Starting a dog

[dracina]

I can see how refusing to go around the sheep is a possibility with the leash method, and definitely something to be aware of. I do know that my trainer's dogs do not have a problem with gathering, or they would certainly not be running in Open. But, again, I am uncertain if they were trained using this method. I do know that she has also had students go on to trial; at what level, I am unsure.

[Pam Wolf]

If you don't understand a method, then you shouldn't use it. If you do, then don't blame the method, but blame the person using it wrong.

[juliepoudrier]

Just to clarify here, since Bobby Dalziel's name has been mentioned numerous times--we're not really talking about Bobby's methods are we? Aren't we really discussing Marc Christopher's methods? I ask because that may be the cause of some of the confusion too, since most of us immediately think of the way Bobby trains with a long line when I think we're really talking about a different method.

 

Pam,

The whole point of this discussion really seems to be about the potential of a novice to use the method wrong. From what I've read about Marc's method, you really need to *know* where the dog should be in relation to the sheep if you're going to apply this method correctly to train the dog. He calls it making the right easy, but as far as I can tell, it's really about making the dog right, period. That will work for someone who knows stock and dogs well, but I imagine not so much with a newbie. Dracina commented that newbies can make mistakes using any method, and she's right, but it seems to me that if you are working with a dog's natural instincts, then the dog is going to be somewhat capable of compensating for the beginner hander's mistakes. I don't quite see how it's possible for a beginner to take a dog on a line and know when the dog is in the correct spot on the circle or at the correct distance from the sheep whether on a circle or line, and it's for that reason, since the dog is not being allowed to work naturally, that I think the line method may be more problematic in the hands of a novice than the more traditional methods of training. JMO, of course, but I know when I was first starting out I would have been at a loss to be able to tell the dog where it needed to be to be correct, but since I wasn't physically connected to the dog, the dog could help show *me* where it needed to be....

 

J.

[Pam Wolf]

Just to clarify here, since Bobby Dalziel's name has been mentioned numerous times--we're not really talking about Bobby's methods are we? Aren't we really discussing Marc Christopher's methods? I ask because that may be the cause of some of the confusion too, since most of us immediately think of the way Bobby trains with a long line when I think we're really talking about a different method.

 

Then we ARE talking differnent methods apparently. I have NEVER seen Marc train so I am not qualified to speak on his methods. I have met him and seen him run dogs. I have worked with a few dogs screwed up by his methods. But I was speaking of the way Bobby uses a long line. Apparently Marc says some of the same things. The wrong use of the long line is the reason why I hated it for 20 years, but seeing it used properly I love it. Not all long line use is bad. The inference in the posts is that ALL long line use is bad. This is not true. People can use any method wrong, it is not the method at fault, but the person using it.

[Denise Wall]

We've been down this whole line of discussion before, some people get it, some don't, some dogs get it, some don't.

 

Deb

 

Here's the thing, I want to see some of these people who "get" this method of thinking it's not important for dogs to develop their gathering instinct to the fullest because it's assumed to hardwired anyway, walk the walk. I mean the real walk.

 

Although trials are not the be all end all of a border collie's work, let me pose this scenario. The greatest trial IMO that I've ever run in was Leo and Joanne Woodbury's in WY. The outrun was about 900 yards with five fresh range sheep (each run) that had never seen a dog. The fetch had a 200 yard blind gully and the wind was usually blowing so hard the dogs could not hear any commends on the entire outrun, lift or fetch. It was essentially a 900 yard silent gather. To see a dog run out well, bring those tough, tough sheep straight down that fetch and come up from that blind gully dead on straight to the handler, well, that's it for me. That is instinct and talent allowed to develop to its full potential. When it gets as hard as it gets, you *show* me it doesn't matter.

[juliepoudrier]

^^And I think this is the very reason someone asked at least Debbie if she does anything other than arena trials. And it's also the reason I asked earlier in this thread of anyone knew of top handlers in this country who were successfully using this technique.

 

The inference in the posts is that ALL long line use is bad. This is not true.

Pam,

We must be reading a different thread (maybe you're on Debbie's planet? ) because I think several people, myself included, have clearly stated that we can see some uses for a line (I even had someone suggest a line to me to work with my clappy dog). The arguments are 1. whether a novice is equipped to use a line properly since I think part of using the line successfully is knowing stock and knowing what correct work looks like, not to mention impeccable timing and 2. disgreement with at least some comments regarding the relative lack of importance of the gather/fetch by people who are proponents of using a line.

