to wear or not to wear, that's the question...

[kelpiegirl]

'K, so I think my dog would be a tad bit less pushy if I could have her drive to the panels in our novice trials. She is always pushy to me, but when I have her drive sheep, she is just well, MUCH nicer- she stays off, and is ready for a down, and ready for a flank- maybe not perfect, but a heck of a lot more calm. It's like ME brings out the bad... Anyway, I am thinking I should just do the assisted drive with her, and be prepared that she might lose it and cover- which could happen- will happen, if the sheep bolt- but if I have her far enough off, maybe it won't? Anyway, anyone have any insight as to keeping things calm from the start?

[juliepoudrier]

Julie

With the assisted drive you can walk along with her or not far from her. Mightn't that help you keep things under better control (that is, you're close enough to make her listen)?

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi J

Yes, that's what I think- she behaves much better when I let her be in the driving seat, so to speak. When I try and wear, it's just a pushy-fest, unless I shut her down (which is close to off contact). Conversely, she is down right calm when driving and can drive pretty far- when I am not responding to her pushiness which amps her up even more....

[Laurae]

Hi Julie,

I don't think I understand the question. If Lucy can drive, why would you want to wear?

I would never be able to wear with Taz, but he drives fine. (We don't have any option to wear in our trials out here.)

[kelpiegirl]

Um, well, most folks in the east start out that way- then they progress to a/d and then p/n. I guess it's an apron strings sort of thing. I have the illusion of control if she is wearing to me- I am always IN the picture, and when she is driving I am OUT of the picture.

[juliepoudrier]

I would never be able to wear with Taz, but he drives fine. (We don't have any option to wear in our trials out here.)

Hmmm...this brings to mind a conversation that was held at a handler's meeting at a novice trial at Steve Clendenin's when I was just starting out. (This would be eight or so years ago, so my memory of the comments made might not be exact, but the gist should be correct.) Kent Kuykendall was judging, and someone in the meeting had asked a question about what the point was of learning to wear. I'm sure not everyone would agree with Kent's answer, but the answer was that if you ever want to be able to shed properly it's helpful if your dog learns to work the sheep between you and it properly, as you do while wearing. He also told some of us one time that if you can wear the sheep into the shedding ring (assuming the pen comes first), that you would be in a much better position to line them out and settle them as they enter the ring and take your shed cleanly. So he at least thought there was a logical reason why novice handlers might want to learn to wear....

 

ETA: Laura, my comments aren't directed at you and Taz, but rather at the idea that wearing is just not done where you are.

 

J.

[Laurae]

Interesting. I've never really tried it, except once at the only ASCA trial I ever entered, during my first year of training with Taz. It was an unmitigated disaster, which is why I think we'd be terrible at it, but that was a long time ago. I think I will have to play around and try it now...

[Laurae]

Um, well, most folks in the east start out that way- then they progress to a/d and then p/n. I guess it's an apron strings sort of thing. I have the illusion of control if she is wearing to me- I am always IN the picture, and when she is driving I am OUT of the picture.

 

Oh, don't get me wrong--I didn't mean to sound critical. Actually I'm quite jealous. I wish we had the option of wearing or an assisted drive in our novice/novice classes. Most of the trials around here go from N/N (tiny outrun, lift, fetch, pen) to open ranch (can be a 350-yard outrun, lift, fetch, drive, cross drive, and pen). It's a HUGE jump, which is why Taz and I will probably be stuck in the novice class forever...

 

ETA: we did have a few novice fun trials over the winter, where we had maybe 100-yard outruns and one leg of a drive that could be assisted if we wanted, and that was helpful...

[Pearse]

'K, so I think my dog would be a tad bit less pushy if I could have her drive to the panels in our novice trials. She is always pushy to me, but when I have her drive sheep, she is just well, MUCH nicer- she stays off, and is ready for a down, and ready for a flank- maybe not perfect, but a heck of a lot more calm. It's like ME brings out the bad.

