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Correct work at the top


juliepoudrier
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Okay, since I just posted in the Coffee Break section that the working dog people need to make the working sections more useful and active, I am putting my money where my mouth is and starting a topic here.

 

Here's a little background. I set sheep for a trial this week--all classes. The sheep hadn't had much of anything done to them in the past year, so they were mostly undogged. The flock consisted of ewes (old enough to be used to being worked by dogs in the past), yearlings (probably not worked by dogs, or certainly not much), and little lambs. For all classes but novice-novice, we used one ewe, one yearling, and one lamb. We held with corn of P/N and N/N (to try and prevent wrecks before the run even started), but not for open ranch and open. The sheep were not easy to hold, although inexplicably they would sometimes stay put even for dogs who were coming in "wrong." And that brings me to the "meat" of my question.

 

The best way to see just how dogs work at the top is to set out sheep. I am always surprised by the number of dogs who are tight, who aren't even apparently looking for sheep, who get to the top and sniff around or lift their legs, who react badly to any movement from the set out person, who seem entirely dependent on thier handler to know what to do once they get behind the sheep, etc. We always hear (and say) that you need to get your dog right at a short distance before sending the dog longer distances. So my question is do handlers just not realize that their open dogs are slicing at the top, or sniffing around, or peeing on trees, or whatever? Are these dogs working correctly at home but not at trials? I know there are pressures associated with trials that don't occur at home, so perhaps this is the case, but if so, what do you do about it? If you aren't aware of what your dog is doing at the top, do you want the set out person to let you know?

 

And in a similar vein, when do you expect the set out person to just lie his/her dog down and stay out of the way? I have another comment related to this question, but it may be for a separate topic....

 

I know this is a series of rather scattered thoughts and questions and that many of the local handlers are getting ready for another trial this weekend, but I hope I can start some discussion on this topic....

 

J.

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If you aren't aware of what your dog is doing at the top, do you want the set out person to let you know?

Oh yes please! I really appreciate feedback from the top when things didn't go as planned. Lou is big and wide, and lifts beautifully ... most of the time. When he doesn't, I try to find the person who was setting (when they've come down from the top, of course) to ask if they remember his work up top.

 

After one run, where it took forever to lift the sheep, and we only lifted 3 (had to go back and get the other 2), the set-out person told me that it was all my fault, that he was coming behind nice and deep, and just as the sheep were going to move, I whistled him down. Doh! (dog not imbued with lots of power, tends to stick, etc).

 

At the last trial, he went out and out and out and ... off the grid. Set-out told me later that he took a dump at the top then perhaps forgot where the sheep were and spent some time looking. Er, still good to know.

 

And in a similar vein, when do you expect the set out person to just lie his/her dog down and stay out of the way? I have another comment related to this question, but it may be for a separate topic....

For me, when my dog is in contact with the sheep, I figure that the set-out person's job is done. When I set (and I never am the only setter, as that would be tragic, I am usually the schmo holding one side), I figure our work is done when the sheep notice the dog behind (or beside them, for the tight ones).

 

The set is such a contentious thing, isn't it? I know I feel bad when someone gets a 'bad' set, but I think a lot of people would be surprised, as Julie mentioned, with how much their dog contributed to the 'bad set'.

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A related question--I've noticed with especially dog broke sheep (not being held with grain) that they often leave long before the dog gets even near the top. I've often wondered if that's a matter of what the set-out team is doing (or not) or if it's really the dog coming in tight even earlier than at the top.

 

I had no idea that dogs sometimes eliminate at the top--how often does that happen roughly? 5% of the time? More? Less? That's one of the things to love about dogs--even when they're working--they don't screw around with their bodily functions. A good lesson for us all, probably.

 

I like to get information from the set-out folks (though since I'm running novice still, I can usually see what the rascal is doing) or really from anyone who watches my dog's run.

