Help strengthing the lift

[Amelia]

Albion, your dog couldn't lift the sheep last weekend and you had to walk off. Complaining that the sheep weren't properly fed or that they shouldn't have been set on hay isn't going to change that fact. It doesn't mean that something was done poorly because you had a bad day. I saw lots of beautiful runs, more hands got sheep to their feet than didn't and many finished. To me that's a much better indicator of whether things were done properly.

[Albion Urdank]

Were we talking about that trial? Asa is 11.5 yrs and has slowed down lots; he really needs to be retired. That was the first time in his career he failed to lift. He approached the sheep carefully, with good pace, but relied too much on his eye and not enough on his usual physiucal presence. He was the first up that morning, and the sheep were eating like they had never been fed. Charlie Torrie ran after me, and when he came off the course he commented to me that he was glad his sheep weren't as hungry as mine. But I told him that Asa was aging and that this was probably the reason. Still, it isn't appropriate to use hay to hold range lambs, for the reasons I've mentioned, I noticed that your Price had to rush his sheep rather hard in order to lift them, and being a loose-eyed,pushy dog as a general rule, that worked for him. My Kep did the same thing later in the day, and as Jeff commented the sheep in her run exploded at the lift. That's not the approach to the sheep one wants to see normally on the lift. Hay wasn't used in the years past at this trial when I ran in it, but probably used this time because the set out person had had trouble on earlier occasions holding the sheep, even with the use of a horse .

Kind regards,

Albion

 

Albion, your dog couldn't lift the sheep last weekend and you had to walk off. Complaining that the sheep weren't properly fed or that they shouldn't have been set on hay isn't going to change that fact. It doesn't mean that something was done poorly because you had a bad day. I saw lots of beautiful runs, more hands got sheep to their feet than didn't and many finished. To me that's a much better indicator of whether things were done properly.

[juliepoudrier]

Really, does this have to turn into an ego thing here? We were having a good discussion about how to help dogs be better at lifting sheep. Can we leave the personal attacks, etc., offline? What's going on here now is a great way to stifle what was an interesting discussion.

 

ETA: To add to the original discussion, I have done a lot of set out, and while holding on grain (more common than hay here in the east) certainly does make the set out person's job less difficult, doing so does present a unique set of problems, not the least of which is that the sheep aren't likely to lift naturally (making the lift difficult to judge) and because the animals have their heads buried in feed, they will often let dogs who are not good at the top (i.e., tight or improper approach) get away with it. That said, if as Anna noted, the alternative is sheep running all over the top of the field, then holding on feed does make for a more even/regular set out. It's unfortunate that it has to do be dome sometimes, but that's life. And nothing irks me more than handlers who take forever to get to the post when sheep that are hard to hold are being held on grain. I don't need to dump the entire bag out for one set of sheep, and I do try to use the minimum amount possible to keep them reasonably in place without giving them so much that they flat out don't want to move when the competing dog gets there.

 

As for animals being hungry (or thirsty) I think they can be fed and watered well the night before a trial, but if the feeding and watering are at a time that is not part of their usual feeding routine then there's no guarantee that they will have eaten or drank their fill before a trial starts. That's not the fault of the trial host or the person caring for the stock--it just means that trial schedules don't match the normal routines of flock life and we just have to deal with that. I was at a cattle trial a few weeks ago where the calves were awful about getting to the creek or pond and running over dogs to do so because they were thirsty. The calves had had access to water the entire night before the trial, but apparently that wasn't the time they normally drank, and they wanted to drink when they usually do, which happened to be at the same time we were running them in the trial. We just dealt with it.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Oh, and here's a little anecdote. Last spring an old acquaintance of mine decided to have the first ever trial at her farm. I told her I'd be happy to volunteer to set sheep for the trial. She asked if I'd be willing to judge, and I said "No, people complain too much about the judging." Her response was that they complain about the set out too. My answer to that was "Yeah, but I can't hear those complaints from where I'm standing."