 

My guess is that she's learning to drive so isn't as confident and hesitant to take the bit between her teeth on the drive and run with it lest the sheep escape. Seems common with young dogs. You still need her to to learn pace on the wear/fetch and to listen to your "take time" or "steady" command because sooner or later she'll figure the driving out and will stop being hesitant but will still ignore you as far as pace goes.

 

It's not you. It's just her comfort level right now.

 

As an aside, most judges would let you drive or an "assisted drive" (walk behind) in Novice as the goal is to get you driving and moving up to ProNovice/Ranch. Ask at the handler's meeting. Worst thing can happen is they would say no.

 

Pearse

[Bo Peep]

I did the same thing just like you. I didn't know which option was best- let the dog drive and fail or let me walk with it and (maybe) lose some points. I did not lose points. They saw that I was helping my dog and her confidence level and I personally feel, that you should assist. It's just a trial and letting your dog "crash & burn" is much worse than letting her go in with a feeling of confidence and a job well done. Albeit, it's been awhile for me, but I do have quite a few trials under my belt and I know both the feelings of a job well done assisted and a job that was NOT well done. Just my usual 2 cents. Best of luck- take video's and let us know which way you went.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think if it were me I wouldn't be in a hurry to trial one way or another, until I'd gotten my dog settled enough to where I trusted him on a wear. Oh wait, that is true of me and Ted.

 

This bears repeating, I think. It's how I always viewed it (I don't remember learning this from Kent for some reason, but it's highly possible I was at the same trial):

 

I'm sure not everyone would agree with Kent's answer, but the answer was that if you ever want to be able to shed properly it's helpful if your dog learns to work the sheep between you and it properly, as you do while wearing.

 

As someone who uses a dog every day for practical reasons, I've found that a dog that's not trustworthy on the wear, is also going to have problems with other basic things that involve reading pressure correctly, like holding sheep, sorting, and as Kent pointed out, holding a group of sheep steady for a shed. If one's answer to the exercise of wearing is, "Lie down! Lie down! Lie down!" it will be rather difficult to move up to Open.

 

However, I've also found that working the dog getting sheep off fences, in small pens, etc, helps the dog with wearing. Rushing and pushing are so very problematic in those situations that the dog figures out better ways to do these tasks quickly.

[jomur]

I thought I'd add two points to this topic:

1.In NEBCA at the N-N level it is permitted to wear,assist drive or drive.This allows a N-N handler to gradually progress to the P-N level..

2.Julie re Kent's statement re wearing the sheep to the shedding ring.That is contrary to the "rules".The dog should not be assisted in bringing the sheep to the ring.Wearing would be an assist.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

That is contrary to the "rules".The dog should not be assisted in bringing the sheep to the ring.Wearing would be an assist.

 

I'm sitting here trying to recall trials I've seen and conversations with handlers I've had (local and from overseas) - and I don't think wearing is necessarily assisting. We're talking about the dog bringing sheep versus driving them, not the handler standing/running in front of the sheep waving the stick at them to block them. That's how I want to be wearing anyway. The dog 100% in control of the stock, and my job is just to indicate where they go - but at the novice level I want the dog to demonstrate that he can hold them to me, too - and as naturally as possible. That requires that I walk ahead as a moving point of balance. A dog that is comfortable settling sheep in this situation has taken care of half the battle in the shedding ring. That's how I understood this when Open handlers talked about it. I could very well be wrong, since I haven't "been there" yet.

[kelpiegirl]

I think you are right Pearse I shall put up a couple of pics that illustrate the "difference" shall we say of attitude in driving versus wearing. Part of her problem is her being exposed to very push by me sheep- a LOT, in other words, sheep that don't stick to me, but sheep that run by, and she is *always* on the edge of being ready to cover, which in turn becomes pushy, which in turns pushes the sheep....

 

Here she is wearing nicely

Here she is being pushy (note- the set out pen was in that direction)

Here she is driving calmly

 

 

 

 

My guess is that she's learning to drive so isn't as confident and hesitant to take the bit between her teeth on the drive and run with it lest the sheep escape. Seems common with young dogs. You still need her to to learn pace on the wear/fetch and to listen to your "take time" or "steady" command because sooner or later she'll figure the driving out and will stop being hesitant but will still ignore you as far as pace goes.