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Well, with a 600 yard outrun, they might have to go! :rolleyes:

 

A related question--I've noticed with especially dog broke sheep (not being held with grain) that they often leave long before the dog gets even near the top. I've often wondered if that's a matter of what the set-out team is doing (or not) or if it's really the dog coming in tight even earlier than at the top.

 

I had no idea that dogs sometimes eliminate at the top--how often does that happen roughly? 5% of the time? More? Less? That's one of the things to love about dogs--even when they're working--they don't screw around with their bodily functions. A good lesson for us all, probably.

 

I like to get information from the set-out folks (though since I'm running novice still, I can usually see what the rascal is doing) or really from anyone who watches my dog's run.

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I've set sheep once and been the push-out a couple of times when the set-out was some distance from the set-out pen. In these cases I was impressed with what I saw at the top and at how consistent the dogs were -- of course there was variation in the way the dogs approached the sheep but I didn't see anything that I would consider grossly disturbing (or just plain gross for that matter, if we're talking bowel movements). But, I haven't worked at the top that many times and I am sure that if I did it more often I would see more train wrecks or disappointing work.

 

Fly is a great dog for setting sheep as she does not disturb them and they tend to like her -- but she's also sticky and reluctant to come in when I need her to so I try to avoid doing repetitive tasks that allow her to lie there and stare at sheep over and over again.

 

Speaking of work at the top and slicing in -- obviously I have never been able to observe my own dog at the top, but my view from the post suggests that even when Fly comes in flat at the top she "gets away" with it, partly because she does not disturb sheep, and the sheep lift well and straight. So it looks flat, but for her, it seems to be right. On the other hand, Fly's also a bit weak, so the kindness that allows her to get closer to light sheep than other dogs can means that sometimes she just plain can't lift tough sheep at all. Thus far the range ewes have been so very unintimidated by her that it's caused us problems in all the usual places: lift, drive in the direction the sheep really don't want to go in, pen.

 

I think if a dog has weaknesses or quirks at the top they aren't limited to the top and reflect something systematic about the dog. In Fly's case this is certainly true.

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I like as much feedback as I can get.

 

 

In my case Starr and I were consistently over running at the top and missing the lift and someone pointed out that maybe she just wasn't hearing me. She is very happy now that I am trying to use whistles, and it's mostly fixed that problem.

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Great thread, Julie! I'll post a lengthy response later when I come back in from working dogs, but I agree, from doing setout (which I do a fair amount of), we see all sorts of things going on up there and I often wonder how much the handlers are aware of...

A

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But, I haven't worked at the top that many times and I am sure that if I did it more often I would see more train wrecks or disappointing work.

 

I don't set out a lot, but often enough. I don't usually (almost never really) see train wrecks, but disappointing work is probably fairly accurate. At least I'm seeing things I don't expect to see given the caliber of the dogs.

 

Speaking of work at the top and slicing in -- obviously I have never been able to observe my own dog at the top, but my view from the post suggests that even when Fly comes in flat at the top she "gets away" with it, partly because she does not disturb sheep, and the sheep lift well and straight. So it looks flat, but for her, it seems to be right.

 

And I guess maybe this is what my question is sort of getting at. If it seems to be right because a dog can "get away with it," how does the judge evaluate it? We also hear how the dog shouldn't slice, and if the judge sees it, usually you'll often lose points (off the outrun if not the lift) for it, regardless of what the sheep do. Jill was (is) a tight outrunner who rarely disturbed her sheep, and yet I could pretty much guarantee I'd never get better than an 18 point outrun because of the tightness, even if the sheep never moved and the lift was straight. So are we really judging dogs based on what the sheep do or also on what the dog does? Quite a few of the dogs at Seclusival came in from the side, and they weren't slicing at speed, they had slowed for the lift but came in from the side (I'm not talking about a little bit of overflanking or underflanking to compensate for draws to the setout pens, but coming in closer to 3 or 9 if you picture the sheep as the clock face). It's possible that the presence of me and my dog prevented the sheep from reacting more than they did and I guess there's no solution to that. When the sheep lifted sideways for one handler, she looked at the judge as if to complain that I wasn't holding the sheep properly and yet her dog was coming straight in from the opposite side and pushed the sheep off in the wrong direction. I spoke to the judge afterward and she said she saw that the dog was there and was wrong and basically indicated that to this particular handler. And if we say that the dog should come in deep behind the sheep to be correct and yet the slicing dog can lift straight and get full points, then are we actually encouraging slicing dogs, or at least not discouraging them? Maybe these are just stupid questions, but after setting two trials recently, I just started to wonder....

