Starting a dog

[dracina]

Wow, this is really enlightening! Jaime, Julie, Becca, Diane, Anna, RoseAmy, Brenda, Deb, Pam, Betty...all of you have presented excellent ideas and reasoning, so thank you!

 

From what I think I am hearing, the cons of starting a dog on a line could be:

-too much handler control creates a push-button dog

-not instilling the primary idea of herding, which is the fetch

-not allowing the dog to read the sheep, and react appropriately

-a novice handler may not have the skills to read the sheep/dog/situation properly, and may be actually calling the wrong shots

 

The pros might be:

-the dog is being forced to make the *right* choice consistently, rather than allowing it to make its own mistakes

-the dog is being told right off what the handler wants, and shown how to do that

-the handler is also being taught how to read the sheep/dog/situation in order to learn to call the proper shot

-the drive and wear are solidified first, so that the dog is confident in his ability to move the stock, not just fetch

 

For the record, I am happy with my instructor. After reading what everyone has to say, I feel confident that the line method is feasible option for at least one of my dogs (Jack, in the video). Jack has a lot of natural ability, but lacks confidence. I do think that this method will work for him because it is showing him what to do right, rather than make corrections- he's a bit soft, and gets discouraged easily when corrected (but getting better all the time). I CAN sense a bit of frustration on his part, though, because he does want to go around the sheep.

 

On the other hand, for my Marcus (who is very enthusiastic, tough, and stubborn), this method may be a

bit too frustrating. He makes mistakes, but takes correction easily and learns from it.

 

Also, to answer what I meant when I said that the handler was working between the sheep and dog, I see that in the two videos mentioned, this only occurs when the handler is trying to stop or slow the dog, as Julie mentioned. But I have seen it done with the handler between the sheep and dog (facing the dog), crrok in hand, forcing the dog to flank by blocking its drive. In Vergil Holland's book, he also shows this method when introducing a dog to sheep. I could be reading this incorrectly, but that is what I see.

[Little Bo Boop]

the drive and wear are solidified first, so that the dog is confident in his ability to move the stock, not just fetch

 

While I think you can introduce driving, early on, anytime, pretty much whenever the opportunity arises, IMHO you'd be wise to not dismiss Balance as "not just fetch". That Fetch or Balance (once again, JMHO) is the cornerstone of your dog, and if you don't pay attention to that, it will come back to bite you in the butt ;-)

 

B

[Debbie Meier]

I just added a couple of comments in blue

 

-too much handler control creates a push-button dog - a possibility with any method

-not instilling the primary idea of herding, which is the fetch I wouldn't say that we don't instill a fetch, I operate under the assumption that it is wired in, it's more about not basing all your training off of you as a reference point or primary balance point. I've seen a couple dogs that needed to fetch a little to get things rolling for them, we did it just enough to get them to want to find there way around the stock and to try to hunt a balance point

-not allowing the dog to read the sheep, and react appropriately a possibility with any method

-a novice handler may not have the skills to read the sheep/dog/situation properly, and may be actually calling the wrong shots a possibility with any method

 

The pros might be:

-the dog is being forced to make the *right* choice consistently, rather than allowing it to make its own mistakes Force is not part of the program, we need to offer choices, while on the cord my dog has choices, he's not forced to be right, he can continue to try to drag me to the sheep, but it would be alot easier for him to not lean on the cord and follow the path I am openning for him

-the dog is being told right off what the handler wants, and shown how to do that Think of it more of a show rather then a told, I know some think of it as just words, but it's a mindset, telling the dog can get you mechanical, showing the dog will take you some place else

-the handler is also being taught how to read the sheep/dog/situation in order to learn to call the proper shot more taught to read the sheep and dog so you understand when the dog is correct or incorrect

-the drive and wear are solidified first, so that the dog is confident in his ability to move the stock, not just fetch imo, the drive is solidified in a way that the dog is confident in his ability to control and balance the sheep without using you or other means to keep them under control

 

edited to make a couple of adjustments...sorry

[Smokjbc]

Here's my concern with this type of method- and it might not be my place to question someone such as Bobby Daziel, who not only is one of the great handlers/trainers of our breed, but a successful breeder as well. But.... if we are putting a cord on these dogs and influencing their path from the get-go- how to we know what is trained and what is genetically strong in each dog? It doesn't sound like it can make a good dog out of a poor one though...

