Sheep herding training vs goat herding training

[OurBoys]

Is there a difference in the 2 training-wise? I'm wanting to get some dairy goats. Most of the places I've seen train dogs on sheep. Should I specifically look for someone who has goats to train my dog or if I have a problem finding someone who has goats, can/should I still get him trained on sheep?

 

I don't know anything about herding right now (so the training will be for my benefit as well as his) so any/all advice is appreciated!

[hsnrs]

We used to have dairy goats and they were very hard on the dogs. Get some training first. What kinds of goats do you have? We had Alpines.

[OurBoys]

We don't have the goats yet. As you suggested, I want to get the training first. I also want to get the dog started off on the right foot as well.

 

Because we don't have much property (IMO), when we do get them, I want to start off with 2-3 Nigerian Dwarf. I still have a lot of research/homework to do on the types of goats as well but right now, those are the ones I'm leaning towards. I know 2-3 aren't many but until I have some experience under my belt, I want to start off small. I can always build from there.

[ShoresDog]

It's too bad Anna (StockDogRanch) is probably on her way up to Soldier Hollow now, because I'm sure she could speak to your question. She just this week took a dog back to his home, that she had trained for a couple of months or so on sheep. The dog's job is to help with a herd of 300 goats. PM her if she doesn't see this topic.

[NCStarkey]

Hi Brenda,

 

By choice, I know very little about goats. However, when working sheep, it is not a good idea to use fewer than three sheep, as three seems to be the minimum number for them to "flock" together (rather than having the "every critter for itself" mentality). So, if the same holds true for working goats, the minimum number to purchase would be three. Also, since you and your dogs are new to stockwork, it would be wise to purchase animals that are already accustomed to being worked by a dog. The worst case scenario in stockwork is inexperienced handler, untrained dog, and non-dogged sheep/goats.

 

Regards,

nancy

[stockdogranch]

Well, I'm certainly no goat expert, but have worked some. Generally speaking, they do not flock as well as sheep. Lots of folks do use goats for starting dogs (seems like it's the cattle folks--maybe it's just part of the traditional sheep vs. cattle thing and they refuse to have sheep on their place ), and those are usually Boer goats, as I believe they do tend to flock better than lots of the dairy breeds. I would think you would be Ok to start on sheep, but you would want to work some goats that are used to a dog before you put your dog on fresh (never worked by a dog) goats. They can be a little more stubborn than your average sheep.

 

The dog Jan (Shoresdog) mentioned was primarily trained on sheep here, but to get him used to more ornery stock, I also had him work the calves here quite a bit. He was well prepared when he got home to his goats,

 

A

[mbernard2424]

I started my now four year old dog on goats (Boer) and am working my young dog (a year old) on goats and sheep now.

 

The reason why I got goats early on was because sheep, at that time, were extremely expensive. Goats were half the price. I learned a lot from the first set of goats and think it helped my dog as well, in fact, when I took him from goats to sheep, I took a lot of the push (that he learned from the goats) out of him and I wish I didn't do so. One of the many lessons I learned.

 

What I like about goats is when you take them out, it's a party, they do all they can to trick out the dog; with sheep, it's as if you are taking them out to slaughter. Goats don't panic and run into fences like sheep can. Goats will frequently break up so your dog has to learn to cover well. My dogs have learned a solid "go back" command from goats. Also, working goats has prepared them to work cattle.

 

All in all, I like working goats and hope to always have both sheep and goats to work my dogs on.

 

I am in NC and if you'd like to come out to try goats, contact me privately at bern8787 @ bellsouth.net (remove the spaces and you'll need to go through my spam filter).

 

Hope this helps,

 

Michelle

[mbernard2424]

I forgot to add, dairy goats are likely going to behave quite differently than Boer or Boer X goats. Dairy goats are often bottle fed so they become overly people friendly and as such, difficult to work or use to train a dog. The group I have right now have a lot of dairy blood in them, but they were not bottle fed. You might want to try to find dairy goats who were not bottle fed if you want goats to work as well. I do know of some very nice dairy goats for sale in NC, almost to the TN border (Bakersville) if you are interested.

 

Also, if you truly want dairy goats for the milk, you probably can't work them much as it will affect their milk production.

 

Michelle

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Karen (KillerH) from this board is down near Siler City, has raised goats for many, many years and is always happy to help newcomers to the world of raising livestock.

