How much is to much

[Lenajo]

Of all the threads that are out there, I find the working ones are the most difficult to answer or debate. Most of the time I just read, and when I know the dog (like the recent thread by Journey) and the situation being discussed I get reminded of how difficult it is to even accurately describe what a dog is doing on the field in words. Heck, I was *there* with her dog and I couldn't describe it well - I just knew what wasn't working.

 

So as Mark said... I read and say nothing...or I think or want to say "well it depends".

 

There are a lot of basic pet behaviors that are relatively easy to describe and discuss options for training fairly accurately even online. Not perfect, but much easier than working scenarios.

 

It also takes a lot more time to get those working answers in. Probably because of a lot of natural "it depends" gets pondered about.

 

Darci, I know I read your post in the first day it was up, but I'm still on the "it depends" stage and frankly may be there for months. Or at least until the current 2 pups in this stage are trained.

[1sheepdoggal]

Darci,

 

I saw you're original question and my first response was "it depends". It depends upon how far along your dog is, it depends upon if your dog is ready for more control, it depends; and I am not experinced enough to answer this question for you without seeing your dog in action.

 

So my question to you is; how would you prefer I react to your training questions in the future:

1. No response if I don't have anything useful

2. Respond with it depends or I must see your dog in action to answer

 

Mark

 

BTW my plan was to monitor this thread and if no one had responded by today with helpful suggestions I would have posted something. Your pissy attitude makes me NOT want to respond in the future.

 

Hello Mark,

If you saw my original post, then you saw that I had said the dog was almost 12 months old, and just starting his training. That I had been taking him to sheep anywhere from 2 to 4 times a month for the last 2 months. That he was keen to work, but still a bit immature, but that he was able to handle a little pressure. That he was learning where balance is, and learning his flank commands, but that I was just putting the words to them and he was still changing direction off my body. That he had a good stop on balance, but no off balance stop yet, and he had a walk up, but that Id felt that even though he was learning some valuable things, like learning how to walk on and off the field with me, and learning how to get his head right when presented with sheep, and before I sent him, and learning to actually wait to go to sheep until I did send him, that once I did send him, I felt we were starting to get stuck in a rut just circling and wearing and was afraid that one could do to much circling and wearing, and that even though he was still keen to stay on sheep and work, I had noticed that he was starting to read my body language and anticipate, more than listen to my voice, because we have done these same exercises so many times already. I had asked, because he is still a bit immature, (which I would hope translates as also less confident) if circling and wearing should stop, and go on to some thing else, and if so, was asking for suggestions as to what that some thing else could be, or, because he was young and immature, perhaps putting him up for a couple of more months might be a better plan. I dont know how I personally could have set the question up better, in my limited skills as a trainer and writer, but if it wasnt enough info for you to enter the discussion, my answer to your question would be to for you to ask me for more information.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hey, Darci. I agree the boards have been turning into a super drag lately. There have been very few working related posts, and those general training posts to which I have responded, thinking, gee, I have no problem getting a pup to lie down or to not nip my ankles or whatever, so perhaps I can contribute...well, apparently my methods for teaching such things are just not just "positively" oriented enough, as the responses to my posts on such matters seem to imply. Guess I need to go get a frikking clicker.

 

However, I was looking forward to your response, as last I looked, you were going to take out the lighter sheep, and use just the more dog-broke ones. Since I thought that sounded like a wise move, I didn't comment. So, I'll carry on as if the OP were still intact, and you hadn't removed it perhaps a bit prematurely (I, too, was pulling a lamb last night. One leg bent back at the shoulder).