[Little Bo Boop]

I wouldn't say that we don't instill a fetch, I operate under the assumption that it is wired in, it's more about not basing all your training off of you as a reference point or primary balance point. I've seen a couple dogs that needed to fetch a little to get things rolling for them, we did it just enough to get them to want to find there way around the stock and to try to hunt a balance point

 

Wow, I just see so much wrong with this. Especially this. Surely you're not serious?

 

I've seen a couple dogs that needed to fetch a little to get things rolling for them, we did it just enough to get them to want to find there way around the stock and to try to hunt a balance point

[Laurae]

Deb, do you mainly work in arenas or the field? Cows or sheep mainly? I am not being snarky, just trying to understand where you're coming from. Your views just seem very much at odds with many of the things I've been taught.

[Debbie Meier]

Wow, I just see so much wrong with this. Especially this. Surely you're not serious?

I've seen a couple dogs that needed to fetch a little to get things rolling for them, we did it just enough to get them to want to find there way around the stock and to try to hunt a balance point

 

Yeah, there was so much wrong with it, the dogs just didn't fire to want to control their stock. If left off the cord they would run circles, chase, dive in or just let the sheep lead them around the field. Put them on the cord and show them they need to flank around, now here we are driving, opps..see you pushed too hard and upset the sheep that's not what we are doing we are trying to hold them on a line and balance them with our pressure. It's just a different approach. It actually kinda funny working with the young dogs, we do a lot of "no, don't slip out of the drive, gosh dang it, quit trying to turn this into a fetch, or no, I know the sheep are moving, but we need to hold our line and not flank around to stop them" It's not that the dog is real bad about it, you just get sensitive to how badly they want to do it, naturally.

 

We've been down this whole line of discussion before, some people get it, some don't, some dogs get it, some don't.

 

Deb

[ItsADogsLyfe]

From the many top handlers I have learned from the main job a dog has is to "bring me sheep." If the dog can't bring me sheep he's not worth much to me. If you start out the dog by never letting him go get the sheep and bring them to you how is he going to learn his job? It may be "hardwired" in but it can be taken out too by not letting him use this instinct and instead manually taking him to sheep and controlling his movements. I worked with Bobby and my dog was on a line, but he was allowed to work the sheep and the line was only used to correct. We started off letting him go around and bring me sheep. I would think always having the dog on a short line and constantly preventing him from getting to his sheep and go around them and seeing them running away and out of his control would frustrate the heck out of him. The other thing I'd be concerned with is that even with a dog that has a good outrun and keeps proper distance off the sheep when flanking, can sometimes get tight on those things when learning to drive. I think a lot of the good handlers don't do a lot of driving in the beginning because of this, but instead just throw a bit in here and there till the dog is very solid on his flanks. The thing I saw in the video was the dog walking up behind the sheep in a small pen. The dog would get excited and try to get to the sheep but being held by the leash could not. The sheep would bolt away and the dog would lose control and I think it would be frustrating. Now I've said this I will admit to not being an expert in any way shape or form and you can take this with a grain of salt.

[Debbie Meier]

Deb, do you mainly work in arenas or the field? Cows or sheep mainly? I am not being snarky, just trying to understand where you're coming from. Your views just seem very much at odds with many of the things I've been taught.

 

Both arena and field have not been in the fields enough though to trial though the work I try to create for my dog is out in as big of space as I can muster. As far as livestock, I'll put my dogs on about anything, it's all about pressure and release, holding pressure at the right times and in the right degrees and releasing it at the right time. As to being at odds, yep the views probably will be, it's that other planet deal again .

 

Hey, I gotta run, I need to get a payout spread sheet built before we take off for the fairgrounds.

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Your views just seem very much at odds with many of the things I've been taught.

Also not being snarky here, but generally methods that gain wide acceptance do so because they work. That's not to say alternate methods won't work, but I think those methods probably work best in the hands of the experts who came up with them. Joan notes that Bobby D. does let the dog go around sheep and fetch them. I haven't talked to him in ages, but if I ever get another chance, I intend to ask him that very question. At the one clinic I attended ISTM that there was plenty of fetching going on.