 

On another note, I have a complaint/plea. I think handlers forget that the setout person and dog aren't there to hold the sheep indefinitely. We all want our sheep settled before we send our dog, but what folks seem to forget is that the longer the sheep are out there doesn't necessarily mean they are going to become more settled. In fact it can result in them becoming *less* settled. I know some handlers wait to go to the post because they don't want their dogs to watch the sheep being exhausted, but especially if the exhaust is behind the line of travel out to the sheep, is it really necessary to wait for the field to be completely clear of sheep? Often trials are very full and time is of the essence and the set out folks are expected to get the sheep out on the field as quickly as possible. And then we wait, and wait, and wait some more for the handler to finally head out to the post, chat with the judge, fiddle around setting the dog up just so, etc. Sometimes this is happening in 95-degree weather (or 30-degree weather); other times it's happening with sheep that are extremely difficult to hold. It's my feeling that the dog (especially a trialwise dog) should recognize that if I walk to the post and am facing in a particular direction when I send it that it shouldn't turn around and go backward to the exhaust to pick up sheep (which are no longer visible anyway). So do handlers really need to wait for the field to completely clear? And even if we accept that they should wait, once the field is cleared, shouldn't they make an effort to get to the post as promptly as possible? Why is it that some handlers take so long to get to the post? Is there any way to impress upon them that they may not be doing themselves any favors by dawdling?

 

J.

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On another note, I have a complaint/plea. I think handlers forget that the setout person and dog aren't there to hold the sheep indefinitely... So do handlers really need to wait for the field to completely clear? And even if we accept that they should wait, once the field is cleared, shouldn't they make an effort to get to the post as promptly as possible? Why is it that some handlers take so long to get to the post? Is there any way to impress upon them that they may not be doing themselves any favors by dawdling?

 

Amen! I sure don't like standing stock still, holding my side, and, as the sheep are getting more restless, and my knee is locking, glancing downfield and seeing the handler moseying out to the post in no great hurry. In fact, when I run, I like to be at or near the post as soon as possible because a) I want my dog to see the sheep going to set-out, and b ) I think it's polite to be ready. Also agree that so long as I am squared to the sheep that I want, that should be the set that my dog should get.

 

At one trial, the on-deck team waited behind the judge's truck while the previous dog was running. This saved a lot of time. At another trial this year, the 'wrangler' would not let you into the field (Open, mind you) until the previous set was exhausted. I think this cost a lot of time, and some dogs still went to exhaust. Whaddya gonna do.

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I have probably spent more hours at the top end of sheepdog trials than the bottom end, and I can tell you that handlers who try to play games with the set out are never doing themselves favors. There was one trial where my sheep were being heavy, and it was a long outrun. Lots of weak dogs were having a hard time shifting them, so the game was to send your dog as soon as there was any movement at the top so that the sheep would never have a chance to actually stop and put their heads down to graze.

 

There was one handler who sent her dog when just three of the five sheep were on the field. We hustled to get the other two turned around and get the whole packet out to the set out, which was some 100 yards from the holding pen. As anyone who has handled sheep will tell you, hustling sheep is generally not the best plan. The group split, and by the time we got them back together, the dog was behind us and coming on for the lift. You guessed it, the group split again, but since the dog was in position to take control of the sheep, we backed off. Two sheep went back to the holding pen, and the other three stayed put and walked the dog back a good 50 yards.