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Albion, your dog couldn't lift the sheep last weekend and you had to walk off. Complaining that the sheep weren't properly fed or that they shouldn't have been set on hay isn't going to change that fact. It doesn't mean that something was done poorly because you had a bad day. I saw lots of beautiful runs, more hands got sheep to their feet than didn't and many finished. To me that's a much better indicator of whether things were done properly.

 

It's disappointing that this thread was just thrown off base and got obviously personal to those of us that are not in the "Know'. I've been quietly following it trying to learn from it, based on what Albion wrote in his earlier posts I had no idea he was at the trial and I don't see where he was complaining just stating his opionion on how the way the sheep are set affects the run, the thoughts were also confirmed in Vergil's answer in the Ask the Expert section "Contrary to popular opinion, it is much more difficult for any dog to lift off feed and makes the playing field more uneven." (Cut from Vergil's response.)

 

 

Deb

[juliepoudrier]

Deb,

I think Vergil's comment speaks to my point about sheep that are being held on grain being more forgiving of poor work at the top (so dogs that are not correct at the top aren't necessarily being penalized because the feed prevents the sheep for "telling on" those dogs as it were--this may be more of an issue in the east than in the west--I haven't trialed enough out west to form an opinion there). As others have noted, the other part of that is that sometimes the sheep (or cattle) don't want to move off the feed period, which isn't a great thing, especially when the dog is otherwise correct.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Deb,

I think Vergil's comment speaks to my point about sheep that are being held on grain being more forgiving of poor work at the top (so dogs that are not correct at the top aren't necessarily being penalized because the feed prevents the sheep for "telling on" those dogs as it were--this may be more of an issue in the east than in the west--I haven't trialed enough out west to form an opinion there). As others have noted, the other part of that is that sometimes the sheep (or cattle) don't want to move off the feed period, which isn't a great thing, especially when the dog is otherwise correct.

 

J.

 

 

Sorry, I should have linked the entire thread rather then just part http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=22296

 

His response was to the same question posed in this thread.

 

Deb

[stockdogranch]

Hay wasn't used in the years past at this trial when I ran in it

Hay has always been used at this trial, in both locations, with or without the horse,

 

A

[stockdogranch]

Actually, I've been thinking about this quit a bit, and have one more thing to say:

 

I know nothing of sheep in the UK, nor of sheep "back east"; all I know is range ewes, of varying ages and varying temperaments, out here in "the west" (CA, UT, ID, OR). And with all of these range ewes, both those that are set on hay and those that are not, their reaction is really quite consistent once they are settled. The dog is sent on the outrun, several sheep in the group notice the incoming dog and follow it with their eyes as it approaches. If the dog comes in confidently, steadily, generally they will move steadily. If the dog comes in rashly (too close, too fast, etc.), the sheep will move off rashly. However, if the dog either flanks back and forth off the pressure without moving in on them, OR lays there, staring, without moving in on them, or moves a few steps and then lays there again, and so on, the sheep tend to not want to lift. Seems to me it all goes back to the foundation work of helping a young dog learn to read and feel its stock--when it can do that, it can adjust accordingly to the stock it is presented with,

 

A

[KathyF]

It is interesting to read how much sheep are set on hay and/or grain out west or east. Here in the Midwest, MN, WI, ND I have yet to run in a trial that the sheep are being set on anything to eat other than the grass that is growing there. They are spotted with a dog and handler with no food. The only trials in this area that I have seen using grain are ACK trials. Just something interesting to me to note.

 

Kathy

[juliepoudrier]

Ah, you've figured out our secret. We're all closeted ACK herders here in the east.

 

J.

[Amelia]

"It's disappointing that this thread was just thrown off base and got obviously personal to those of us that are not in the "Know'."

 

Hello all,

 

it is precisely for those of you not in the know that I posted.

 

The trial in question is run on a very small field and there is no room at the top, especially with fresh range lambs. The set out pen and set out point are so close that the only "drifting" those lambs would do would be straight back to the pen with their tails over their backs, and a New Zealand rugby team wouldn't stop them. At least not all of them. And there's no grass to hold them. This is California, and that trial is held in high desert. No rain, no grass. Look at the pictures on my blog.

