RUINED???

[LVShep]

First let me give ya'll the story here..

 

I have a 6 month old red and white male, and he is currently running the yard with our 3 yo. Lab and 8 yo. Dauschaund. When we first got him we were also GIVEN his half brother ( mostly white - breeder said he has a hard time selling them ). Both of them were from working stock and had been out back with me when I fed our GOATS. They seemed to have the natural aggression, and smarts. I gave the white one to a buddy of mine, and he is coming along real good. Here's what I'm getting at...

 

About 5 weeks ago, Shep ( the red and white one ) was in the back with me, and one of our nannies, that had a 3 week old set of twins, litteraly buried him in the ground. Now he wants nothing to do with leaving the yard at all and when he notices the goats he hauls tail and hides. I know he's young and should HOPEFULLY grow out of it!!! I need him for a track dog by the end of the year. Do ya'll think he is ruined or is there something I can do to re-build his conifidence.

 

Thanks

[Sue R]

You did, in my opinion, make a very big mistake taking a youngster out with mothers and babies. That was just asking for trouble of the kind that you describe. As for "fixing" it, you'll have to get advice from much better folks than me.

 

Don't get me started on "track dogs" if what you are talking about is what I think it is - dogs that run lambs to get them to bulk up on muscle for the show ring. What a misuse of a dog, treatment of stock that's tantamount to abuse, and foolishness and deception in the pursuit of ribbons and placings.

 

All that said, welcome to the boards as they are a fine place to learn.

[kelpiegirl]

All I can say is that it is important for young dog's experiences on sheep/other stock to be confidence building, not busting. So, that may mean travelling to where there are broke stock, but it is important. My dog got her confidence dented, and thankfully, she has recovered, but it was a lesson I will never forget. So, put the dog up when working with animals you believe may give the dog trouble. If the dog does get nailed- it may take months for this confidence to return- and it has to be rebuilt- it won't happen over night. If you push, the dog will quit.

Julie

[LVShep]

KELPIEGIRL ( Julie ) --Thank you!! It is good to see a helpful reply..

 

 

TO SUE R:

 

Your opinion, as to the use of my BC, is not what I'm looking for. I'm sure there are people on here that also can't see the point in using a BC as an AGILITY dog ( just as an example ) or whatever else people have their BCs for. A person should keep their opinions to themselves, if they don't know the facts!!

 

I would rather run a goat with a dog for 2 laps, 3 times a week ( for toning not bulking ) than pump it up with an assortment of "enhancers" or "supplements". That is deception for a ribbon!!

 

As to your comment about "ABUSE OF STOCK", as is slightly being accused by your post, then maybe you should ask who here has ever used a "HOTSHOT" to "TRAIN" any type of animal, or tied an animal to a bumper to " take it for a run " or held feed or water for any amount of time . I raised animals for show in 4H and in FFA in my younger years and had, and still have (my sons animals), the upmost caring for what happens to them in our care and after they are shown. DOGS run, GOATS run away!!! That's how it is and how it always should be.

 

I could have just got a BC for a PET and keep him locked up in a kennel until it's time for him to to do his "thing", but I chose to get him to work and let him enjoy being a dog. To not let him run and work is a MISUSE and ABUSE...

 

I grew up with BCs and wanted another one, due their intelligence and loving, as I wanted my kids to experiance it. I hope you see where I'm coming from.

[stockdogranch]

I'll agree with Sue on this point:

 

You did, in my opinion, make a very big mistake taking a youngster out with mothers and babies. That was just asking for trouble of the kind that you describe. As for "fixing" it, you'll have to get advice from much better folks than me.

 

I'll stay out of the other part of the discussion, and merely try to respond to your original question: it depends...mostly depends on what the pup's made of. Some recover from this sort of thing, but it takes a very long time. Others recover very quickly. Other never do quite get over it. Sure, part of that has to do with how you handle things from here on, but mostly, it has to do with the pup's make up, temperament, or, as my dad used to call it, "intestinal fortitude."

 

Anna

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Anna

I like that term I guess the phrase "school of hard knocks" would be another one...

Julie

 

I'll agree with Sue on this point:

I'll stay out of the other part of the discussion, and merely try to respond to your original question: it depends...mostly depends on what the pup's made of. Some recover from this sort of thing, but it takes a very long time. Others recover very quickly. Other never do quite get over it. Sure, part of that has to do with how you handle things from here on, but mostly, it has to do with the pup's make up, temperament, or, as my dad used to call it, "intestinal fortitude."

