Carson Crazies Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 All glibness aside, I dunno. I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I had a farm and Zippy (the Pap) was all I had... I might would consider looking to train him to work my stock (this is assuming he had some ability to work, which he decidedly does not, and assuming I'd never had a real working dog before). I can understand the "use the dog you have" or the breed you have mentality. IF I had a dog that had retained some sort of stock working inclination and it were possible to "do herding" with said dog, it would make for a more fulfilling life for us both, AND it didn't heap undue stress on the stock I would probably consider it. Shoot, that's how I *started out* until I realized I wanted so much more than that. If the neo-trainers are finding a way to let people do some stockwork with their dogs - and the people have no more expectations that what they're getting and the stock, handlers, and dogs aren't under undue stress then I'm not sure this is a terrible thing. As long as they're not out there breeding border collies because of it I'm not sure I really take offense to it. Oh, and also as long as the trainers are willing to say to them (as one kindly did to me) "I think this dog has reached it's potential more or less" and then let me decide what to do from there. Then again maybe that's not good business, and maybe the potential trainees don't want more. Geez, it's an endless circle of "If's" isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 As someone who found herself throwing hot dog pieces at Rottie to keep it working- I think I might be a neo-trainer on somedays . Long story short- hay here is 14-$18/bale depending on the time of year and there is no pasture. So I do some "herding" on the side, and it really is "herding" and not practical work. Most people come for just one or two times and they are thrilled to see what their dog can do and see the sheep (lambs are always a big hit) and my dogs work. Some continue to come out based on that alone and as long as the dog is not harming anything and is pleasant to work with, I don't mind although it can get a little boring/head banging at times. What can I say, it helps pay the bills. But others, such as a sheltie I've worked with for almost two years now and is quite well trained, if a little bit of a pill !, can be very rewarding. The difference being though that I've worked the sheltie myself until she was solid on fetching, flanks and a stop and only now is her owner starting to work her regularly, with alot of progress. That dog is really keen to work though and has some natural talent. Her owner does not have interest in trialing, only wants her (very) driven and keen dog to get to work. Luckily, she also has a good practical sense that the dog needs corrections and we don't worry alot about hurting her feelings . There is no one in my area at all, not within 4 hours that offers any type of sheepdog work on a regular basis. Especially living in such an urban area, I'm happy to expose at least some people (more than the dogs) to stockmanship and we usually talk about the sheep and raising them to eat, etc. It's an opportunity to dispel the myths about herding (no, cat chasing is not good herding instinct) and in the case of border collie owners, open their eyes to what the dogs are truly capable of. Do most people take it seriously and get good work out of their dogs? No- probably not. But a few do and even move on to get better dogs after they get bit by the bug. I know a few top handlers now that started with other breeds or less than ideal border collies. Had no one been willing to work with them, they might never been introduced to the sport. I don't believe though in telling people their dogs can do more than they are capable to do and I will not work with most mixes or non-herding breeds, or dogs with some obscure history of herding (like Akitas "herding" fishes into nets"- sorry I call BS on that!). I don't tolerate harrassing the sheep and if I feel the dog is truly not working, I won't put up with it. The Rottie I mentioned at the beginning, started ok- had a little talent and really "liked" the sheep and was not at all aggressive. But he was older and very heavy and physically unable to do it and became less willing to stay with it towards the end. I even offered to refund their last lesson (I have people pre-pay for four, otherwise I find myself stood up with no hay $$!). But they wanted me to finish it and do what I could with him, hence the hot dogs ! Whatever- even the sheep liked that dog and would let him walk within the flock (so he could get closer to me and the hot dogs I guess.). Comical, not hurting anything, but I wouldn't let them renew their next block of lessons- just not right to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberviewfarm Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I think I will just take back what I said and move on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I think some of this was covered in the other thread, but I believe neo-trainers probably use different/innovative/whatever methods because it appeals to their clientele AND it works for dogs with no innate talent or instinct, especially with owners who don't really have any idea of what stockwork should look like. I really don't have a problem with other breeds, and especially non-herding breeds, being exposed to stockwork if it's done in a manner that doesn't stress the livestock (or the dog). I certainly don't see the point in tossing food or smearing peanut butter or anything like that--to me that's just being disingenuous about the work that's actually required to handle stock. And I think that's where the question of ethics comes in. I understand people needing to support their farms, and since being unemployed, I've had people tell me I should swallow my pride and take on some of those other breeds for training, but I think a trainer really should be honest about each individual dog's potential. If the owner wants to continue on, despite an honest, negative assessment, well it's their money and as long as no stock are being harmed and the trainer doesn't mind, then I wouldn't care. BUT, when all these other breeds are being trained and their owners are being led to believe there's something there that really isn't there, then I think it's an unethical approach. But we all know that ethics can't really be forced on folks who don't have them. (And this is not directed at anyone in particular. I've seen trainers who have basically told a student that their dog is pretty hopeless and yet the student wants to continue, and that's not the fault of the trainer.) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Becca asked: "But I dare you to ask it where you WILL find the neo-herders. You know what I mean!" Where is that? I would like to know, too. Erders-Hell? Julie said: "I believe neo-trainers probably use different/innovative/whatever methods because it appeals to their clientele AND it works for dogs with no innate talent or instinct, especially with owners who don't really have any idea of what stockwork should look like." That and not having to run. Not having to run is about the best reason I can think of. Not having to run has my complete and earnest sympathy. Not having to run is why I make people work their own dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberviewfarm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ok I can't resist.... Julie - Does this all mean if you would just put my rescue on a darn leash and lead him around he would get the idea? What the heck did I go out and get new dogs for them HA HA HA ok, I'm done now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Um, Kelly, it would be YOUR responsibility to lead your own dog around the stock! Oh, wait, are you PAYING for this privelege? If so, bring him on! lol! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberviewfarm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 But I really learn by watching....I mean if I watch you lead him I might understand better so I can do it at home... Or we could just do what we have been doing with him....having him as a house pet because that is what he is best suited for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ooh, Kelly - come HERE and I will be GLAD to lead him around for you. He's so sweet and tries so hard. I'll give him a title, too - let's call it the "Heeling Herding Championship." Hee-hee - and I'll give you a discount for the privilege! Come get your HHChs here! Those other places only give you ONE "H"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I think perhaps many of the neo-trainers have convinced a following that their methods are better than the old ways and these followers most of whom are new of course have no idea about traditional methods. They are solid in their belief and they are sticking to it. Just over a year ago when I first moved east I was invited to join a group of farm folks who all had dogs they wanted to train for stock work. There was about 15 people and dogs. They hired a trainer from Michigan and payed her quite a sum to come out every Sunday. Perhaps I misunderstood but in every case the trainer would walk along with the dog owner with the dog on a leash behind the stock. They did this each in turn. When it was my turn I rejected the trainers help and sent my dog off leash on an out-run to fetch the stock. I will make this short. I was rejected from this group by the trainer and the dog owners and I heard many negative comments about my approach. I was invited back some months later and the entire group was still doing the same thing. Not one dog had progressed beyond following the stock and any dog that showed some spirit and wanted to go was held back. Not one owner had progressed beyond walking their dog around behind the stock. Yet, this group of people is completely convinced that this new revolutionary method is the only way to go and they are willing to pay a trainer to lead them down this path. I became aware later that all of these folks were into AKC and believed that AKC was the authority on herding dogs. My old traditional methods were out-dated. All those great traditional handlers and breeders I had learned from were out of date and wrong. Perhaps there is a huge following of newbees out there that have a very different view of what herding training is all about from sources like AKC and they firmly believe that these new revolutionary methods are the way of the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberviewfarm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Ok, Becca then he will be titled. WOW!! But your gonna have to really try hard, because he does actually want to go around the sheep...and around...and around...and around.....so that walking behind them is going to be difficult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 All I gotta say is that if we're all going to become new age trainers we need a rule that we don't steal one another's clients. Kelly, I'm sure I can come up with a way better title and a much nicer certificate than Becca ever could! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Oh BOY! If we're doing titling I'm bringing June. Maybe I can carry a thing of string cheese in my pocket too. That and not having to run. Not having to run is about the best reason I can think of. Not having to run has my complete and earnest sympathy. Not having to run is why I make people work their own dogs. Oh, but running is good exercise - and so you can eat more. That's why I keep finding myself with young dogs. *sigh* Need to lose weight? Get a young dog going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 All I gotta say is that if we're all going to become new age trainers we need a rule that we don't steal one another's clients. Better yet? We can get a new-age conglomerate going. It'll be like one of those progressive dinners, right? They can come to me and I can teach them their dry commands in my tiny back yard. Oh, wait, wait, even better? I can teach them their herding (gack) commands by flanking them around my house. Then they go to one of you next to learn to walk on a leash behind the sheep, and then to the next to get their title. I crack me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 All