 

So, does this pup have a fairly ok lie down? If so, you may need to use it to sort of "artificially" get him to understand keeping distance from the sheep. If you can use the lie down to get him in the right place (back off the sheep a bit), build a bit of distance between him and the sheep, then ask him to walk on up again, then he can feel what it's like to be in the right place, so then can begin to adjust himself accordingly, allowing you to face forward and just walk. Now, while I would rather just let the pup find that place on its own, with some pups, I think it's more expedient (and doesn't allow bad habits to develop), to make the pup be correct so it at least knows what we're looking for, if that makes sense,

 

A

 

Hi Ana,

I did in fact go back out and take the lighter sheep out and just work him on my more dog broke sheep. What I found out is that he does have a nice pace, and gives the sheep plenty of room, he is still a bit yee haw and goofy, so I dont think he has quite figured out where he needs to be, but I can see he is trying different things, adjusting and learning. He does have a pretty good stop on him but I tried asking for a stop when I tried the turning my back and meandering as youd suggested, and he seems to still be pretty dependant on my facing him to take the down. So I think at this point in his training, it may be best as you said, to make, or help him be right, right now until he developes a bit more confidence, and he starts to trust his own instincts a bit more. Yes, it made sense to me, and as anyone that knows me will tell you, I have no problem trying to Make the dog right.

[1sheepdoggal]

I don't post all that often but I do read the posts all the time and I have to say that I think you're being totally unfair. You posted less than 24 hours ago. When did you retract your post - last night? I don't think you gave people enough time to respond. I also thought when I read your post "why isn't she posting this in the ask an expert section too?". I read the responses and your responses to them and, unless I'm remembering them incorrectly, you responded with why you couldn't do this or that and what your sheep were like. It sort of seemed like you didn't like the responses you got. JMHO.

 

What I had said, in response to Debbie's post, was she had said she wouldnt work a young dog on heavy sheep. My response was that he had been working all different types of sheep together, from rams, wethers and dog brokes ewes and wethers, along with ewes with lambs, and that they were all giving different pressures to the pup to deal with because of what type of sheep they were, IE some lighter than others, some more defensive because of lambs than others and some, such as the rams, a little heavier and more challenging, and that perhaps I would sort off the other sheep and just try him on the dog broke wethers and ewes without lambs. I did that, and the work went better for him, in that he was able to pace himself better without having to worry about all the different pressures for such a young dog to have to digest so quickly. Those can come later once he has learned where he needs to be and builds a bit more confidence.

[Lenajo]

I ready all this, and honestly Darci, there is *so* much about "simple work" that can be very complicated. Nuances of intent, expression, attitude....and all that can change 180 degrees in half an ear twitch. It can mean nothing except the trainer is over thinking, or it can mean everything and that the trainer better change paths *now*.

 

Sometimes I think working questions come down to the old Ray Hunt saying "if you have to ask, you aren't ready for the answer".

 

I think I'll go back to the pet forum now. There if you can get your dog to sit and not eat you you're the equivilent of a dog training Mensa This work stuff on the 'net ...ai yi yi!

 

 

 

 

Hello Mark,

If you saw my original post, then you saw that I had said the dog was almost 12 months old, and just starting his training. That I had been taking him to sheep anywhere from 2 to 4 times a month for the last 2 months. That he was keen to work, but still a bit immature, but that he was able to handle a little pressure. That he was learning where balance is, and learning his flank commands, but that I was just putting the words to them and he was still changing direction off my body. That he had a good stop on balance, but no off balance stop yet, and he had a walk up, but that Id felt that even though he was learning some valuable things, like learning how to walk on and off the field with me, and learning how to get his head right when presented with sheep, and before I sent him, and learning to actually wait to go to sheep until I did send him, that once I did send him, I felt we were starting to get stuck in a rut just circling and wearing and was afraid that one could do to much circling and wearing, and that even though he was still keen to stay on sheep and work, I had noticed that he was starting to read my body language and anticipate, more than listen to my voice, because we have done these same exercises so many times already. I had asked, because he is still a bit immature, (which I would hope translates as also less confident) if circling and wearing should stop, and go on to some thing else, and if so, was asking for suggestions as to what that some thing else could be, or, because he was young and immature, perhaps putting him up for a couple of more months might be a better plan. I dont know how I personally could have set the question up better, in my limited skills as a trainer and writer, but if it wasnt enough info for you to enter the discussion, my answer to your question would be to for you to ask me for more information.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hi Darci:

 

I read this traing forum (and with great interest, might I add)- but I do not have working sheepdogs. Furthermore, my dogs will probably never be (unfortunately) working dogs, since I live in Chicago. I do hope to have a small farm someday, but for now- no. However, I subscribed to the board because I want to LEARN about working a dog. I am just beginning to train my dogs on sheep, so I can not add anything relevent to your discussions here. But that does not mean that I do not listen to all that goes on here with earnest. I wish I was knowledgeable enough to participate in your discussions, but the fact is, I am not even close.