 

J.

[btrent]

I do agree with this advice; as I said, I am happy with my instructor and not looking to switch. But, I also think that putting on blinders and not looking at other methods is not a responsible approach, either. I may be a novice, but I take handling seriously, and want to be well-informed so that I can continue to improve. Not that you are implying otherwise, but I just want to be clear about my intentions.

 

Sorry, I did not intend to imply that you were one of those folks who is going from trainer to trainer. It's just hard when a person is a beginner to know what is good advice and what is not (been there, done that, years ago, and learned the very hard way...) ...and sometimes I think people go from one trainer to the next looking for a magic answer. In fact it's true that we click with some instructors and not with others...so you have to find what works for you.

 

It's important, as you say, to be well-informed and try to improve. But I think it's also important to know what the end goal is, whether that would be trialling or just working stock for fun or for chores, and that goal involves the dog being loose and being depended on to gather, first and foremost.

 

I did just watch your video and I have to say it is unlike anything I have seen but then I have never watched any of the trainers named in this thread (Christopher, Dalziel).

 

I think (?) you said you also have another dog and it's possible that one method may not work for both.

 

I would suggest that you to go out and audit clinics or observe some of the more "traditional" trainers giving lessons or working their own dogs, who would allow the dog to gather and see what you think of it. Where are you located? Maybe someone can make a suggestion.

 

Just curious; what does your dog do if you let go of the line? Is he a particularly problem dog that has led you to this method?

 

--Billy

[btrent]

PS, to the OP:

 

Have you watched the videos in the other post in this section, "Training Rainey"? They are great examples of gathers that I think most people would consider good training progress for a beginner/intermediate dog.

[PennyT]

" When it gets as hard as it gets, you *show* me it doesn't matter."

 

It matters. I have won Woodbury's and bombed Woodbury's with the same dog. She was never on a line.

 

The only times I use a line are with a wired young dog going around in fairly close quarters so that I can step on the rope--good luck for not becoming the still center of a Maypole dance--and in desperation with dogs that need to learn to drive.

[PennyT]

"Then, I am correct when I assume that it is not generally their natural tendency (as a breed, there may be individual variation, of course) to drive or wear?"

 

Could you explain what you mean by wear?

[Denise Wall]

I didn't win it, but I placed there with Mick the one year I went. I gotta say, I'm more proud of that placing than any other trial placing.

 

There are lots of handlers on this board who do well in these really tough trials. It's a whole different ball game.

 

The thing is, the opportunities to develop each of the skills needed in a finished dog usually present themselves quite naturally over time using the stock pressure if you watch for them.

[bcnewe2]

I might have missed something here like if the op said who her trainer was.

BUT

I did start with MC. He is a very nice guy and knows allot. The video looked exactly like how he starts dogs that attend his clinics.

I went to him for probably 2+ years. I didn't really have a dog to speak of but I kept trying. I never made much progress but at least the dogs and sheep were safe.

I finally broke away from him and started learning so much more.

Not that his methods can't work, but in the wrong hands they seem to not work.

 

Remebering back, I would go to his house for lessons. It was amazing that he didn't start his dogs in the same manner. When I got a dog that had some feel for sheep, he didn't use that method either. If he did, she'd just stop. It kept her from feeling the sheep so she didn't see that it was work.

 

I've often wanted to go back to him just to chat and see if what he was teaching makes more since to me now that I know at least a bit. but I"ve never made it back.

 

I can only say that when starting out, using that method kept me from progressing at the speed I needed. Which is not speedy but at least I want to move forward whenever possible.

 

I will never knock MC. He is amazing at what he does. But he wasn't the trainer for me or my dogs. Others milage may vary.

 

Deb, Haven't you gone to Marc? Even put on clinics with him? isn't he the one that coined the speical hitch with the long lines? I remember buying a speical one made by him. It was a nice long line but the method was just not for me. Took my quite a few years to learn that, as I had heard it wasn't good to switch trainers so I stayed trying to understand what we were doing. If I remember correctly he is about controling the dog and making it right. Guess it works for some but I like the dog trying to make choices and then telling him with pressure if he's wrong. If right, he gets to keep making choices.