 

The handler turned around and raised her arms to the judge, as if to ask for a re-run, which she did not get.

 

The second day we decided to put sheep out when the handler was at the pen. The sheep settled much nicer that way, and usually by the time the next handler got to the post, all the set-out person and dog had to do was stand in place. Most trials don't have big enough fields to get away with that, but if they do, that's the way to do it in my opinion.

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The second day we decided to put sheep out when the handler was at the pen. The sheep settled much nicer that way, and usually by the time the next handler got to the post, all the set-out person and dog had to do was stand in place. Most trials don't have big enough fields to get away with that, but if they do, that's the way to do it in my opinion.

I would have liked to have done this as well, but when I tried it, the sheep could see their buddies down the field as they were being exhausted and it became a fight for me and my dog to hold them on the top, so we got them out of the set out pen as soon as the handler either completed the shed or time was called but didn't actually walk them to the set out until the sheep downfield were exhausted.

 

It seems I've had the opposite problem from you, though. Generally it seems we have sheep that don't really want to settle, or at least not for very long (lack of grass to tempt them could be part of the problem--what sheep wants to just stand around looking at its buddies or at me and my dog?), and so having them at the set out spot for any length of time means sheep getting more antsy instead of more settled. This was especially true this week, as the yearlings really wanted to be either back at the set out pens or down the field, but NOT standing at the set out with the other two sheep....

 

J.

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A couple of weeks ago, at the Red Creek trial, I had an opportunity to watch from the set out position. I learned alot from just watching from that perspective. All the trials I have seen, the training I have done, never gave me that point of observation. In my limited experience and probly because of it, I highly recommend anyone starting out and getting to the point of doing long distance work, ie no longer in pens but in the actual fields, watch from the set out place if they can. All the things my trainer had told me some how became clearer. I saw good dogs and knew WHY they were good dogs, and I saw two train wrecks, and knew WHY the wreck happened. It was an education that I hope will transfer over to helping me get Jackson ready for novice.

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A related question--I've noticed with especially dog broke sheep (not being held with grain) that they often leave long before the dog gets even near the top. I've often wondered if that's a matter of what the set-out team is doing (or not) or if it's really the dog coming in tight even earlier than at the top.

 

 

Let's call these trial-wise sheep. Setting trial-wise sheep is a very difficult task. They often become very unsettled once they see the dog and handler come onto the field. Some of these will even attempt to pull the set-out team out of position by running one way to clear a path in the other direction. The set-out team's job is to keep the sheep in position as long as possibly without interfering with the run. The latter is the hardest part. Sometimes the trial manager or the judge will dictate when the set-out team's job is done (i.e. when the dog is at 3 or 9 o'clock), sometimes it is left to the set-out team's judgment. When trial-wise sheep attempt to make a break for it the set-out team could attempt to stop them. This is the choice when the dog is in the beginning of the outrun; however, the farther along the outrun the dog gets the risk of having the set-out dog in the way of the lift/fetch increases. Having two dogs actively working against one another on the same sheep (one lifting/fetching and one blocking this movement) is very bad for the run. Remember that the lift is where the tone of the run is set. Timing the release of trial-wise sheep and split-second decisions on when to react to escape attempts and when to let them go greatly impact the run. Renee and I have set many types of sheep from very trial-wise to barely dog broke. Setting on the novice field at the Bluegrass was quite an education; the first two days we had profession trial sheep and the second two days we had the once run Texas sheep. Both groups had their challenges. The first group require constant attention to the mood of the sheep (wathcing for escape thoughts) and attention to where the dog was (often to our backs). The Texas sheep were a challenge to move off the set-out pen (if you put the dog on them too soon they would turn and fight) once out in the field they would easily stand still.

 

However, as a trialer I prefer sheep held without grain over the very artificial lift created with sheep gorging on grain, even when the sheep are very trial-wise. I do understand why grain is used and that it can be very neccessary for certain sheep.