 

Along the lines of using the method that produces the best results, I'd be curious to know how many (and who) top hands in this country use a long line method of training. You can't argue with Bobby D's results (though I wonder if the long line was his method of training back when he won the International in 1986 and 1992), but is anyone else out there using that method and also performing at the highest level in open? The best proof of how well a method works is, well, proof.

 

J.

[btrent]

Hello all. Not much time to check this Board but the topic is interesting. I can't watch the video but will later. Just a few comments...The topic of the long line and the highly-respected trainer who uses it so much came up a few weeks ago at the end of one of my lessons with my trainer (who approaches things in a what could not be a more completely opposite fashion). My trainer's opinion is sort of (paraphrasing), the old saying, "there are many paths up the mountain". He finds it hard to disagree with those who have been highly successful top-level trialists, even though their training methods couldn't be farther from his. With the line method however, there seems to be a lot of teaching and dog training for something that should be somewhat more natural to a well bred border collie. The dog training aspect is not the way my trainer works and that's hard to explain but again, to each his own.

 

Since I have a 6-month old pup who is itching to work but is still really too little and immature (he has the attention span of a gnat!) and the foxtails are too horrible to work much anyway, I started re-reading that nice little book, Top Trainers Talk about Starting a Sheepdog. Last night I re-read the chapter by Pat Shannahan. I particularly love his parting advice at the end of his chapter. Again paraphrasing: find someone you work well with, and don't get too much advice from too many different people. I see local (novice) people going around to every trainer in the area, and I don't see those people making a lot of progress. The ones who seem to make progress are those who stick with one or two advisors.

[Debbie Meier]

I would think always having the dog on a short line and constantly preventing him from getting to his sheep and go around them and seeing them running away and out of his control would frustrate the heck out of him

 

 

No, No, you don't do that! That is not the visual you want to create, you want to create calm controlled calculated movement of the sheep by the dog.

 

Also, please don't think that there is no fetching, there is less of it especially for novices who sometimes end up spending alot time having sheep brought to the their feet as they are learning what they should be teaching.

 

Just a thought, since what top handlers do is referenced, I've seen novices, myself included that while learning the whole game spend months and months even years just walking around a field with the sheep balanced to them with the same dog, how many top handlers spend that much time with the sheep balanced to them? Or do they spend just enough time for the dog to understand the concept they are trying to teach and move on?

 

Anyway I really gotta go. As just mentioned, stick with one program and fewer advisers and you will advance faster, I think it is really sound advice.

 

Deb

[Pam Wolf]

OK, basically you guide the dog into the proper approach to the stock and when he shows the tendency to properly go around the sotck you let him. the typical result-if done properly- is for the dog to find balance in a calm manner and start to walk up often with pace already installed.

 

Again, the biggest drawback is understanding when the dog is on balance and in contact. But isn't this a big problem with any training method? Additionally, instead of constantly correcting the dog you are showing the dog the right choices and making it difficult (impossible) to make the wrong ones without having to use alot of body language/commands (which he probably doesn't know anyway).

[ItsADogsLyfe]

No, No, you don't do that! That is not the visual you want to create, you want to create calm controlled calculated movement of the sheep by the dog.

 

And I can't see how you can do this when you are controlling the dog's every movement. In the video, the dog is on a taut line and a few times he tries to rush to the sheep but can't so he flails to the side. The sheep run off and the dog, confined by the line cannot get to the sheep and get them back under control until the handler again walks him up. If it is a novice handler who doesn't understand livestock the way the dog does, then she may be hindering the dog's natural moves which would regain control of stock and put the position of authority (with the sheep) on the dog. I'm not trying to create visuals, I'm trying to let my dog learn how to feel his sheep and work with me in a way that makes sense to him and doesn't prevent him from learning from his mistakes. Keeping the dog on a line and walking him slowly around the sheep without letting him feel the pressure and learn what his distance should be to create the proper movement of the sheep is like someone trying to teach me how to ride a horse without letting me hold the reins and control the horse for myself. I may learn how to sit, but I won't learn how to feel the bit in the horses mouth and learn how much pressure to apply to get the proper motion from the horse. It's all about communication and if you aren't letting the dog learn how to work the sheep on his own with your help but instead holding him back from getting to experience that feeling, then how is he going to learn properly? Also, that dog is going to learn far better and faster than me how to position his body to exert the right amount of pressure on the sheep. I can't move as well as the dog so how can I teach him something I can't do? And if you always have the dog on a line either beside your or in front of you, how is the dog going to learn how to work the sheep in relation to you? And isn't that what it is all about? I'm sure I'm from another planet, but it must not be in the same galaxy as yours.