 

Oh well....to each there own. I still say, I'd love to see Marc now, just to see if I learned anything that he was trying to teach. OR maybe it was all over my head at that time. As far as I know, he gives all breed clinics and is quite good with the all breed people. Which are the type dogs that need more control as they aren't born with it like a nice bc.

 

JMHO. sorry if I made assumptions that weren't there. And I certainly am not insulting others methods, just stating my opinions and experiences.

[dracina]

It's important, as you say, to be well-informed and try to improve. But I think it's also important to know what the end goal is, whether that would be trialling or just working stock for fun or for chores, and that goal involves the dog being loose and being depended on to gather, first and foremost.

 

 

Just curious; what does your dog do if you let go of the line? Is he a particularly problem dog that has led you to this method?

 

--Billy

 

Hi Billy,

 

My end goal is not necessarily to trial, but to have a reliable, working sheepdog. Trialing would be great, but my primary concern is getting a solid foundation for my dogs and me. So, I am not "training for the trial". That being said, I currently live just outside of Chicago, and my stock work will not begin for at least one to two years. Then, the dogs will work sheep and possibly goats, no cattle.

 

I do not know what my dog would do if he was let off of the line while on sheep, because that has not happened yet. This particular dog, Jack, has actually had some reativity and fear-aggression issues, but has never shown any sign of this behavior while on or near the sheep. In fact, he seems most comfortable on the sheep.

 

However, this is not the reason that we are using this method: my trainer uses this method on both of my dogs (the other has no such issues), and I have seen her use it with others, as well.

 

I do want a dog that can gather. I do want a dog that can drive. I do want a dog that can think on its own. I am not saying that this method will NOT produce that result, nor am I saying for sure that it will. I chose the trainer, not the method; and I chose her because of her successes. I use the method under her tutelage.

 

But, I can say without hesitation that if I would have known that this forum existed before we started training, I certainly would have asked this question then. I think that the discussion about this topic has been incredible.

 

Karrin

[dracina]

"Then, I am correct when I assume that it is not generally their natural tendency (as a breed, there may be individual variation, of course) to drive or wear?"

 

Could you explain what you mean by wear?

 

Hi Penny, what I meant be wear is the side to side movement by the dog to put pressure on both sides of the flock without going around them; which I believe is used to move the sheep forward, while keeping the flock together. I hope that someone will correct me if that is not the proper term.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Wear is the title trial training term for flanking back and forth behind the sheep to maintain the line. Keeping in mind, of course, that one is going to see this quite a bit with plain working dogs that don't use eye much to control stock.

 

Wear is how they'd describe what happens on a very large flock of sheep, or when cattle are being moved, when stronger eyed dogs do have to put pressure on the "corners" or individuals in the group.

 

Dracina, "wear" to us means when the dog is bringing stock and not driving - particularly when the handler is helping control the stock by controlling the "escape route" - usually dog, stock, handler.

 

This is a young dog (my Ted a couple years ago), practicing gathering, short fetches and "wears," and starting a teeny bit of driving I think, at the end (I can't remember and I can't actually see it at the moment).

 

This is Ted earlier this year on much more challenging stock, learning to tuck in stragglers on a drive. Instead of a line, I use the stop to shorten the flanks (Ted's brains fall out his ears on longer flanks under a lot of pressure) and sometimes his name to square him out. To me, this is handier because I can have stuff in my hands and still help Ted out if he's getting in over his head a bit, and of course as in this video it does matter where he, or the flock, are in relation to me and I can still correct and square him out. These are ewes with two to four week old lambs.

 

 

Now that Ted's more confident on the drive, I only need the verbal "rope" to help him if he needs it. But I don't assume he'll need it - first I let him try it out on his own. If he's wrong, I'll stop him and try to make it a bit easier - again, usually by shortening up the flanks, and squaring him out with his name.

 

Denise has some really awesome videos showing the progression of training a youngster she's working on currently. She does a great job explaining the reasoning behind the things she does with the dog and the video is very clear (unlike mine).

 

Youtube is giving me fits tonight or I'd look up her channel - but I bet someone else has the link.

 

ETA: Stilhope YouTube Channel - Training May Series

[PennyT]

You have the meaning right. If someone told you that the natural tendency of the border collie is not to wear, they told you wrong. A dog can move 5 sheep away from a draw without wearing but not 100 unless the sheep already know where they are going and cooperate.Too much wearing is undesirable; too little becomes failure to cover and control sheep.