 

Mark

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Imagine you're holding sheep, you on one side and your dog on the other (not on the fetch line). The dog is sent to your side of the sheep. You're standing there watching your sheep and they start to get nervous and then start to move. A decision must be made quickly; the faster the sheep dart the faster you must decide.

 

Here's what I'm thinking.

 

Where's the dog?

Is the dog causing them to move?

If I move my dog to stop their movement will I interfere with the run (put my dog in the way)?

If I don't stop them from moving will they get to far ahead of the dog to be fair for this team?

 

Don't forget to take into account your dog's strengths and weaknesses in this given situation and how they may impact the sheep.

 

Mark

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This is a concern for me. Some of you know that my depth perception isn't all that great (OK, it's HORRIBLE), and my ability to discern things at a distance is... well... compromised. So YES, I'd want someone to let me know if my dog were acting a fool at the top. Chances are, I won't be able to see it from the post. I'm not sure at this point what I expect from the setout person, but if my dog unsettles the sheep then he should clean up his own mess. And I do agree that the dogs should be penalized for slicing in, even if the sheep lift straight.

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Here's what I'm thinking.

 

Where's the dog?

Is the dog causing them to move?

If I move my dog to stop their movement will I interfere with the run (put my dog in the way)?

If I don't stop them from moving will they get to far ahead of the dog to be fair for this team?

Mark

 

I would add to Mark's list the belief that the judge is aware of how the sheep are behaving that day and if they do leave early or other problems occur at the top, then the judge will take that into account when judging that particular run. Mark's right that you're up there making split-second decisions. The absolute last thing you want to do at the set out is interfere with someone's run. By the same token, you don't want to give someone's dog an unfair "advantage" by covering for the dog's bad work at the top. I usually note that the handler has sent his/her dog and then allow a reasonable amount of time for the dog to get to the top. If the sheep get antsy during that time, I will do my best to hold them. If, however, the dog is coming in behind the sheep and they start to bolt, then I have to decide if sending my dog to head the sheep (or jumping in front of them myself) will cause more harm than good. If the dog comes in flat or short, then I pretty much figure the sheep are the dog's at that point. The worst is dogs who come up the middle, which happened more than once at this recent trial (they started the outrun normally, then crossed and turned toward the sheep at a point directly *below* the sheep). Of course this means the sheep will likely bolt back to the set out, but at that point again I don't feel it's my place to stop them--the dog was dead wrong.... In general I try to operate on a "less is more" approach. Keeping the sheep settled is important, and the more the set out person or set out dog move and "work" the sheep, the more agitated they will be when the competing dog gets there. That's why I don't like a post or other obvious marker at the set out. Some handlers won't send their dogs unless the sheep are right up against that marker, when, realistically, settled sheep, even if they are off the marker by a yard or two, should be the important consideration. The judge can also see where the sheep are standing and should judge the fetch from where the sheep were *actually* set, not where they were *supposed* to be set. But some handlers don't get that.

 

J.

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... The sheep were not easy to hold, although inexplicably they would sometimes stay put even for dogs who were coming in "wrong." ...

 

 

I've always wondered about this phenomenon.

 

Sometimes I tell myself that dogs with a bit more eye can mitigate sloppy work at the top (and elsewhere).

The looser eyed dogs rarely get away with it. But, of course, with dog broke sheep weird things

can happen.

 

charlie

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On doing setout: Normally, we have those range ewes for which the west is so famous, so, at least the first day, they have no clue what they are about to face (some little black and white dog to escort them around the field) when positioned at the setout spot. Occasionally they have me set on hay, but most often not. Due to numbers of entries (Ok, and the fact that I HATE to waste time and burn daylight), we almost always start to bring the next set out as the prior group is at the pen, so that as the one group is being exhausted, the new group is being put into position. So, YES, handlers who diddle around getting to the post are a PIA! Even if there is something for the sheep to nibble as they wait, these are range ewes, and so holding them in the "perfect spot" for a long time can be quite dicey. It's probably a good thing that handlers can't hear me, because I'm up there talking to myself, "send your f*ing dog!" However, just as much of a PIA is what Bill describes--the handler who, due to a dog that s/he knows will have a hard time lifting the sheep, sends the dog while I am still moving my dog around to position the sheep. When I see the dog on course, my dog and I freeze--they have "bought" the sheep wherever they are at that time (unless they are actively heading back to the setout pen).