 

I could see that the sheep didn't want to come off the hay, so I asked my dog up hard. He was coming on smoothly, but that's not what was needed, so I changed our tactic. I never checked our score, but I may have had a 1 point lift and I walked off with my other dog at the cross drive panel because he was behaving rashly. It wasn't my day either, so I came home, sent a hand-written thank you note to our hostess and trained more. If I can only have a winning run when the circumstances favor my dogs, then I might as well stay home. I train them to adapt and I handle based on the situation that's presented. I've intentionally crossed my course when it was the only way to prevent the sheep from breaking back to the set out. I voted with my feet on that trial and haven't been back for years.

 

One problem with providing range sheep is that they come off grass pasture and sometimes they won't eat hay. So, you can throw them plenty and they remain hungry. But everybody wants to run on them because they're challenging and interesting and a great test to see what you need to work on in training. If you can lift and get around on them, you're going to be OK just about wherever you go.

 

And just to clarify, the sheep at Meeker are set with horses and dogs, at least for the 10 years I've been going. A volunteer list is established and, on our days off, competing hands take turns helping the cowboys at the top. 2 hands for the qualifiers and semis and 4 for the double lift. It hasn't always been that way, but after one year when set after set broke back, they changed the procedure in the interest of time.

[Albion Urdank]

Let me clarify. I was making a general point about not setting range lambs on hay, on allowing them to stand freely, and it was Amelia who raised the issue of this particular trial. But since she has, let me say further that I've been to this trial a few times, not last year, but the year before that and the year before that too, and on both those occasions, the same type of lambs were used from the same supplier, and on each occasion, they were set freely. The spotter had some difficulty initially, with her two dogs and horse, because of the draw, as Amelia describes it, but that got sorted out eventually, and the sheep standing freely worked very well once the right method of spotting got established. So I was a little surprised that hay was used this time. Amelia says that range lambs often don't eat hay because they graze on grass normally. That might be generally true, but as I pointed out, Asa's lot (on the second trial where he was first up) were gorging themselves, and the next handler was moved to comment on that. I should say too that Asa had no trouble lifting on the first go-round, when the sheep presumably, should have been more difficult to move, but then he ran 16th, not first, at a time when it was also warmer, (which should perhaps have made it more difficult for him). So I was dismayed by his failure in the second round to lift, because it was odd, and it is dismaying when an older dog comes to that after having had a good career (this is not at all about having to "win" the trial, as Amelia says).

 

I must say, too, that the sheep did not work the same way this time, as they had in previous years. Previously, they were exceptionally hard to move in the first round; one year, the first 8 or 9 dogs couldn't lift, though the sheep were free standing, and thereafter (Asa was the dog who broke the ice, incidentally) moving them around the course was often hard-going as the sheep periodically turned to challenge the dog, which happened in many runs, and which sometimes required a clean grip to keep them on the move. Only in the second round, when they had been broken, did they move more smoothly, though still heavily, and without offering the same level of challenge to the dog. This year, once they lifted, the sheep moved in the first round the way they had moved in the second round on previous occasions, and in the second round this year, they moved sluggishly, to be sure, but in the manner of school sheep, which made me feel they had been broken prior to trial. If true, that would of course be the host's right , but it may also account for why the sheep were set on hay, to offer a compensating challenge at the lift for having been prepped before trial. We should always be grateful to trial hosts for offering trials, and I certainly offered my sincere thanks upon leaving. No trial is perfect, and we can't expect them to be perfect. But handlers pay good money to enter trials and pay even more to attend them in terms of driving etc., which means that we have a fair right to comment on our experience. And hosts do appreciate that (the last trial I attended in N California, the host specifically asked handlers to send feedback comments; Soldier Hollow does the same routinely, and they become better trials for it over the long term). Finally, Meeker may use dogs, but they do so only as back-up, which I know about because I've done it; but they prefer to use horses primarily (the cowboy ethic), and to put the back up dog in a very, very secondary position).