 

I understand what you are saying about the boards being somewhat ridiculous at times. But, I think that's why there are different forums: some people do only want to enjoy their dogs as pets, some compete in agility, some only are concerned with certain things that may seem unimportant to you. I like to think there is room for everybody and all types.

 

I do hope, though, that you post your original question, because I would like to read the responses (after I read the Silly BC behaviors, of course !).

 

See, the way I figure a person learns, is by asking questions, not lurking because they dont feel they know enough to participate. Participation can occur just by asking for some one to add a little more info, or elaborate on whats already there. I dont understand the "I dont know enough to participate" attitude. I dont think anyone would knock you ( the general you) if you asked questions. The training section isnt for the experts, theres already a section for that.

[1sheepdoggal]

Where have all the working folks gone?

 

This working folk and tired sheepdogs are lambing/kidding

 

Trying to make ends meet.

 

Separating ewes and month old lambs to milk ewes to make cheese, every evening.

Catching and Teaching first year ewes to stand and be milked in stanchion, every morning.

 

Catching, holding, in this pen or that,

 

Taking older lambs and flock out to browse loose,

 

Catching ewes in labour to bring into jugs to lamb.

 

Cleaning feeding watering checking repairing fences, selling sheep, selling locker lambs for fall

===============================================================

I don't mind pet folks

 

I like to read the posts on training and trailing

 

Sorry your still hard at it Tea, Im done with lambing ( all my lambs came in January and Feb) and Ive sold off all Im selling for the year. But, been there, done that.

[1sheepdoggal]

Same here, Darci. I wish I could participate more myself but I still enjoy reading what other people ask and the responses they get. Thanks in advance for reposting.

 

This might be totally off the wall but since a couple of people have mentioned how it would help if they could see it what was happening, would it be possible to get some video of what you're posting about? I wouldn't have any answers to your question(s) but having a visual would help me understand the question(s) you're asking. (I hope that made sense.)

 

Yes, vid is a good idea. Matter of fact, I was just talking about that todaywith a friend of mine, as that was her suggestion. Being that Im on dial up, and vids take forever to load, it had not occured to me, but it is some thing we talked about doing this weekend.

[hsnrs]

Not here. That is why I joined; to learn about stock dog work. I have read wearing is boring and think my dog Sam agrees. The new round pen is up and will work the dogs soon. Now to sit back and learn from everyone. N

[Smokjbc]

Hi Darcy,

 

My youngster (1 1/2 years) is kinda in the same place, her maturity level is such that she can handle some forays into more advanced stuff (like off balance stops), but other things (driving, for example) I can only do baby steps with her. But one thing I do do less of is wearing- I do a bit of it at a time, but since I don't really want to pace her too much at her age, I find that I'm better served working on outrun/fetches with her and intermingling that with the baby steps driving. I do circle with her to work on her flanks, but try to keep it "in context" instead of drilling. For example, I might let her do a small outrun, ask her to flank a little and then step in if she slices that flank. I set up sheep to have a certain draw so she will need a nice big flank on her fetch to cover it, and then stop her and work the circles a bit if she cuts in. I'm doing as much as I can to build distance on her outruns and flexibility on her fetches, she is generally responsible (with some set backs of course) and comfortable with that work so I try to set things up for her to learn (mostly) listening ability and flexibility. If I do wear, I try to pick a point, get there straight and make a point of using the turn to work on flank and lift to get the sheep moving on the same line. Honestly, I never run out of things to work on, but I do probably challenge the status quo a little too much- at least it seems at least once every couple of work sessions I realize I've tried to make the tyke jump over a step.