[Caroline Reichard]

Along the lines of using the method that produces the best results, I'd be curious to know how many (and who) top hands in this country use a long line method of training.

J.

 

I know that Carol Campion (our current Forum "expert") uses a line, although she doesn't use it in anything at all like the way that it is shown on the video: when I have seen her, the line is mostly dragging behind the dog, and I think that flanking to balance and fetching are her first training goals. She describes some of her thinking about it in the Top Trainers book, where she states that the line is her most valued training aid. I suspect that she is off line at the moment, or else she probably would have been posting on this thread.

[juliepoudrier]

I've read Carol's descriptions of how she uses the line, here and on Sheepdog-L, and what she describes doesn't sound anything like what I saw in the video above or in fact the videos of the agility person (HibNob?) doing something similar to what's posted above, originally posted in the general discussion section.

 

Maybe Carol will join this discussion when she's back online and explain how her method differs from what's been seen or described here, and how it's the same.

J.

[dracina]

I see local (novice) people going around to every trainer in the area, and I don't see those people making a lot of progress. The ones who seem to make progress are those who stick with one or two advisors.

 

I do agree with this advice; as I said, I am happy with my instructor and not looking to switch. But, I also think that putting on blinders and not looking at other methods is not a responsible approach, either. I may be a novice, but I take handling seriously, and want to be well-informed so that I can continue to improve. Not that you are implying otherwise, but I just want to be clear about my intentions.

[Caroline Reichard]

I've read Carol's descriptions of how she uses the line, here and on Sheepdog-L, and what she describes doesn't sound anything like what I saw in the video

 

 

I agree totally. Like you, I'd also enjoy reading Carol weigh in here.

[RoseAmy]

wow! I thought the use of line was only being asked in relationship to just starting a dog. So here's my take for what is worth.

 

I first met Bobby D. when I had just gotten my now open dog. She could do a very short outrun and fetch. Asked him when I should introduce driving and the best way. WELLL Bobby taught my dog to drive and do half flanks in the course of 2 days.

 

AFTER 15 minutes of outruns and balance work and getting that correct the line came out. And we walk and walk and walk. I was to tell dog one time walk up and then ignore her. If she stoped we kept walking if she tried to flank around the line kept her behind. We went no special way or direction. After a short time bobby made the announcement that we would now teach half flanks. I gave her a short flank command the line guided her to stay off the sheep and not go to the heads..Followed by a stand there..then a walk up.

 

By the end of the 3rd day we dropped the line and my dog was driving lines and even cross driving.

 

For the next few months I would use the line on her off and on to reinforce correctness.

 

Now fast forward to my current young dog..when I started her (if you look back at my posts you will see I had problems getting her to the sheep in an orderly fashion) the more I tried to contain her, hold her back or settle her down the worst she got. I finally clipped the line on opened the gate and let her go. The line was on merely so i could grab her when we were done. Low and behold after a day or two of crazy and fast gathers she ran half way to the sheep and downed herself and waited for me to send her.

 

Made the decision that the line was coming off. Once again after a time or two when i thought I WOULD never get her she just up and trotted back as soon as I said that'll do.

 

So to line or not..I think it depends on the dog and the circumstances.

[ThunderHill]

I've worked with a couple of trainers who used a line, at least part of the time, at least in the very beginning. (Particularly with very exciteable grippy dogs in smaller areas.) But the object was always to use the line as little as possible; to work with plenty of slack (not constant tension) as much as possible so that it didn't become a crutch; and to get rid of the line as soon as possible.

 

I've never seen a trainer who didn't alternate using a "connected" line (with one end attached to the dog and the other end held by a human) with unrestrained fetching/gathering/balancing work. (I don't mean the dog just dragging some line so that it can be caught.)

 

Interesting.