 

It's not you. It's just her comfort level right now.

 

As an aside, most judges would let you drive or an "assisted drive" (walk behind) in Novice as the goal is to get you driving and moving up to ProNovice/Ranch. Ask at the handler's meeting. Worst thing can happen is they would say no.

 

Pearse

[Mark Billadeau]

This is from the judging guidelines:

 

When the shed is after the pen the handler will proceed to the shedding ring leaving the dog to bring the stock from the pen to the ring. The handler is forbidden to assist the dog in moving the stock.

This sounds like a fetch or wear depending upon the distance between the pen and the ring.

 

The only difference between a fetch and a wear is whether or not you're moving. In both cases the dog is balancing the sheep to you. If the dog is not pacing while wearing it's unlikely to be pacing while fetching; you're just managing the fetch with a down which you can also do while wearing.

 

How close is your dog to the sheep when you're balancing?

 

Mark

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

I think that some good points have already been made by others, but I would like add my shovelful, as well.

 

Wearing is one of the foundations of stockdog training, and most of us do a good bit of it combined with balance work when starting young dogs. We do a lot of "walk-abouts" with the young dog bringing the sheep along in a calm and relaxed manner. If the dog is pushing the sheep past us, then the dog is not correct and needs to reminded to stay off the stock.

 

There are many dogs that have problems working calmly "close at hand". Often, this is because the handler is creating tension in the dog. We get "uptight", and we feed this anxiety to the dog. I have found that the more calm we are when correcting our dogs, the more calmly they respond. I have found that if we use "calm, quiet authority" (the same type of "power" that the dogs use when they work stock), the dogs respond well without increasing their anxiety. Often, the more "active" we are when correcting our dogs, the more excitement we create in the dog. I have found that racing at our dogs with arms (sticks, hats, etc.) flailing causes more problems than it corrects. My preferred method of correcting my dogs is to square my body to the dog, lower my head, glare at the dog, clench my teeth, point my finger at the dog, and walk toward the dog while quietly telling it to "knock it off". This correction can easily be overdone, so please use only the mildest form of any correction that gets the desired results.

 

Thanks for posting the photos, "kelpiegirl" (sorry, I don't know your name), and I think that they illustrate my point well. Check out your body language in the first two photos. In the first photo, when you dog is more relaxed, you are calmly (well, kinda) moving in the direction that you want the sheep to go. In the second photo, you are shall we say a bit less than calm, and so is the dog (but I realize that in the second photo, you are probably trying to correct the dog for pushing too hard). Our dogs usually behave the way we do. Make sense?

 

I agree with Pearse that your dog probably works more calmly when driving because she is a bit less confident about that task (which is not a bad thing at this stage). But, she still needs to learn to work calmly close at hand, so don't stop the wearing exercises until she is working correctly.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[kelpiegirl]

Thanks Nancy- I will keep working on the wear (more) and work hard on relaxing when I ask for her to lay off a bit.

[PSmitty]

There are many dogs that have problems working calmly "close at hand". Often, this is because the handler is creating tension in the dog. We get "uptight", and we feed this anxiety to the dog. I have found that the more calm we are when correcting our dogs, the more calmly they respond. I have found that if we use "calm, quiet authority" (the same type of "power" that the dogs use when they work stock), the dogs respond well without increasing their anxiety. Often, the more "active" we are when correcting our dogs, the more excitement we create in the dog. I have found that racing at our dogs with arms (sticks, hats, etc.) flailing causes more problems than it corrects. My preferred method of correcting my dogs is to square my body to the dog, lower my head, glare at the dog, clench my teeth, point my finger at the dog, and walk toward the dog while quietly telling it to "knock it off". This correction can easily be overdone, so please use only the mildest form of any correction that gets the desired results.

 

Nancy, this is such wise advice. Exactly what I'm working on right now.