 

There are many of us who would love to help you with getting started. Don't be nervous getting stock, just get lots of reading material, get in touch with people who know their goats (a mentor is invaluable), and go for it!

 

Three goats is fine - they will likely end up being pets more than anything at first but that's best if you are milking anyway. Goats can be tough but if you start with them young they learn to mind more or less. If you pair learning how to handle them at home, with lessons with anyone with a lot of training experience (for goats you don't necessarily need to go to someone who has goats to get the basics on your dog), you'll learn fast!

[OurBoys]

Also, if you truly want dairy goats for the milk, you probably can't work them much as it will affect their milk production.

 

Michelle

 

Thanks for the advice, Michelle! Once Jake is trained, he won't have that far to take them.

 

My plan (for now) is to build an enclosure under our deck. There enough room under there to build a good size 'house' plus there's an electrically socket in case I have to have electricity for any reason.

 

The lower half of our lot isn't fenced in right now but once it is, all Jake will have to do is take the goats from their enclosure, cross the 'upper 40' into the 'lower 40' and reverse it in the evenings.

 

I appreciate your advice too, Becca! I'm going to make a run to the bookstore today!

 

I also want to thank everyone else too! The more I think about the end results, the more excited I'm getting!

[mbernard2424]

Thanks for the advice, Michelle! Once Jake is trained, he won't have that far to take them.

 

My plan (for now) is to build an enclosure under our deck. There enough room under there to build a good size 'house' plus there's an electrically socket in case I have to have electricity for any reason.

 

The lower half of our lot isn't fenced in right now but once it is, all Jake will have to do is take the goats from their enclosure, cross the 'upper 40' into the 'lower 40' and reverse it in the evenings.

 

I appreciate your advice too, Becca! I'm going to make a run to the bookstore today!

 

I also want to thank everyone else too! The more I think about the end results, the more excited I'm getting!

 

You may want to consider odor if you are housing them under your deck. Goats will (can) climb on most anything so they may end up on top of your deck rather than under it. I use ElectroNet for my critters and have had good success with it. Good luck with your ventures.

 

Michelle

[OurBoys]

Aaah, the odor. Yep, I've got a lot to learn.

 

btw, Becca, you're right. They will be pets as well.

[Bo Peep]

I had a ton of goats. Well, not a ton. 13 pygmy goats (my kids showed them in 4-H) an alpine, 2 La Mancha (no ears) and an angora. I came to the conclusion that "goats don't flock". At least in MY herd. Mine were all pets. The pygmy's walked on leashes and were "shown" LOL. The 2 buck pygmy's- P.U. Keep them in another pasture- they stink. The weathers are great. IF you are going for milk, I wouldn't want to start a dog on them. The milk won't be so good. I've never "milked goats" especially pygmies- tiny hands need to do that- LOL.

 

And the myth that they eat cans and everything is WRONG! I once left a tray of left over veggies out and they ignored most of them, although they loved xmas tress.

[Tea]

We raise sheep and goats. A dog that works goats has to have a more power. We have alpines and nubian dairy goats.

And crossbred dorset sheep.

The Alpines are bigger. The does in this herd terrorized the old owners dogs. (That was sad, when I bought them and came to move them I hadn't brought my dogs as I had seen she had border collies. We ended up loading them the hard way! Without dogs!)

But when we got home the goats discovered that they had to do what my dogs told them to do. These does would actually rear up and twist their heads and challenge a dog that way.

My little Gunny thought it was pretty funny. Cap however thought it weird. Cap doesn't like to head. (Grip) Gunny will hit both ends hard if you ask her. So for Cap it was harder to move them as he would have to scoot around behind. While Gunny after teaching the lead does that she would bite them would just use eye to back them down.

 

I don't think I would ever start a dog on older goats. Maybe kids. Same with cattle, calves but not cows.

[juliepoudrier]

One reason people who want dogs to work cattle will start on goats is because goats behave a lot more like cattle than sheep do, but they are less likely to damage a dog while it's still learning. Goats are more independent, have less of a tendency to flock, and are more likely to try to outwit or challenge the dog. If I were starting a newbie dog I would certainly want to start with dog-broke kids and not adult goats.

 

Most people who keep goats for dog training use boer or boer X. Another concern I'd have with working dairy goats (at least with an untrained dog) is the possibility of damage to the udder if the dog grips when and where it shouldn't. And a dog really does need a grip when working goats, IMO.