glibness aside, I dunno. I'm sitting here thinking to myself that if I had a farm and Zippy (the Pap) was all I had... I might would consider looking to train him to work my stock (this is assuming he had some ability to work, which he decidedly does not, and assuming I'd never had a real working dog before). I can understand the "use the dog you have" or the breed you have mentality. IF I had a dog that had retained some sort of stock working inclination and it were possible to "do herding" with said dog, it would make for a more fulfilling life for us both, AND it didn't heap undue stress on the stock I would probably consider it. Shoot, that's how I *started out* until I realized I wanted so much more than that. If the neo-trainers are finding a way to let people do some stockwork with their dogs - and the people have no more expectations that what they're getting and the stock, handlers, and dogs aren't under undue stress then I'm not sure this is a terrible thing. As long as they're not out there breeding border collies because of it I'm not sure I really take offense to it. Oh, and also as long as the trainers are willing to say to them (as one kindly did to me) "I think this dog has reached it's potential more or less" and then let me decide what to do from there. Then again maybe that's not good business, and maybe the potential trainees don't want more. Geez, it's an endless circle of "If's" isn't it? Agreed! But you knew I would, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I crack me up. You may crack you up, but you just about shatter me! By the way, we used to have an Airedale that was super on hogs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 There ya go - progressive herdiing traing. Sounds great! Very modern. House herding first at Laura's. Kelly will handle leash training since once she's broken her boy of circling she'll be an Expert. Then they will come here to get that HHCh. Then Julie's for the Shiny Herding Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timberviewfarm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Yes I get a part in this!! I mean people will really think they are going places if we keep moving them up to different people. We just have to come up with the infomercial and DVD set for at home viewing of our training methods before they come, I mean it won't really show them ANYTHING just enough for them to want US. Yes, we better patent this before someone else steals our idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Back to the question of "why" the typical dog owner might want to try herding - my answer is why not? If they go no fruther than 1 lesson they learn about limits - i.e. no matter what I pay the instructor cannot make my Lassie brave or useful if she doesn't have it in her This is the only part of your post that I disagree with. I think they often DON'T learn about limits, because somehow, incredibly enough, they don't see that the dog isn't brave or isn't useful. Partly because the point where usefulness or bravery would be unmistakably shown is always in the future, and partly because people see what they want to see. Take a look at DTrain's post (#35), which I am tempted to put all in boldface because it's such a good illustration of what's going on, to see what I mean. And very, very few trainers will tell students their dog just doesn't have it, not just because they'd risk losing a paying customer, but because it's hard to dash people's hopes and see their disappointment. You really hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph, IMO: Back to traditional training - I think the new people are being programed to not like it as is because of the presentation of "new scientifically designed humane training". There are also a lot of the gurus of this mindset who openly talk about "abusive" training and use herding as an example. All of them are terribly afraid of discipline imo, and even more afraid of finding out that they aren't as control of thier fur children as they think when they get out of their SeaWorld tank full of cookies. After all they made their living out of promoting these dogs under terms such as "lemon brains". If they really aren't, then are the the herding people are promoting geniuses and they holding hostages? I've talked to a number of newbies, both refugees from the neos and committed disciples, who've told me stories their trainers told them about the abusive herding folks, including lurid details that I know to a certainty are not true. And yes, you budding entrepreneurs are all cracking me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 This is the only part of your post that I disagree with. I think they often DON'T learn about limits, because somehow, incredibly enough, they don't see that the dog isn't brave or isn't useful. Partly because the point where usefulness or bravery would be unmistakably shown is always in the future, and partly because people see what they want to see. Take a look at DTrain's post (#35), which I am tempted to put all in boldface because it's such a good illustration of what's going on, to see what I mean. And very, very few trainers will tell students their dog just doesn't have it, not just because they'd risk losing a paying customer, but because it's hard to dash people's hopes and see their disappointment. There are instructors that can, and do, comment on a dog's herding potential and not insult the dog itself - most of the time anyway. And if you are honest with the student and open the dialog then you might find that they are happy with minimal progress because they enjoy what they can get out of the dog. And that comes back to deciding if the sheep are being harmed or stressed by this. Sometimes it does come down to money - after all the sheep need hay and trainer's should be reimbursed for effort made - but I hope it's never so all about money to the point that the typical instructor puts integrity after payment. I can hope..