 

Anna

[juliepoudrier]

It's hard to say whether your youngster is ruined or not. Getting ground into the dirt, even for an experienced dog, is sigularly unpleasant and now you know in hindsight that he should never have been let in with mamas with babies, since they are the absolute toughest things for any dog to handle, let alone an untrained youngster. I would say that in time and with a lot of patient work on your part, his confidence can be restored, though he may never be a dog who will work mamas with babies. There's really no way, for anyone to tell that, though, only time and training will let you know. If I were you I would make a good effort to find some dog broke stock (sheep or goats) and a good trainer/mentor to work with him until his confidence has been built back up before ever reintroducing him to your goats. That said, once you've got him going again on other (i.e., dogbroke) stock, you might be able to use him fairly soon to do what you need to do (since I assume you'd be working youngsters and not worldwise adults), but in truth no one is going to be able to tell you what the outcome will be for this dog just based on the facts you've presented here. A lot depends on your dog and what approach you take to his training from here. I'm sorry you had such an unfortunate beginning with him.

 

Oh, and if you post to boards and mailing lists, you really do have to expect that you'll be getting people's opnions since that's really what you ask for when you post. You may not like all of those opinions, but that's just the nature of Internet communication. Following is my opinion in response to a comment you posted above. You probably won't like it, and so may want to skip it, but I'm posting it anyway as others do read these boards and might be interested in my philosophies, especially since you have posted what amounts to an accusation of stockpeople which may not be accurate, at least not for some of us.

 

then maybe you should ask who here has ever used a "HOTSHOT" to "TRAIN" any type of animal, or tied an animal to a bumper to " take it for a run " or held feed or water for any amount of time .

Um, well I do raise sheep and have worked with my neighbor's nondogbroke cattle, and I have to say I have done none of these things. In fact, I was mortified when I was asked to set sheep at a trial and was shown a hotshot that I could use to move the sheep through the set out pens. I said "no, thank you" to the device as I think it stresses the animals more than anything else, and at least with sheep, you should be able to move them easily without even touching them. (Well, and outside of setting sheep for a trial situation, I depend on my dogs to move the livestock in chutes or anywhere else and not on other devices.) The fortunate thing for me is that since I'm raising rare breeds of sheep, I can even show and not have to buy into all the "tricks of the trade" to try and win, thank goodness. Just my opinion of course.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I am sorry if I offended your sensitivities and jumped to a conclusion that may not be applicable to you, but the description of "track dog" that is widely viewed on the internet by a very well-known "stockman" involves the use of the hot shot to teach the sheep to get booking it when the dog approaches. Don't stand, don't stop, don't hesitate, just get running, and so it goes.

 

My personal feelings about running stock for "toning" or "bulking" or whatever, and then showing that stock as demonstrative of an optimal food production animal is just like looking at a super-model or personally-trained actor/actress, and thinking they are representative of the best genetics of the human race. Obviously, show animals are not intended to demonstrate the attributes of superior genetics but rather than superior conditioning/toning/showmanship.

 

As to your comment about "ABUSE OF STOCK", as is slightly being accused by your post, then maybe you should ask who here has ever used a "HOTSHOT" to "TRAIN" any type of animal, or tied an animal to a bumper to " take it for a run " or held feed or water for any amount of time .

 

Why should I go and ask who has done any of these things? These are all wrong, bad stockmanship, and despicable. My comment was with reference to my personal perception of track dogs as I have read about them by those who train and use them. If it doesn't apply to you and what you do, good.

 

All that said, I do hope you are able to work with your dog so he can get over his fears. I have a fearful dog although his is a different situation. Best wishes in getting things worked out well for him and you.

[Sue R]

After a night's sleep and some time to mull it over, I'd like to apologize for jumping to conclusions about your use of a track dog. Not that I condone the concept, and I don't, but that I was basing my opinion on the approach many people take in training this particular "exercise"

 

Heavily edited for brevity, here is what I was talking about:

 

To train your animals to associate the noise and the pain, you can do one of two things. Put them on a halter and the dog on a lead. Holding the animal’s head up(When a lamb or kid fights, he puts his head down. This way he is defenseless.), encourage the dog to be aggressive. As the dog makes a move towards the animal, ring the bell and hit the animal with a hotshot or let the dog take a nip at them. Immediately pull the dog back and stop the bell. Wait 20 or 30 seconds and then do it again. The animal should be ‘bug-eyed’....animals in a small area. Put the bell on the dog’s collar and turn him loose. He’ll run through, grab, and scare them... If he can convince the animals to be afraid of him in this larger area, then he won't have to on the track... next put the animals on the track and you get on the inside with the dog on a lead beside you. Have a hotshot in your hand. Approach the tail of the animals. If they don’t take off running, hit them with the hotshot. Now all the animal knows is that when he hears the bell he either gets bit or stung with the hotshot and they’ll want to run to get away from it.