[1sheepdoggal]

OK. So what Im hearing is that there are those that dont feel qualified to answer questions, those that dont feel they are knowledgable enough to participate, those that dont think OP's can provide enough info about a situation because those that would want to offer an explanation or enter the discussion cant "see" the dog, and those that say paper training on the net is just to hard. So to those I ask, then why do we have a training section? What purpose does it serve if no one will utilize it because they all feel like if they arent experts they cant participate, or others are afraid they wont sound like the expert if they cant see the dog? Come on folks, we have an Ask the Expert section, I feel that the training section is to exchange ideas and training practices, educate, and inform, debate different training styles, swap what works and doesnt work ideas, and generally, just talk about working and training stockdogs, and helping each other as handlers/trainers. Varied Input, was what I was asking/looking for, or, Id have posted in the Ask an Expert section.

Now I gotta go work some dogs.

[Little Bo Boop]

Just my novice 2 cents, but maybe you're trying too hard to 'train' him at this point? (if that makes sense) if he's got balance and a bit of stop or slow down, why not just do practical work with him? Let him do little/short gathers, let him help you pen them, let him help you walk them to another pasture or pen...and use differing sheep, differing numbers...put in a few walkabouts if you like, but I don't think I'd be wearing and circling all the time at this point...I think practical work makes a whole lot more sense to the dog ;-) and probably you as well ;-) I also think that if you get in the habit of taking your young dog down to work with you to do chores etc...you very seldom (at least thats been the case with my dogs) have the problem of them running off after sheep without your permission (I hate dogs that do that by the way ;-) ) Good luck with the puppers.

 

Betty

[1sheepdoggal]

Just my novice 2 cents, but maybe you're trying too hard to 'train' him at this point? (if that makes sense) if he's got balance and a bit of stop or slow down, why not just do practical work with him? Let him do little/short gathers, let him help you pen them, let him help you walk them to another pasture or pen...and use differing sheep, differing numbers...put in a few walkabouts if you like, but I don't think I'd be wearing and circling all the time at this point...I think practical work makes a whole lot more sense to the dog ;-) and probably you as well ;-) I also think that if you get in the habit of taking your young dog down to work with you to do chores etc...you very seldom (at least thats been the case with my dogs) have the problem of them running off after sheep without your permission (I hate dogs that do that by the way ;-) ) Good luck with the puppers.

 

Betty

 

Hi Betty, yes, it makes sense and its a great suggestion, thanks. Thats what a friend and I had talked about today was just taking him to do chores. At this point, Im done lambing and am actually weaning now, the sheep are on pasture with some ( a little grass) and round bales, so we're just chillin around here with not much work to be done. However, I can just take him out on the pasture with me and do little walk abouts to keep in tune with teaching him not to run off after sheep, ( I hate that too) and to stay by me.

This evening I had him come along with me on pasture and do water changing and cleaning. I still have him on a long line, but he was a bugger wanting to get to the sheep. He is a keen fella. But the way I see it, if I can get Chris to relax and follow the rules, Hank should be a piece of cake!

Gonna have to find a thick book and a soft chair. (and a can of bug spray, the gnats out there tonight were..... not tasty.)

[juliepoudrier]

Darci,

Along the lines of Betty's comments and in keeping with our earlier conversation, why not take your sheep out to graze in the yard or somewhere and let Hank do some tending work? It will require him to wait patiently, to do little flanks to keep them in the prescribed area, etc. Of course you'll have to help him with some of this stuff, but it would probably be much more interesting for him than just circling and wearing.

 

Now why haven't you posted a response to my clappy dog post? You're begging for discussion, but you ain't discussing my problem, lol!

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Darci,

Along the lines of Betty's comments and in keeping with our earlier conversation, why not take your sheep out to graze in the yard or somewhere and let Hank do some tending work? It will require him to wait patiently, to do little flanks to keep them in the prescribed area, etc. Of course you'll have to help him with some of this stuff, but it would probably be much more interesting for him than just circling and wearing.