 

How long (or hard) to hold? What I have found that works for me is to get the sheep into position, with my dog in whatever position it takes to hold them there. If possible, that is off to one side, but sometimes, it has to be directly in the fetch line. We wait as the dog approaches; at some point (usually just as the dog is nearing the top of the outrun, be it flat or deep), the sheep will pick up their heads to see and watch the oncoming dog approach. That is the moment to call my dog off to the side. This is the point at which control of the packet of sheep has clearly changed hands from my dog to the incoming dog. My #1 dog has done this so much over the years that she does not need me to tell her when to call herself off--she sees the right moment and slips away very quietly off to the side. We stay well off to the side until the dog and sheep are clearly headed down field. If, as Mark asks, the sheep get nervous and think about moving before the approaching dog is in a position to have control, I will either step in myself or flank the dog to deter them from moving. Just a small movement from me or my dog usually convinces them to settle again.

 

Last year I had a judge tell me that once the handler had sent their dog, to back out of the way, both me and dog, and move back to the setout pen. Big mistake! The sheep wanted very much to go back to their friends, so almost no one got their sheep. And I know the handlers were wondering what in the hell I was doing up there not holding the sheep as I normally do!

 

If your setout person and dog are good, then they know how to get every group set in the same spot, calmly and quietly, and how to get their dog out of there quietly, too. Micromanaging is not cool.

 

In addition to a lot of dogs coming in flat, I see a fair number of dogs I think have been screwed down too tightly--they have been hammered on so much to lie down at the top (so they don't crash in or grip), that they act almost afraid to lift the sheep. Or maybe they are just inherently sticky. They lie there and have to be coaxed to walk on in. They sniff around and eat sheep poop, they wander off and pee on things, they come over to my dog to visit (which almost always gets them a snipe on the nose because she's working, dammit), they take a tentative step or two in, then flank off the pressure, they just wing and wang back and forth off the pressure. Lots of avoidance stuff going on. So I'm never sure if the dog is just perhaps intimidated by the stock (in my crude terminology, is just a weak-ass dog), or has had too much pressure from the handler during training at the top. Anyway, the result is less than ideal. There's nothing nicer than to see a nicely shaped outrun end in a dog who walks in smoothly and confidently and just eases those sheep on down the field. No muss, no fuss, just "let's go, ladies."

 

If I know the handler at all well, I generally try to tell him or her what the dog did up top if it was strange or unusual. I don't always remember, nor am I always aware whose dog it is (hard to see those handlers at 600+ yards!), but if I know who it is and remember, I try to let them know. I think most handlers would like to know. I also tell the ones whose dog did a great job how nice it was to see that, too!

 

End of rant, time to go out and work dogs,

A

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I've always wondered about this phenomenon.

 

Sometimes I tell myself that dogs with a bit more eye can mitigate sloppy work at the top (and elsewhere).

The looser eyed dogs rarely get away with it. But, of course, with dog broke sheep weird things

can happen.

 

charlie

Isn't that the truth? Although I think the dog-broke sheep are the ones Mark refers to as trial-wise, and they're the ones who are hard to hold because they really just want to bolt down the field the second they see the dog. The sheep at this recent trial could be described at best as lightly broke, since only the ewes had ever really been worked by dogs, and that was more than a year ago. The yearlings (they were some wild things) and lambs were essentially undogged. Sometimes I think they just stood there in *disbelief* when the dogs were wrong. :rolleyes:

 

J.

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There's nothing nicer than to see a nicely shaped outrun end in a dog who walks in smoothly and confidently and just eases those sheep on down the field. No muss, no fuss, just "let's go, ladies."