 

In terms of what people "approve of" on this board, you'll find few that disapprove of the "use" of a Border Collie for agility or other dog activities, in particular when the dog is less interested in stock or less talented on stock. This board is strongly in favor (and have you read the "Read This First" section?) of good stockmanship, humane training, Border Collie rescue, intelligent breeding of work-proven Border Collies (work being defined as stockwork), and a host of responsible approaches to Border Collie ownership.

 

I doubt that you'll find many, if any, here who would condone a "HOTSHOT to "TRAIN" any type of animal, or tie an animal to a bumper to 'take it for a run' or hold feed or water for any amount of time" for any animals. If you think this board is made up of people who would do that or what I have quoted above, I believe you have the wrong impression of the board membership as a whole.

 

So, sorry to get off on the wrong foot. I'm not apologizing for my opinions but rather for being somewhat blunt (rude?) in my stating of them. I hope you stay on the board, ask your questions, consider the replies, and learn (and contribute, too).

[Eileen Stein]

To train your animals to associate the noise and the pain, you can do one of two things. Put them on a halter and the dog on a lead. Holding the animal’s head up(When a lamb or kid fights, he puts his head down. This way he is defenseless.), encourage the dog to be aggressive. As the dog makes a move towards the animal, ring the bell and hit the animal with a hotshot or let the dog take a nip at them. Immediately pull the dog back and stop the bell. Wait 20 or 30 seconds and then do it again. The animal should be ‘bug-eyed’....animals in a small area. Put the bell on the dog’s collar and turn him loose. He’ll run through, grab, and scare them... If he can convince the animals to be afraid of him in this larger area, then he won't have to on the track... next put the animals on the track and you get on the inside with the dog on a lead beside you. Have a hotshot in your hand. Approach the tail of the animals. If they don’t take off running, hit them with the hotshot. Now all the animal knows is that when he hears the bell he either gets bit or stung with the hotshot and they’ll want to run to get away from it.

 

Yuck!! Why would anyone want to do that? It seems like a surefire way of making it impossible for your dog to achieve calm, effective control of the stock in any future situation. And you would give up that capability just to mislead a judge about the muscling on your show animals? Doesn't seem worth it to me.

[juliepoudrier]

Eileen,

This is just another sad example of the lengths to which people will go to win in the show ring. The judge has no way of knowing how the muscles got there after all. And it takes way too long to actually use the genetics of your flock to create a fine meat animal over time. In my original post I edited out a comment I made about just what we're teaching our youngsters in the FHA and 4-H if this is what they learn of animal husbandry. Of course what people do for the sake of the show ring has nothing to do with the real world of production sheep (and the kids get these superinflated prices for the animals--good for the pockets, but not good for teaching them anything about the reality of farming). There's a theme here of what the show ring does to people's minds and to the poor animals who end up in the ring--whether they be dogs, horses, sheep, cattle, or what-have-you--get that show mindset and the actual welfare of the individual animal seems to go right out the door.

 

Obviously, show animals are not intended to demonstrate the attributes of superior genetics but rather than superior conditioning/toning/showmanship.

 

Well, we know that, but if you look at the ads of all the breeders who are creating and showing these sheep, they would certainly have you believe it's genetics. Why else would anyone want to buy their champion bloodlines? (That's just a rhetorical question.)

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I don't know if the dog is ruined or not, but since all 99% of track dogs I've seen do is chase, you can probably get him to do that. He's going to have a hard time facing up to stock after that pounding on a young mind - but that's not what a track dog has to do.

 

I've done FFA, 4H, etc, and I can tell you that I have never seen greater abuse of animals than what is encouraged in those systems by the adults who should know better. Track training is *lying*, falsely forcing conditioning to make an animal look as if he has greater tone and bulk than he does. It creates a market for breeding stock from those animals that win with this methods...and since the false view of what is "normal" for that stock doesn't exactly breed true, the shenanigans continue.

 

Want to tone up a goat? Turn him out in the pasture, let him eat grass and romp around like nature intended. If he looks great and produces well, keep offspring, then select the best from the best. Train the Border Collie and use him to manage said goats. It's nice...very pleasent...and quite enjoyable for all. Teach you kids about real animal husbandry, not racetracks for goats and letting puppies get in over their heads and bashed out.