[stockdogranch]

Question for Deb: I know you're off to the fairgrounds today, but when you get back...is the method you're describing one that you have used primarily/originally for your ACDs? Things that you say in post #32 give me this impression--dogs that would not go in and try to control stock, running circles, diving in. From what I understand from your posts, you started with ACDs, then went to Border Collies. So, if that is the case, then I could see this method making much more sense for that breed, as from my limited experience, they don't have a natural gathering instinct to the degree that Border Collies do,

 

A

[dracina]

From what I understand from your posts, you started with ACDs, then went to Border Collies. So, if that is the case, then I could see this method making much more sense for that breed, as from my limited experience, they don't have a natural gathering instinct to the degree that Border Collies do,

 

A

 

Hi Anna,

 

OK, here is a question, then: Border Collies have a natural gathering instinct. Then, I am correct when I assume that it is not generally their natural tendency (as a breed, there may be individual variation, of course) to drive or wear?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm not Anna, but Border Collies are bred, ideally, with a sense of balance. That doesn't just mean gathering, though it's strongest at work there. In my thinking, balance includes the ability to hold a line (more or less) and keep a pace. But a dog starting out doesn't automatically do these necessarily.

 

A child may be a prodigy pianist, but she still has to be taught to read music and theory to be able to perform the masters, and exercises to develop the physical strength and reach needed for advanced work. As a child, one doesn't start with twos against threes, or five-note fingered chords, or dissonant scales.

 

One starts with the easy stuff to introduce the ideas. Even if the child can do them naturally, she'll need time to develop strength and fingering skill and learn that there are basic rules. Far better to introduce these things under less pressure, doing something easy, than to throw the hard stuff at the child while also introducing new things and requiring physically difficult fingering.

 

So a young dog learns how to use what is natural to him, and the handler works him through places where he might be a bit weak - in a context that is easy. That's why most trainers start with the gather.

 

Then the dog uses balance in the contexts where there's less assistance from the handler - it's a step up because it's a controlled escape. Border Collies don't know the difference between "driving" and "fetching" - it is, I believe, how comfortable they are handling this controlled escape.

 

I've worked with dogs that do it from day one, dogs with a lot of power and the ability to convey the message, "Resistance is futile." It's an easy thing to break in a young dog though, if not given the opportunity to develop the basics - just a few disasters where the sheep can get the better of such a dog, before he's fully ready to handle emergencies, and it becomes really hard to convince the dog to take control of the sheep in any situation.

[Laurae]

I once went to a Kathy Knox clinic in Wyoming attended mostly by ranchers who used their border collies solely to drive their stock from one field to another. These were mainly well-bred dogs, of varying ages, who worked every day on the ranches of their owners, but Kathy worked all of them in the round pen as though they were puppies. This was because not a one of them would go to the heads to gather the sheep (let alone go to balance or try to bring the sheep to the handlers). Although these border collies were all born with the instinct to go to the head, the inclination to do so had been taken out of them completely because they were always encouraged to drive (because that's what the ranchers needed them to do). And they pushed the sheep nicely, but it was all pretty basic, and the ranchers had no idea how much more their dogs were capable of. Kathy worked hard that weekend to try to reawaken the gathering instinct in these dogs, and by the end of the clinic most of them were at least improving. But I was amazed to see how easily a border collie can lose that gathering instinct under the right set of circumstances.

[stockdogranch]

Interesting. A friend sent a well-bred dog home with me from Wyoming a few years back to put some training on. She was maybe 18 months old, and had had no formal training. The ranch manager had "used" her for working the cattle. When I asked him what he had done with her, he said that he had used her for trailing cattle down from the summer pasture, and he "made sure she stayed behind the horse." So basically he drove the stock with her behind him. That worried me a bit, but I gave her a try. I tried everything--small groups of sheep in the round pen, bigger groups in the open, calves, light stock, heavy stock, another dog to help out, you name it. Twice a day she went with me to see what we could accomplish. She was a nice friendly dog, and liked me--came when I called, took the down readily, and so on. But no matter what I did, I could *not* get her to go around the stock. No way. When I tried to gently urge her to do so, she would squeeze out the smallest hole in the fence and leave. She never would have any part of it. She caught the next ride back to Wyoming,

A