[Debbie Meier]

..not to wear...I've been trying to drive all my novice courses, I figure there is no sense going through the course letting my dog balance the sheep to me just to have to loose all ability to assist when I move up to pro-novice. After my fetch I'm having the dog drive the sheep past me, turn the post and hopefully past me the second time lining them up for the drive panel, right now I have to assist him every few times by turning and stepping back off the post a few steps to get him going, basically leading him into the drive. A couple weeks ago the judge asked my I would make my dog drive the first panel when he said I could fetch, my dog got hung up in the transition costing me the win (ended up with a 12 point hit right there), I frankly told the judge that I need it for Pro-novice. He was cool with that, saying it made sense trying to work to the next level. The handler that won only scored 4 points more then I did overall and fetched the entire course, yeah that little attempt to raise my own bar cost, but I feel like will be better prepared next time. Next Wednesday we will be running Ranch, can't leave the post until the sheep get past the first drive panel to assist at the Y chute, if the wheels stay on and if I can get that turn without him balancing the sheep to me we should be in good shape...hope hope hope...

 

 

 

Deb

[Mark Billadeau]

Helping the dog with the transition from balance to drive.

 

Balance the sheep around the post. When the dog is behind the post, stop the dog, and you finish walking around the post to where you're also behind the post. Now the dog is in driving position without having to make the transition itself. Of course this requires calm sheep.

 

Mark

[NCStarkey]

Hi Paula,

 

Nancy, this is such wise advice. Exactly what I'm working on right now.

 

Thanks so much for your kind words. I have been fortunate to work with some truly outstanding sheepdog trainers/handlers, and I am very thankful for their expert guidance. It has been almost 20 years since I started my first sheepdog, and there aren't many mistakes that I haven't made in training my dogs. But, hopefully, I have learned from those mistakes and am happy to share a few suggestions with others. Hey, I've been there...done that, too.

 

Regards,

nancy

[NCStarkey]

Hello Deb,

 

..not to wear...I've been trying to drive all my novice courses, I figure there is no sense going through the course letting my dog balance the sheep to me just to have to loose all ability to assist when I move up to pro-novice.

 

Well, I imagine that makes sense, IF you are simply training your dog for trialing. However, IMO, to develop a solid training foundation, a dog should be taught to quietly wear the sheep and calmly work close at hand. Different stokes, I guess.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Laurae]

Which prompts me to ask the question I've been wondering about since this thread started...if Taz is already driving, should we go back and learn to wear properly? I guess after reading these replies that I know the answer. As I noted before, I haven't done much wearing with Taz. I do have him walk a large group of sheep through a pasture so we can put them in a pen down at the other end of our space to work them, but really he's mostly driving, though I'm walking with him. But I have discovered that I inadvertently skipped several foundation skills while training him, and I guess I can now add the ability to wear calmly to that list.

[Debbie Meier]

Helping the dog with the transition from balance to drive.

 

Balance the sheep around the post. When the dog is behind the post, stop the dog, and you finish walking around the post to where you're also behind the post. Now the dog is in driving position without having to make the transition itself. Of course this requires calm sheep.

 

Mark

 

 

Thanks Mark, I think you posted that advice a few weeks back and that is what got me thinking that I better get doing, I started that way which he does fine at, now I'm just having little burps when I don't make the turn and ask him to do it without me. The sheep at the last trial did no help much either, they were heavily drawn to the handler and to the pen, making it even harder to convince the dog to not balance them to you.

 

Deb

[Pippin's person]

Hey Julie,

 

Can you describe more what is going on in that second picture in terms of where Lucy and the sheep came from and how far away they were to start with? Which direction is "that direction"? (Sorry, i'm sure I"m being dense here)

 

I don't have the experience to actually address your question about wearing (which I always think is spelled "waring".... ) , but in that second picture, it looks like everything was pretty bunched up--like she didn't have quite enough room to straighten out the fetch line before she got to you. Was she so tight that the sheep were zig zagging around and that's why she's flanking?

 

Do you think just stretching things out would help? Or do you think doing more tight work where she had to learn to handle the pressure of being close would help? (I'm pretty much parroting things that have been offered to me for certain similar problems--though not with wearing)