 

A border collie that moves straight on and doesn't have to be held with commands on a direct path from navigational point to navigational point is usually called a line dog. Having a line dog is a good thing so long as the dog isn't so into the line that it won't flank or won't wear to hold a packet together. At the other end of the spectrum are flanky dogs that are taught or teach themselves to hold a line and not to wear excessively. I tend to think of the latter as having less eye than the former; however, by the time both are trained up amounts of eye become much less distinguishable if the training and the work on stock have gone well and produced a useful dog.

 

I think of wearing as side to side movement either driving or fetching.

 

Penny

[Jeanne Joy]

There is a link to a video of an upright, loose-eyed dog wearing (working back and forth to keep the herd together) behind a large herd of reindeer - 2,000 to be exact- From Herding Buffalo to Reindeer:

 

http://allaboutaussi...lo-to-reindeer/

 

 

All the best,

Jeanne

[dracina]

Hi Kristin,

 

This is very good information from someone who has tried this method first-hand, and for whom the method failed. Thank you for sharing it.

 

I did not mention my trainer's name because I don't think it is fair to mention it if she is not here to explain her theories. However, it is not the person you are speaking of (nor is it Deb, for that matter!) And also because I don't think that it is really relevant, because this person is someone who believes in this method and its results. She is not intentionally using this method as a ruse or to take advantage of anyone- she really believes that this method works, and has a lot of faith in it.

 

As for me, I really hope that I am not doing damage to my dogs, because I would be furious with myself if that turns out to be the case. I said earlier in this discussion that I felt this method could be a feasible option for at least one of my dogs, but after hearing what everyone has to say, I am re-thinking this idea.

 

Karrin

[btrent]

Hi Billy,

 

My end goal is not necessarily to trial, but to have a reliable, working sheepdog. Trialing would be great, but my primary concern is getting a solid foundation for my dogs and me. So, I am not "training for the trial". That being said, I currently live just outside of Chicago, and my stock work will not begin for at least one to two years. Then, the dogs will work sheep and possibly goats, no cattle.

 

I do not know what my dog would do if he was let off of the line while on sheep, because that has not happened yet. This particular dog, Jack, has actually had some reativity and fear-aggression issues, but has never shown any sign of this behavior while on or near the sheep. In fact, he seems most comfortable on the sheep.

 

However, this is not the reason that we are using this method: my trainer uses this method on both of my dogs (the other has no such issues), and I have seen her use it with others, as well.

 

I do want a dog that can gather. I do want a dog that can drive. I do want a dog that can think on its own. I am not saying that this method will NOT produce that result, nor am I saying for sure that it will. I chose the trainer, not the method; and I chose her because of her successes. I use the method under her tutelage.

 

But, I can say without hesitation that if I would have known that this forum existed before we started training, I certainly would have asked this question then. I think that the discussion about this topic has been incredible.

 

Karrin

 

HI Karrin,

 

Just so you know what the options are, I think you should get out and about as soon as you can, and at least visit/watch some other training. And do go to some trials (USBCHA/ISDS type) as soon and as often as you can, and watch what is required of the dogs and handlers. It is going to be very different from what you showed in the video.

 

I believe the LOLBCA has a trial this summer, at the Three Sisters Park, but I could be mistaken. If you need contact information for that please contact me off list. I have a friend in IL who is active in that club.

 

I don't quite know what else to say: I am simply floored that your dog has never been let off the line and I am not saying that in a mean way, just very, very surprised.

 

good luck,

 

--Billy

[bcnewe2]

This is very good information from someone who has tried this method first-hand, and for whom the method failed. Thank you for sharing it

 

Hi Karrin

I want to clarify a few things:

1. I wasn't asking who you train with, just wondering if I missed reading it in one of the posts. I can totally understand your not wanting to say who it is. Not fair if she's not here to defend herself.

2. I wouldn't say the method fails, just not something a new person has much chance of understanding the small details. For me, after several years, I still had dogs that weren't driving, and when let off the rope, still had to rodeo (sorta crash and burn trying to find balance and get to fetching). I also had a very strong dog that waited for the chance to "feel" his sheep. When he did, he was so frustrated from me holding him back that it wasn't pretty.