 

Yours,

Albion

"It's disappointing that this thread was just thrown off base and got obviously personal to those of us that are not in the "Know'."

 

Hello all,

 

it is precisely for those of you not in the know that I posted.

 

The trial in question is run on a very small field and there is no room at the top, especially with fresh range lambs. The set out pen and set out point are so close that the only "drifting" those lambs would do would be straight back to the pen with their tails over their backs, and a New Zealand rugby team wouldn't stop them. At least not all of them. And there's no grass to hold them. This is California, and that trial is held in high desert. No rain, no grass. Look at the pictures on my blog.

 

I could see that the sheep didn't want to come off the hay, so I asked my dog up hard. He was coming on smoothly, but that's not what was needed, so I changed our tactic. I never checked our score, but I may have had a 1 point lift and I walked off with my other dog at the cross drive panel because he was behaving rashly. It wasn't my day either, so I came home, sent a hand-written thank you note to our hostess and trained more. If I can only have a winning run when the circumstances favor my dogs, then I might as well stay home. I train them to adapt and I handle based on the situation that's presented. I've intentionally crossed my course when it was the only way to prevent the sheep from breaking back to the set out. I voted with my feet on that trial and haven't been back for years.

 

One problem with providing range sheep is that they come off grass pasture and sometimes they won't eat hay. So, you can throw them plenty and they remain hungry. But everybody wants to run on them because they're challenging and interesting and a great test to see what you need to work on in training. If you can lift and get around on them, you're going to be OK just about wherever you go.

 

And just to clarify, the sheep at Meeker are set with horses and dogs, at least for the 10 years I've been going. A volunteer list is established and, on our days off, competing hands take turns helping the cowboys at the top. 2 hands for the qualifiers and semis and 4 for the double lift. It hasn't always been that way, but after one year when set after set broke back, they changed the procedure in the interest of time.

[stockdogranch]

I've been to this trial a few times, not last year, but the year before that and the year before that too, and on both those occasions, the same type of lambs were used from the same supplier, and on each occasion, they were set freely.

Albion, I really don't want to keep re-hashing this thing. But I said it before and I'll say it again, one more time: The sheep at this trial have ALWAYS been set on hay. Beyond that, I'm tired of talking about it,

 

A

[Albion Urdank]

That's fine. We can agree to disagree.

A

 

Albion, I really don't want to keep re-hashing this thing. But I said it before and I'll say it again, one more time: The sheep at this trial have ALWAYS been set on hay. Beyond that, I'm tired of talking about it,

 

A

[stockdogranch]

"Agree to disagree" implies that there is something of opinion in the issue. That hay has always been used at this trial is a plain and simple fact. I have done setout at this trial every year except last, and I KNOW that hay has always been used (even last year, when I did not do the setout).

A

[Albion Urdank]

I don't want to belabor the issue, but I recall my runs in details, and I know the sheep in them, at least, were NOT set on hay. In Asa's run, which I mentioned in an earlier post, the sheep had their heads high and were facing the handler; when he walked up, they turned half-way to face him. He then lifted and the fetch then began. You were holding the sheep with two dogs and a horse . You had had great difficulty getting them spotted and in holding them, taking a good deal of time in the earlier runs, as I recall, much to the judge's and host's frustration. Eventually, you got that sorted, but had there been hay, you would not have had that much difficulty initially in spotting. When the trial was held on the larger neighboring field, I remember sending Corey (now retired); the sheep likewise were held by a horse and at least one dog, their heads were up and they were looking down the field. The run was memorable because almost as soon as she left my side, the sheep you were holding broke to the fence line on my right, and she managed to get there before them and picked them up at about 3 o'clock. The run was memorable because she stopped them at the head, and turned them to complete the fetch and the judge didn't touch her outrun or lift, and the fetch only minimally (which I very much appreciated, because he could see that she hadn't caused that break). Now had they been set on hay, they wouldn't have broken. I can remember being a little annoyed that you didn't do a better job holding them, since all of the other sets you managed to hold well enough. Perhaps your use of hay was more selective than you remember. I think it would be good to let this go now.

