to wear or not to wear, that's the question...

[Debbie Meier]

Deb,

 

As you can see my use of the term balance is not the same as yours. My use is specific for the ability/instinct related to gathering not generally for the working attitude around stock.

 

In my previous examples, there were issues (2 faults) with the dog that created a situation and then the dog defaulted to its instinct (gather the sheep).

 

With a dogleg fetch the dog should want to stop at the balance point (the place behind the sheep that would lift them directly to you); this will not be correct for a dogleg fetch. With most dogs you will be fighting their instinct (balance) in order to make the dog leg fetch.

 

In the next case the dog did not stop at the balance point; this could occur even if the dog is off far enough to not disturb the sheep (dogs with a lot of eye, dogs going to the heads, dogs not reading the pressure correctly), the default should be to gather the sheep to you (that's the instinct).

 

Young dogs learning to drive (especially ones with a very strong balance instinct) will often turn the sheep back into a gather because that is their instinct. These dogs often need more instruction to keep them on the drive line.

 

Mark

 

Mark, you added more...

 

I get where your coming from now, I just need to change my definition of balance as only to the handler. But, question, if your dog is driving the stock on a drive away from you or on a cross drive how is he controlling their direction without you manually adjusting his position? I'm looking at having my dog hold that line without me adjusting his position or stopping him, but by allowing him to rate himself and adjust his location to maintain the sheep on the line.

 

Deb

[Eileen Stein]

I use "balance" in both the sense Deb is using and the sense Mark is using. I think a lot of people do, and the context determines the meaning. If I was teaching a dog to drive, for example, I would be conscious that he's likely to "want to go around to balance," meaning to where he is balancing the sheep to me (Mark's definition). But I also would want him to "find the balance point" to make them continue on the line I'd started him on (Deb's definition). I think balance can be used even to describe what a dog is doing when he holds a shed -- finding the place(s) he needs to be to keep the sheep from getting past him. We most often have occasion to talk about balance in the sense of balancing to the handler, but I think whenever a dog has a good sense of where he needs to be to be in control of the sheep it's correct to say he has good balance. When he first goes to sheep and wants to hold them in a corner, and succeeds at it, he's showing some balance. After we convince him that we are "the moveable corner" (as somebody -- Pope Robertson? -- used to say), which we usually establish and reinforce by doing a lot of wearing, his default becomes balancing them to us, and that becomes the default meaning of "balance," but the talent/ability is the same.

 

It does seem that most border collies find it easier to develop their sense of balance in a gathering context than in a driving context -- the normal progression of training -- but some seem to be naturals at driving. I think the question of whether you could work with that kind of dog on developing balance on the drive first, and then use that to improve their fetching/wearing balance, is an interesting one. I would be too dubious about the outcome to try it -- I would be afraid balancing to the handler would never become the default if you did it "backwards" like that, and I do want it to be the dog's default (unlike Deb, I guess?) -- but it's an interesting question.

[Lenajo]

I know a couple of successful handlers who have taught driving first if that's what the dog presented. It's not the norm. I did note some mention of that type dog in John Templeton's book, and I saw some in Derek S's video. The pup offered a quiet drive, and it was accepted.

 

My current,and evolving, defination of balance is similar to Elaine's. Basically it's the position the dog needs to be on the sheep to move them in the desired direction. I don't think a human has to be involved, though we can condition them to expect that and to work towards that.

 

I think some dogs can be overconditioned to handler balance, and then are totally befuddled when they are expected to simple balance the sheep to a direction of travel alone. This doesn't usually happen with dogs of Open handlers - probably because we are too darn impatient to stay too long on handler balance work.But those coming up slowly from the Novice ranks - not so easy.

 

I would think it also depends on the dog. If you have a strong line dog, wihch incidently those handlers I'm thinking of aboft, then it doesn't need much handler balance work to get the point. It just needs control commands and widening - the rest of the stuff.

 

But if the dog were a bit floppy on pressure, maybe a bit loose eyed?

[Debbie Meier]

I would be afraid balancing to the handler would never become the default if you did it "backwards" like that, and I do want it to be the dog's default (unlike Deb, I guess?) -- but it's an interesting question.