 

That is the biggest issue I have with this method. It's like dangling the candy in front of a kids nose but keeping him just out of reach. When MC would use this method he knew enough to let the dog actually sorta have the sheep, so it wasn't so frustrating for the dog. But for me, I didn't know enough to know when the dog actually felt the sheep or felt me keeping it off.

 

I will also say I know several "open" handlers that use this method exclusively and it works for them. More power to them for understanding how it works.

 

I do know of several open handlers around the Chicago area if you are looking to expand your horizons. I will inquire if anyone is close to you that might be willing to show you some different methods.

 

I think it was mentioned earlier that it's good to stay with one trainer as it's less confusing. But when you are new, it is very hard to understand the whole picture so almost impossible to know if it's a good method or not. I think it'd be a good idea for you to go out and observe some other people working their new dogs. You'll get some more idea on what's out there.

 

Good luck and keep posting, I'm interested in how it turns out for you and your pups.

[dracina]

Thanks, Kristin, for clarifying! Another forum member put me in contact with Allen Hickenbottom awhile back, and he gave me some names, but I would be grateful for your help if you would like to give me a few more. I also understand that Vergil Holland will be giving lessons in MI in July and I have inquired about that, just waiting to hear back.

 

Also, Billy: there IS a Land of Lincoln trial in August which I would like to attend, so thanks for that information.

 

Great videos, Becca, Jeanne, and Denise. Becca, what a great dog, that Ted! Fast as lightning, whip-smart and cute as a button, too!

[Denise Wall]

Great videos, Becca, Jeanne, and Denise.

 

Uh, thanks but I took all those May training videos down many months ago and no one noticed. Apparently, even still.

 

Videos like "Border collie attacks pumpkin" get nearly a million hits (if not more by now), but the stuff I put up, along with most other actual non AKC herding videos, not so many. It just didn't seem worth the effort. Plus YouTube kept changing formats and the quality was variable on each one. The old ones looked horrible.

 

Anyway, they're not there anymore.

[RoseAmy]

Karrin,

 

Taking a 3 minute video or a photo out of context can be misleading as to what is really happening or going on. That said I'm glad that you are questioning things, and checking into other methods and ways of doing thing, that's how we all learn and develope our skills. That said when I watched the video and heard that your dog has never been loose with sheep my thought was "trying to learn to swim without getting wet".

 

To become a good working dog-yes they need a degree of obedience-BUT they need to be able to read and feel sheep.

[Amelia]

Hello all,

 

"My dogs and I are beginners"

 

This is a line from the original post and the one that I will relate my answer to. If you have well bred dogs, they instinctively know more about working sheep than you do and more than you may ever know. Putting and keeping them on a line is necessary for your benefit, not theirs. It gives you more time to think. I think we can all agree that Bobby's reasons would be different than this person's. Whether it's one I've raised or one I have for training, the first time I take it to sheep I put it on a line...for the sheep's benefit. Once I know that the dog will not try to hurt my sheep, it's off the line and usually out of the round pen into the big field. There I use my voice and body position to shape it's instinct, which is to head the sheep to some extent, depending on the dog.

 

If a dog has good balance and wants to go to 12 O'clock to my 6 O'clock on sheep, then I have something to work with. Everything that I teach a dog is based on his desire to do that, even wearing and driving. After a dog perfects balance to some extent, I begin to teach it how to wear, then drive, and all I need to get to that point besides balance is a good down, stand or steady, depending on the dog, and correction that's appropriate for that dog.

 

The only other time I may use a line is to help a determined dog learn to drive. Rather than continually correct it to keep it on the same side of the sheep as I am, I put them on a line until they're comfortable with the concept.

 

If it is a trained sheepdog that you want, the best suggestion I can give you is to get some help from someone who has been successful training sheepdogs. Not someone successful with cow dogs, not someone who calls themselves a trainer, but has never tested their ability against successful trainers and not someone who participates in a discussion board with no other credentials. I'm not referring to any real person here, just making a suggestion.

 

Cheers all

[dracina]

Uh, thanks but I took all those May training videos down many months ago and no one noticed. Apparently, even still.

 

Videos like "Border collie attacks pumpkin" get nearly a million hits (if not more by now), but the stuff I put up, along with most other actual non AKC herding videos, not so many. It just didn't seem worth the effort. Plus YouTube kept changing formats and the quality was variable on each one. The old ones looked horrible.

 

Anyway, they're not there anymore.

 

Sorry, Denise- I think I got you confused with someone else that had a link to a video.