 

Now why haven't you posted a response to my clappy dog post? You're begging for discussion, but you ain't discussing my problem, lol!

 

J.

 

Well, you know Im riddled with those trust issues, so Im not so sure Hank is quite ready to come out of the fence just yet, you'll get to see him tomorrow and we can take some vid. As far as your "Clappy" post, well......Im not sure Im qualified to answer that question. But I'll go over and have a look and see what I can contribute, cause I use to have a clappy biscuit eater once.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey, don't be calling my precious pup a biscuit eater! j/k--I know you're in love with Miss Larky....

 

Hmmmm...methinks Hank might just have to work out in the field tomorrow. Maybe even out back with the "big dogs." Darci heart-attack time.

 

J.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hey, don't be calling my precious pup a biscuit eater! j/k--I know you're in love with Miss Larky....

 

Hmmmm...methinks Hank might just have to work out in the field tomorrow. Maybe even out back with the "big dogs." Darci heart-attack time.

 

J.

 

What is there not to love about Little Miss Larky!

Hmmmmmm. Me thinks if you want to give me a heart attack, putting Hank in an unfenced area with sheep, would be a good place to start!

[stockdogranch]

Ya'll are just way ahead of me. I was next going to suggest just doing some chores. Have him gather the whole group, take into a pen and gate sort some off. Take that group somewhere and dump them. Then go back to the whole group, sort off a few more, and take them somewhere. That way, the pup is doing real work (even if it is made-up work), and not just drilling, and learning a bunch of stuff in the meantime--like to leave one group and not stress over them, but to move on to the next group, etc.

 

A

[bcnewe2]

I like the real work answer. It wasn't till I decided to do that with Dew that she finally made the leap From "games" to this is real work. It came about having her help me worm a 100 or so ewes. When we started she was busting at the seams to help, by the time we ended she was laying at the top of the shoot waiting for me to tell her I needed the next bunch. Mick how ever was sittin in the car with the nasty look on his face. He turned his back to me the whole way home. Dew was beaming!

 

It showed that the attitude stuck the next day when I sent her under a fence (while I stayed on my side) to bring back some runaway mommas with lambs. She had to figure out how to do it without much guidence. She did great till it was time to come back under the fence. She took off the other way with me wonderin WTH....I'd call her and she ran faster in the wrong direction. once she got about 100yds away it dawned on me what she was doing. She was coming back under the fence in the exact spot I sent her though. Funny little girl she is.

 

While I was trying to drill and practice she never lost the "game" mentality. As soon as I added real work, the game got real serious.

But there is that time when you know they're not ready for real work, that seems to go so slow. Or is that not so slow, and we're just in a hurry?

[SoloRiver]

It seems to me it's so much easier for people to discuss their fur baby's anal glands than it is to

decode a stockdog training issue over the internet. No matter how the question is posed, or how the answer is phrased,

it's just such a terrible way to solve stockdog problems the result is often not valuable enough to justify all the effort.

This is my theory on why the boards' discussions are as they are.

 

What CT said.

 

There are two hot topics on this board that are nearly impossible to say anything valid about without being able to actually see the dog in question, and those are questions about working situations, and questions about aggression.

 

The answer to each type of question is almost always the same: please seek help from a qualified expert individual who can see what the dog is doing in person.

 

I think that it is very possible to have interesting discussions about work and training situations if they are phrased more generally. For example, I have a dog who often looks as though she has spotted sheep, but then when you send her it is very obvious that she actually has no idea where they are. Therefore, I might ask a general question about how to teach a dog to look for sheep and how I would know more surely that she has actually seen them (in fact, I think I did ask this question a while back, but I forget).

 

What doesn't work is if I ask a very specific question about Fly and try to describe exactly what she is doing, and then people answer, and then I say no, no, that doesn't apply because what is actually happening is XYZ, and anyway I already tried what you suggested and it didn't work, and yadda yadda yadda. I'm not saying this is what you did (because I didn't see the question either) but that this is often what people do and it's not really conducive to productive discussion. The same thing happens with a lot of the threads about aggression, or non-stock training problems, which is very frustrating.