Albion

 

"Agree to disagree" implies that there is something of opinion in the issue. That hay has always been used at this trial is a plain and simple fact. I have done setout at this trial every year except last, and I KNOW that hay has always been used (even last year, when I did not do the setout).

A

[Laurae]

Really, is this gratuitous blame throwing appropriate on a public board?

[stockdogranch]

Really, is this gratuitous blame throwing appropriate on a public board?

Apparently. Either blame the judge or the setout person.

Whatever,

A

[amc]

Just because a particular set of sheep didn't have their heads down eating the hay doesn't mean they 'weren't set on hay'. But based on your earlier arguments about hay causing an artificial lift, Albion, I'd think you'd be glad that your sheep weren't eating at the point of lift.

 

Amy

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I really am thankful for setout people.....they often get blamed and yet, it is a hard job.

 

Tess and I have worked many, many hrs of setout and it is amazing when the dog comes in worng, fast, grippy, or can't lift, etc and we get blamed. There are some sheep that are just plain hard to set and we try our best.

 

Last trial I ran at the setout crew could hardly hold the sheep and they bolted everywhere. They would not hold for food and you have to be very careful to have them stay in the general location. On both of my runs, the sheep moved and my dogs adjusted quickly...I didn't blame the crew and relied on my dogs to figure it out and they did (1st and 2nd place)....I kept my mouth shut and let the dogs lift the sheep.

 

Later I had to set sheep and even with calm and steady Tess, they were hair trigger light. Some of the sheep turned and stood the dogs off during the runs.

 

Runnign at trials, you play with the cards you are dealt with.

 

Thanks to the setout crew, exhaust crew, judge and all the people who work behind the lines to have a trial

 

Diane

[Sue R]

Yes, thanks to all that work hard to provide the very best trial and most consistent opportunities that they can. I don't trial but I do volunteer, and a steady refrain from some is to blame the sheep, the set-out, or the judge. Where I have been involved, it's the same folks that do pretty much all of the complaining and they always have some "reason" why they and their dog did not do as well as they'd like (as well as "reasons" why some other team did well - they got good sheep or a better set-out, etc. - rather than crediting good handling and stockwork on someone else's part).

 

There are people who don't host trials any more (or very rarely) because they are tired of the complaining. If someone doesn't like how a trial is run or judged or the sheep, they don't have to enter.

 

The best reaction to a disappointing run is, "That's sheepdog trialling,and what should I have done to do better?"

[Smokjbc]

I did set out once for about 5 runs (the open handlers were rotating) and that really made me appreciate the difficulty of it. I saw the conscientiousness of Anna's work first hand and her reputation for her and the dogs being one of the best setout crews is well deserved. My own experience with it is that I doubt I will ever want to do it again- at least not by myself. Too nerve wracking for me!

 

Having to travel so far for any dog trial makes me extremely appreciative of anyone who puts a sheep, a field and a judge together for us. I have had my share of putting on trials too, and most competitors are great to be around and are likewise very grateful for the opportunity to run their dogs.

[Albion Urdank]

I was glad, Amy, but would have been happier still if she hadn't released the pressure on them prematurely, very prematurely indeed. Corey's were the only lot that that had happened to, oddly enough . You need to read the subtext more carefully. The sheep were held by the dog and the horse, no hay.

 

Just because a particular set of sheep didn't have their heads down eating the hay doesn't mean they 'weren't set on hay'. But based on your earlier arguments about hay causing an artificial lift, Albion, I'd think you'd be glad that your sheep weren't eating at the point of lift.

 

Amy

[Albion Urdank]

I said we can agree to disagree, but you wouldn't let it go, would you? So now please try to let it go.

Albion

 

Apparently. Either blame the judge or the setout person.

Whatever,

A