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I think they often DON'T learn about limits, because somehow, incredibly enough, they don't see that the dog isn't brave or isn't useful. Not only because it's in the future, but because it's not really IMPORTANT. I think the importance of these qualities only becomes apparent when something needs to be done (through hard work). When I'm working my dog/sheep 1/2 mile from my house, without fences, and next to a (relatively) busy country road, I can't have a dog that acts silly, runs back to the house when pressured, or quits before the job is done. I think it's then that you realize how important having a good (or at least decent) dog is. Also, I know several people have written about how "farmers" might want to try out "what they've got", but my experience (in talking with my farmer neighbors/friends - sheep are not our only or even primary source of income) is that farmers simply don't/won't have the time to waste with a dog that won't/can't do the job. I have have seen many different outcomes of this view . . . Finally, I do think that there are times when a young dog is learning when sheep are stressed. I think this is warranted when the situation is not allowed to persist and when the final objective is safe and controlled handling of the stock . . . Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Someone got a good business lawyer? Oddly, I've been to a multitude of trainers with a multitude of dogs that were not the right dogs for what I do, and have had great counseling about where the limits of the dogs and my abilities were. Sometimes it's about what the dogs are capable of, remembering that I do actually raise sheep in a more or less commercial way. A good dog for a weekend warrior might fall to pieces here (sigh, and has). Thankfully I've gotten great advice before dogs or people get hurt. More often it's about dogs with natures that are too complex for someone with limited access to training to handle. I'm thankful for that now! Maybe it's because I'm annoying and people are glad for an excuse to dismiss me? But then I keep showing up with another dog. The best decision I ever made was to stop fooling around with random dogs and get a pup that really had potential. I'll never stray from that again. But again, I've got limited space and a very specific need. If I didn't have sheep (and kids) I might still be messing around with my first dog who's still alive, Trim, who wasn't too awful under the right circumstances. She's only ten and is still running hard in her bird working job at the naval base. So in that case I'd probably be one of those annoying people who persist in spite of advice to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Becca, I think the difference is that you have your own sheep, so you already know when things aren't working as they should. Your dog's ability has a direct impact on your sheep/livelihood, so it's a bit more obvious when a dog's training isn't progressing like you need it to. It's easier for a trainer to be honest with you--a dog without ability is not only not going to help you do what you need it to do, you're going to be able to tell that after a while on your own. But for newbie weekend warriors with no sheep, with no clear idea of how sheep are supposed to act anyway and no real need for the dog to be doing anything in particular with the sheep, things get a bit murkier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Also, I know several people have written about how "farmers" might want to try out "what they've got", but my experience (in talking with my farmer neighbors/friends - sheep are not our only or even primary source of income) is that farmers simply don't/won't have the time to waste with a dog that won't/can't do the job. I have have seen many different outcomes of this view . . . *nods* I've had several farmers recently (both full time and hobby farmers) come to me to say that they've either thought about or have tried using what they've got - to varying results. One came to the conclusion that while he had to use what he's got for now he'd like a better dog in the future. The others either concluded that the dogs they had wouldn't/couldn't be trained to be useful, or they didn't have the time or know-how to do so in the other cases. But they considered it. One of them dedided that he WOULD like to have a dog in the future - but a decent dog, and one he doesn't have to train himself. It's not that much of a stretch for me to see how someone could *consider* using what they've got. The key difference here I think is that when the work is essential then the what you've got matters more. But for newbie weekend warriors with no sheep, with no clear idea of how sheep are supposed to act anyway and no real need for the dog to be doing anything in particular with the sheep, things get a bit murkier. Yup. It didn't start to become clear to me until I was farm-sitting for someone and was faced with a situation where some lambs (cheviots) had gotten out and I didn't have a good dog to help me with any of it. Editing to add: I would imagine that when the day comes that I have my own stock again (and on my own property) my idea of what I need and want in a dog will probably change again. It could change tomorrow when I'm faced with new challenges, for that matter. Also, I think alot of folks just aren't interested in seeing their dogs limitations - even when they're presented clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 I would like to say something here. I am surely out of place, because I do not have the knowledge and experience that all of you do. But since you all have given me such great advice, I would like to offer something in return that I think you have possibly overlooked in your neo-herding business plan: the online herding course. Now, because of my previous familiarity with herding, I am *hoping* to apply my life experience towards a Master of Herding degree, and I think that it could be worth at least 3.5 credits. I think that eventually, I could offer my services to you as a Professor of Online Herding (P.o.O.H.). Because you have all been so kind to me in the past, I would offer my services to you for a reduced rate. I am very good with a video camera, so I hope that you will consider this as possibility for your business. I think it could work. Karrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.