 

Also, remember that pet goats, like pet sheep or cattle, will not behave quite the same way as animals who are not pets living in a flock. Keeping a few as people friendly pets will add a layer of complexity to your training.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Also, remember that pet goats, like pet sheep or cattle, will not behave quite the same way as animals who are not pets living in a flock. Keeping a few as people friendly pets will add a layer of complexity to your training.

 

Julie, I think, and I don't want to speak for her but this is an impression I get chatting privately - that her interest is in the dairy goats and she wants to get help to train the dogs separately, and then she will have them ready if she needs them. I don't think she wants the goats to train the dogs on.

 

I knew someone with a mixed flock of pet goats, Boers for dog working, one dairy goat (Alpine), and then a bunch of sheep - some hair, some wool, including one bottle lamb. Yikes! But it was possible to work them with some help from equipment and very good dogs. You just couldn't train on that lot, forget it.

[OurBoys]

Julie, I think, and I don't want to speak for her but this is an impression I get chatting privately - that her interest is in the dairy goats and she wants to get help to train the dogs separately, and then she will have them ready if she needs them. I don't think she wants the goats to train the dogs on.

 

Becca, you're right. I want to get into herding really bad but with dh's paycheck being the only one coming into the house, I can't do it just for fun or to 'just see' what Jake has. I want to get into making goat cheese so that's why I've decided on dairy goats. IMO, we don't have much land so I feel I need dwarf goats as well. I found a Nigerian Dwarf dairy goat farm just a couple of hours from here. Dh is going to be on vacation next week so I'm going to see if he'll go with me to visit the farm. I don't know anything about how bad they smell but if it's possible, I want their main housing area to be under the deck. (We have a large deck and with our house being on a hill, you can actually stand up straight under it.) Once the bottom half of our lot is fenced in, Jake can have a real job moving the goats from their main housing from under the deck to the field each morning and back again in the evening. With a real job (even though small) waiting on Jake in the future, the money I spend on herding lessons will make more sense.

[juliepoudrier]

Brenda,

Do you mind saying what farm you're going to? There's Cud-Zu up near (Efland/Mebane) where I used to live and I believe they have Nigerians. I used to buy their soap whenever I could!

 

J.

[OurBoys]

Julie, this is it!

 

KidsCorral

 

I don't know if they make/sale items from their goats milk though. I'll be going for educational purposes. (Ex: type of fencing, temperment, size, etc.)

 

I do have another question...When starting a dog with training, is it best to start off with verbal commands or a whistle?

 

Jake knows his (obedience) commands but his recall is much faster with the whistle. The whistle also gets his attention when he's totally engrossed in something when verbal commands don't.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You'll find out - when you start out it's really not about commands, but rather bringing out and shaping the instincts your dog has, and teaching them to respond to you while using those instincts. So don't be too anxious ahead of time what your dog needs to know - just work on strengthening you relationship with your dog so he responds better when you talk to him.

 

I've bought Cud-zu soap before too! I'm addicted to goat soap (goat cheese too - I can enjoy goat cheddar and other cheese without it messing up my hormones - sheep cheese too yum!).

 

I'm not sure, but I think nannies and wethers are not any worse than any other livestock as far as smell. My friend that I mentioned keeps her nannies and wether kids in a pen right near the house, and there's no noticeable goat smell. Actually, I think my wool sheep smell worse because their urine catches in the fleece.

 

I know the difference, because one year she kept a small group of bucks kids in a shelter across the way and you could smell it in the house with the windows and doors shut!

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, it's only the bucks that have a foul odor, but then I think if the "stall" area under the deck gets dirty, you could get the smell of eau du goat poo and pee! (ETA: Another thing to consider is that most decks are not water tight, so you may need to put some sort of roof under the deck and over the goats' heads; otherwise their stable area will be soaked every time it rains--and goats are a bit more susceptible to cold/rain than other livestock. I use a leaky barn, and when it rains, the bedding just holds the wetness in, which means it requires a lot more work to keep things clean and dry.)

 

Brenda,

If you want to visit a neat dairy, check out Goat Lady Dairy in Climax, NC (near here). I've bought some of their cheeses before and they are absolutely, amazingly delicious. They don't have dwarf goats, but I still think it would be a neat place to visit just to see a goat dairy operation.