 

If I know the handler at all well, I generally try to tell him or her what the dog did up top if it was strange or unusual. I don't always remember, nor am I always aware whose dog it is (hard to see those handlers at 600+ yards!), but if I know who it is and remember, I try to let them know. I think most handlers would like to know. I also tell the ones whose dog did a great job how nice it was to see that, too!

Yep, I generally do try to tell the handlers whose dogs I think were particularly nice at the top (there's usually not a lot of them)--if I recognize the dog and know who the handler is. Often by the end of the day though, I can't remember what dog did what, unless it was something particularly remarkable--either good or bad.

 

At Edgeworth, Tommy Wilson actually sent word down from the top about one dog whom he thought was particularly nice in his work there. I'm sure the handler was happy to hear the praise of the good work!

 

J.

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The lift is shaping up to be most complicated work a dog can do right (in the eyes of the handler/trainer/set out). If you work on dog broke sheep, there isn't much lift- unless the set out person keeps them set-- if you work on irritable range ewes, or just sheep with a recalcitrant attitude, that same dog who you trained to NOT push in, is met with a WHOLE 'nother set of circumstances, and that dog is alone out there, not really knowing what to do- I mean, he has been trained NOT to push. Man, I feel for these dogs- am I that bad to mine? I think I will do what I have been doing- keep my mouth shut, and let her work, lest she be considered a lily livered wuss....

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Julie,

There's something to be said for letting a dog learn to read sheep and then learn how to handle them appropriately. A dog that knows how to read its sheep and react appropriately to the sheep at hand shouldn't have many problems dealing with whatever it finds at the top. So this may indeed be a case where less is more and micromanaging can actually do more damage than good, IMO. (Of course, it's also often a longer-term process; that is, it will take longer to let the dog learn to read and react appropriately than just to screw the dog down and micromanage. If you're willing to take more time, you can let the dog be natural and just add the micromanaging stuff later.)

 

J.

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Okay, then, those of you who are open handlers--at what age would you expect a naturally tight-running dog to understand that he has to stay outside the bubble to achieve a proper lift? How do you encourage that?

 

Taz is a tight-running dog, and as a novice I've made a bazillion mistakes in training him. This is the most serious flaw he has right now, and he often moves the sheep before he can get behind them. (Admittedly, we mostly work dog-broke sheep.) I asked about age because I am often told not to worry too much about it because Taz is still relatively young, that he needs time to figure it all out and find his own sheep-dependent sweet spot. I understand that it will take him longer than another dog, due to my inexperience in training/handling him, but is it a philosophical decision whether to just let a young dog figure it out in time or would folks be more inclined to step in and concentrate on this?

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Laura,

I've got my first tighter running dogs coming along now, and I have been leaving them alone. I have a wide running dog and all the problems that go with that, so the last thing I want to do with the youngsters is *create* wide dogs (the one I have is naturally wide).

 

Interestingly, the youngster that is nearly two sometimes still runs tight, but sometimes does beautiful outruns. I haven't done anything to widen her out but let her work. So she seems to be proving the theory that they will widen. That said, she also was never really tight at the top, as she does kick out at the top if running out tight. The younger pups have had times when they were tighter behind than I'd like, and we did some exercises on flanking where we made sure that their first step off for the flank was to the side rather than forward (using body and voice pressure). This is done at hand, not at a distance (i.e., the top of an outrun). If you can correct the flank at hand, then it should be correct for the top of the outrun as well. But in general, I am taking the philosophy of letting it be and seeing if they improve as they mature (with the corrections described here).

 

The point Mark is making is a good one. If you are working with sheep that always leave before the dog can get around them properly, then your sheep are reinforcing the problem for your dog (because the dog is going to slice in for fear of losing the sheep, which are running away). If that's the case, it might be helpful to have someone hold the sheep so they can't leave before the dog gets there. Doing this in conjunction with working on squaring the flanks at hand would probably help.

 

J.

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