 

 

I think I mentioned earlier that I'm working under the assumption that a dog naturally fetches, I'm not trying to reprogram a default, it's already there. Just waiting until I have more control before I unleash the beast.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

If I was teaching a dog to drive, for example, I would be conscious that he's likely to "want to go around to balance," meaning to where he is balancing the sheep to me (Mark's definition). But I also would want him to "find the balance point" to make them continue on the line I'd started him on

 

I call that "drive balance" to distinguish it from balancing sheep to the handler.

[Denise Wall]

I think I mentioned earlier that I'm working under the assumption that a dog naturally fetches, I'm not trying to reprogram a default, it's already there. Just waiting until I have more control before I unleash the beast.

 

Deb

 

I agree with Eileen that it can be a risky thing to do. The natural fetch [gather] in each of them is not equal. I've had a few really strong natural driving dogs. I don't think their gather would have been acceptable had I not put most of the early emphasis on it rather than driving. My goal is to make them as equal and well rounded as possible in the various skills. That may require starting and working them each differently depending on what kind of dog they are.

[MickeyDogs]

What she (Denise) said (how do you make those pointy uppy arrows?). Each dog is an individual and their talents & skills are individual. I think use it or lose it could apply here. Focus on one part of the training and weaken the other necessary skills.

 

Interesting thread, all. Thanks!

[Debbie Meier]

What she (Denise) said (how do you make those pointy uppy arrows?).

 

 

Will this one work?

 

 

or this one...

[abcollie]

I use "balance" in both the sense Deb is using and the sense Mark is using. I think a lot of people do, and the context determines the meaning. If I was teaching a dog to drive, for example, I would be conscious that he's likely to "want to go around to balance," meaning to where he is balancing the sheep to me (Mark's definition). But I also would want him to "find the balance point" to make them continue on the line I'd started him on (Deb's definition). I think balance can be used even to describe what a dog is doing when he holds a shed -- finding the place(s) he needs to be to keep the sheep from getting past him. We most often have occasion to talk about balance in the sense of balancing to the handler, but I think whenever a dog has a good sense of where he needs to be to be in control of the sheep it's correct to say he has good balance. When he first goes to sheep and wants to hold them in a corner, and succeeds at it, he's showing some balance. After we convince him that we are "the moveable corner"

 

Interesting discussion :~)

 

I think a dog can be well balanced driving or fetching. A dog in balance is on the pressure point that will allow him to move the sheep in a flowing motion ... We the handler decide the direction (fetch or drive) while the dog finds the balance.

 

Some dogs try to find balance by flanking (those tend to be the ones that slide on the drive ... trying to fetch) and some by lining the sheep out (those are usually the hard to flank ones)... we the handler have to work with what the dog has to offer.

 

Again ... a thought provoking discussion.

 

Candy Kennedy

www.abcollie.com

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

Hi all,

 

I hadn't been able to work the dogs since last week, but finally got out yesterday (in thunder and torrential rain, yay!). We were able to work some of the exercises that were posted earlier, thank you!, and also used a one that was very effective for me and my girls. I hope I can describe it correctly.

 

We were using not-too-fast sheep, and worked the dog essentially on a circle. I stayed close to the sheep, and flanked the dog, but just a very short flank. I would slowly step or walk to the side in the same direction as the dog was going. This had the effect of having my dogs feel as though they were coming onto the balance point within a few strides, so they would stop on balance. This little exercise also caused my dogs to widen out off the sheep, and also flank more slowly (presumably as they were expecting to stop soon after they started going). We mixed it up with very short outruns and wearing, and saw a big difference in all these elements, most especially in the younger dog.

 

Denise and Lenajo (sorry I've fogotten your name), I 100% understand & agree with your suspicion of how I'm asking the dogs up. My volume and tone of voice are things I've had to work hard at and no doubt I fall back into old habits from time to time. In the case of walking up, however, it's mainly the tense/excitable nature of my dogs (mother & daughter). My "wa-a-a-a-lk" is very slow and low. I don't even use "walk up" because those two words together are choppy-sounding. Wa-a-a-a-lk isn't too hard for me because I'm generally only asking them in if things are already settled or under control. It's possible that I say it too hurried from time to time (I certainly can't remember every single time I've asked them up), but I don't think it's a problem--and if it were, my instructor would point it out to me right away.