 

And here's Cud-Zu's link.

 

Crooked Cedar Farm sells Nigerian dwarves (this is the Nigerian Dwarf place that I used to see advertised when I lived in Orange County).

 

If/when you do finally decide to buy dairy goats, you'll want to pay close attention to milking characteristics like udder conformation, milk amounts produced (the breeder should have records for her lines), etc. It's a smart idea to be looking around and educating yourself now so you'll know what to look for when you finally decide to buy.

 

As for your training question, generally a good recall is all that's necessary to start, and frankly, that may fall by the wayside. Most folks start out with voice commands and eventually transition over to whistles, but there's nothing stopping anyone from just starting with whistles. I like having the voice commands too, because when we are up close working with livestock (say when penning or shedding) I can modulate my voice to calm both stock and dog better than I could do with whistles.

 

J.

[Bo Peep]

I remember I just gently brushed against my prize buck "Dancing with Hooves" and then visited my neighbor 2 hours later and she said "Honey- take a bath, you stink!" Bucks can be quite stinky.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I used to raise dairy goats. I've had Nubians and Alpines. I've also had Boer x and Angora X. The bucks generally only smell musky during the breeding season, which for dairy breeds is in fall. I worked my milking does with dogs, even if they had kids at their sides. The dog has to be smart to work them though. Goats will try to figure out anything they can do to outwit the dog. It is typical of goats to rear up and come down butting. That is how they play and how they fight. Goats will turn and face a dog if they push too hard. The boer and angoras seem to flock a bit better than the dairy breeds, and I ran some of mine with sheep and they would keep themselves segregated from the sheep. It was easy to tell my dog to just fetch the goats as they usually kept themselves apart from the sheep. I think they think they are better than sheep. Kids, like lambs are hard to herd as they have no fear of dogs. Here is my Meg dog with a Angora baby and Mama. Meg did grip the does nose after I snapped this pic. Meg was a very good at correct grips.

 

 

 

[OurBoys]

I can see Meg's 'lips' curled back in that 2nd picture! Thanks for posting those pictures! I have to admit I was a bit concerned about, if Jake takes to goats and he's trained on adults, how will he treat the kids. Your pictures put my uneasiness to rest. If he and I have what it takes, I feel the goats will be ok.

 

Julie, you're right about our deck not being waterproofed. We've been talking about getting some of that hard corrugated plastic to put up underneath the bottom so it can channel and run off. We won't be able to fence in the lower part of our lot until we get our refund next year but that's ok. That will give me months to research, study and take lessons. It will also give me time to be able to decide what fencing would be best for us.

 

I have to admit though. The more I read on dairy goats, the more leary I get. This might be old info but I found a website about Nigerian Dwarf goats. Someone had wrote in asking "If a person were to drink unpasteurized milk from a goat with CAE, what, if any, harmful effects would that have on us? Does pasteurizing milk definitely kill the desease?" Their answer "CAE virus is inside the infected cells in colostrum of milk. Pasteurization inactivates the virus and is an effective control program. Humans who drink unpasteurized milk from goats may develp antibodies to CAE that cross react in the HIV test." Being such a novice, I'm thinking I might be better off starting off with Pygmies until I get more comfortable in raising them and grow from there. Thanks for posting those links! One of these days, I'm going to make it a point to visit Goat Lady Dairy Farm! That place looks amazing! (And I have to sample their cheeses!!)

[mbernard2424]

Being such a novice, I'm thinking I might be better off starting off with Pygmies until I get more comfortable in raising them and grow from there. Thanks for posting those links! One of these days, I'm going to make it a point to visit Goat Lady Dairy Farm! That place looks amazing! (And I have to sample their cheeses!!)

 

You don't want to work your dog on Pygmy goats, they are goats with Napoleon syndrome, they'll fight like heck and they have those nasty, spikey horns which could cause damage if used on your dogs.

 

The woman in the mountains I spoke of has a few goats she wants to place as pets if that would be something you are interested in. The people close to you may have the same availability. These are goats that are retired from milking that they want in good homes.

 

One thought on keeping goats under your deck, you may want to check your local zoning and health codes. Keeping livestock so close to your house may be against regulations.

 

For an inexpensive shelter so you can keep your animals away from your house, look for Shelter Logic shelters. They have a 6 x 8 shelter (I think that's the dimensions) that is relatively inexpensive.

 

 

Michelle