping Jack and I- we are now on our way! Karrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Wow Karrin, that's wonderful! Bill, those skills aren't formally tested in a trial, but if you trial on enough sheep, the dog will use what they learn there. This is not the voice of personal experience, but from a long-time observer. Walking without bothering the sheep is a basic one. Many trainers say that if you can't do this, your dog isn't ready to trial. I was at a trial once where the judge, from overseas, demanded a rather higher level of shedding than usual. The ewe had to be walked off under very tight control until she was committed to the direction the dog was taking her. A dog that could "hold" rather than accomplishing this with physical distance, would get the shed faster. Watching the pen with range sheep is a real treat. It's there that I can, as a novice, see the nuances of "power on/power off" that are probably obvious to old hands all around the course. The dog has to convince the sheep that the pen is not a trap, that the dog can be trusted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 8, 2009 Report Share Posted July 8, 2009 Good for you! Not every trainer is the right one for you or your dog. Not every handler would the right one for your dog, and not every dog would be the right one for you. I'm glad you have found training that appears to suit you and your dog, and fulfill your expectations concerning what you want to learn. And, yes, I am a dreadful "Big Hat" groupie myself and find that most all of them are kind, caring, friendly, and helpful folks. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnandreturn Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 One thing I would say about the dog first then stock or stock first and then get a dog is that if the person learns to work stock without a dog first and then gets a dog to help it has been my experience they end up better than vice versa. It is amazing how much you start to think when you begin to run out of air because you are trying to force sheep or cattle rather than work them. Also it used to really frustrate me when a farmer didn't want to use dogs to work stock. I learned that many are just thinking about getting the job done and are not interested in all the nuances of working a dog and keeping it good and working correctly. They just want the sheep in. They have a different mentality. Even though it was so obvious to me that if they would just put a little effort into trying to understand the dogs and how to work them their job would be easier. They mostly just don't think that way. It is about like trying to get another breed of dog to work like Border Collies. It won't work. You people on this forum are here because you are keen to work your dogs and understand all the finer points of training and dog psychology and become sheep whisperers! Also there is the problem of what gets judged at Trials. What is accepted as correct working and what would be really correct in a true test of a dog on sheep. Many times they are really far apart. What Bill Fosher said about a dog walking through sheep and not being "on" and paying attention to the "farmer" is sort of like going to the post. If you have to lead your dog then you don't have the dog mentally. There is some part of that in there maybe. Lots of farm chores do contribute to a great trial dog. Many things we take for granted and seem so trivial until you go to the trial and realize you don't have that. A great friend of mine said once that most people refer to a damn stupid sheep, cow or horse just after they got outsmarted by one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted July 19, 2009 Report Share Posted July 19, 2009 One thing I would say about the dog first then stock or stock first and then get a dog is that if the person learns to work stock without a dog first and then gets a dog to help it has been my experience they end up better than vice versa. It is amazing how much you start to think when you begin to run out of air because you are trying to force sheep or cattle rather than work them. ......A great friend of mine said once that most people refer to a damn stupid sheep, cow or horse just after they got outsmarted by one! I just have a small flock (15 now with the brand new triplets !) but I really enjoy what practical work we can do. My partner though, who is very decent as a dog trainer and has done really well with his first border collie- still is learning not to force the issue. I can't help but pick at him because it seems so obvious to me, who has had many years of livestock experience (first with horses, then cattle/sheep) what he should be doing. I would say that learning not to blame the stock is also a hard thing for many to grasp. I have two ewes in particular that will teach your dog honest flanks or you will never, ever get them penned. No chance at all, they will squirt out of any hole. They are my favorites to work, because I can teach so much to the dog naturally but I get many complaints about "That stupid sheep". Hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Also there is the problem of what gets judged at Trials. What is accepted as correct working and what would be really correct in a true test of a dog on sheep. Many times they are really far apart. I'm interested in this comment because I've heard it so often but I don't see it myself in judging my daily chore work (not demanding admittedly) and comparing that with my trial experiences. What I see good judges doing is rewarding dogs who have correct flanks, pace, and control of their sheep. What I find in doing chore work is that whereas I might settle for less than this when trying to get something done in a hurry, I'm usually sorry for doing so. Proper flanks, pace, and control get any job done quicker and easier (on sheep and shepherd) in the long run. I'll give you an example. The most common comment I hear is that trial dogs can't execute a proper gather and that judges "reward" over-commanding during the outwork. However, my experience has always been (while running and while clerking for judges) that a dog that leaves a handler's feet, executes a proper outrun, lifts the sheep with authority and control, and brings them straight to the handler's feet with few or no commands will always score better than one who does not. So, what is it that you are seeing being judged as correct work at trials that you would consider poor work on the farm? Pearse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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