 

On the other hand, I asked a general question about bitch-bitch aggression, and then followed up with some details in response to the responses I got initially, and got a lot of good insights into the situation and was able to formulate a better plan for dealing with the problem. (Fly and Jett are still being separated except for very short periods of extremely supervised interaction and so far, so good. Jett is going off to be started soon and hopefully when she gets back, she will have forgotten that she wants to eat Fly.)

 

Perhaps it would be more useful to have more general training discussions than to ask specific questions about specific dogs.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I think the real work thing is a good plan as well- I try to find that kind of work for my dogs (it's very hard to create on a hobby flock of 10 sheep). I'm looking forward to a month or two from now, when lambs are old enough to be moved quietly- I think Jet will do well on the larger group and will help her learn some better feel for her sheep. I really need to get back to the range flock, but it hasn't worked out yet, hopefully we can dock lambs again this spring.

[1sheepdoggal]

Hi,

 

I think the real work thing is a good plan as well- I try to find that kind of work for my dogs (it's very hard to create on a hobby flock of 10 sheep). I'm looking forward to a month or two from now, when lambs are old enough to be moved quietly- I think Jet will do well on the larger group and will help her learn some better feel for her sheep. I really need to get back to the range flock, but it hasn't worked out yet, hopefully we can dock lambs again this spring.

 

Yep, I think that is the best way to mix it up a bit for the pup, but Im going to have to watch myself, and not put him in over his head.

Im down to 15 head myself, so your right, its hard to find enough work for one dog right now, let alone 4, so its time to put on the ole thinking cap and get creative.

[hsnrs]

We are going to work our lambs with their moms also in the new round pen. Should we use all the sheep (3 ewes with 6 lambs) with our dogs or just a few? Our round pen is about 90 ft. N

[1sheepdoggal]

How old are your lambs Narita? I work my ewes with lambs, they are 4 months old now, and weaning, so the ewes arent to over protective with them as to try to take the dog on, and the lambs can keep up with the rest of the sheep so they dont get run over and hurt. If you have a gripper, ya might want to leave the lambs out just to protect them from a bad grip. I started allowing the dogs to work the lambs with the ewes about a month ago. I will say, I have two dogs, that dont even act as though they think the lambs are sheep, and convieniently allow them a free ticket to not being kept in the fold with the rest, and if I ask them to go back and get them, they will, but reluctantly, and like they just arent quite sure that lambs are livestock to be moved. Its taken a little time to convince them that yes, I want the lambs they are sheep too!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'll be seeing Hank in person in about 7 hours so I could wait until then to take a guess. But, in response to "Why no one's answering?" - big trial weekend last weekend, lambing season, spring so a lot of people are training their OWN young dogs, and in my case, taking advantage of longer hours of daylight to do projects around the new farm between kids' school/Bible drill/house cleaning, then collapsing in bed. I haven't really had much time for the BC Boards lately. Anyway, I never jump right in and answer a training question. I sit back and see what others more qualified say, then usually add a "Me too" or a slightly different approach if I've seen or know of one.

 

In this case, knowing the breeding I'd guess a combination of distance and boredom are two areas you might look at improving. In other words, instead of continuing to do something you know he can do (wearing and circling), I'd start doing something a bit harder.

 

I hardly did any walking with Ted. Actually, I don't remember doing any after we graduated from the round pen. From the time he was wee he could bring me sheep at a nice pace - it was getting him there that was problematic for a while. Oh, wait, we did go through a phase where he'd push them too hard, at first, but it was just a matter of my telling him I didn't like that. As Robin said, "If you don't like it, tell him!" So I went back to walking for a little while, until he could bring and hold sheep to me without pushing them on past.

 

Anyway, one easy way to "test" proper distance is to use him to load sheep in a trailer or small pen. Or, alternately, you can mark out a small square on the ground and get the sheep in there, and keep them there. These things really helped Ted, and me too, get the difference between Ted working with his brain on, and Ted just running like a hooligan. You need quiet sheep to do these with a baby dog.

 

Hope this helps.