 

I didn't show sheep for long...and I remember my Mother's opinion of my "instructor" who said it was "done" to give the sheep a diuretic (Lasix to make them loose water weight) and starve them for food and water at the same time - in 24 hours you had a "toned" look for the ring.

 

She said...and I quote, "we don't treat animals like that" - and that ewe got water and hay both. She grew up with a cat, and she knew better....what's wrong with these people? What in heavens name are we teaching children now...

[Bill Fosher]

I lurk (and occasionally break cover) on a forum that is all about showing sheep. As county fairs approach every year there's a spate of posts with questions about how to take 15 lbs off a lamb in three weeks so it will be in the "right" class or similar nonsense.

 

Show shake recipes that include some pretty dubious ingredients, complaints about rules that require lambs to have a tail that can be deflected with a pencil, questions about how to "hold" a lamb at a particular weight for months, etc. are all common fare.

 

I've thought long and hard about what the show ring (and I won't condemn 4H or FFA, because competitive showing is only a small part of the programs) teaches the kids. From my perspective, it teaches them that it's okay to lose sight of the animal's basic needs and intended purpose if it gets you a ribbon. Ribbons=success. It's okay to intentionally stunt the growth of a young animal to get it into more fairs in the classes where it will be competitive. They aren't thinking about the fact that they are growing a food animal when they talk about how to make a lamb into a winner.

 

The OP's response to the legitimate, if poorly phrased, concerns about stock abuse by track dogs, gives some insight into what's considered normal in the show world. Animals are trained using hot shocks. They are chased around by track dogs. They are kept off feed and water for days on end. These things are considered normal and acceptable -- well within the pale. Where people get uncomfortable in the show ring is when jocks start doing things like shoving ice cubes up their lambs' rectums, feeding Paylean, or using steroids to gain advantage. And by and large, the attitudes are not ones of outrage for the abuse of the animals that these practices represent, but outrage that these cheaters aren't caught and punished -- that the playing field isn't level.

 

If the premium auctions that fund these fairs, where equipment dealerships and local banks pay thousands for a market lamb to "support the kids," were ended, the whole show business would collapse under its own weight. The entire system is founded on artifice, and the people who are benefiting from those sales at the county fair are not the kids who raised the animals, but the show jocks who sold them the lambs for $1,000 plus at weaning.

 

I've said it before in other contexts, but it's just as true here: money corrupts.

[Zoe]

I am going to open my big mouth again to say that this thread is shocking and informative. And I am priveleged to be a member of these boards. I wish everyone would read it. This stuff should be discussed in schools everywhere. I'm done. ( And I'll probably wish I hadn't posted tomorrow, as usual ! )

[bcnewe2]

[ Where people get uncomfortable in the show ring is when jocks start doing things like shoving ice cubes up their lambs' rectums/quote]

 

Ok so I've heard allot of things people do to increase the show value of lambs but what pray tell does this do?

 

Man....just when you think you've heard about all the horrid crap that's out there someone starts talking about icecubes up the bum....

What next?

 

 

Kristen

[grenzehund]

Alarming (for a sheep novice, more so for you all).

 

I read on another forum (Bill's?) that the sheep seen at shows are not what they could/used to be (to be polite). I assume that's partly a function of these lovely methods.

 

Interesting parallel between the fates of "useful sheep" and "working stockdogs"...

 

sg

[IronHorse]

Anyone that is so naive or impatient that they would put a 6 month old pup onto nanny goats with kids is imo not acting responsibly and I would be more then happy to correct that persons behavior with a HOTSHOT.

If this is how you train and condition your livestock then my best suggestion to you would be to find your pup a better home.

[Sue R]

...the legitimate, if poorly phrased, concerns about stock abuse by track dogs...

 

Bill - I'm not sure how my concerns were poorly phrased but I sure know that your writing skills have eloquently addressed many topics, including the plight of show animals (of all types, actually) that endure poor husbandry and abuse in the pursuit of "success" in the show ring. As has been expressed, what are we teaching our children?

[ShoresDog]

Thank you Bill and Sue for sharing this information. I'm with Zoe -- it's shocking and informative. Why in the world does anyone think that 4H or FFA kids, or the lambs, or anyone, is getting anything of any value whatsoever out of it?

[Bill Fosher]

My understanding of the reasoning behind giving the lambs the sensation of cold in their rectum (supposedly ben-gay is also used for this purpose) is to get the muscles to contract, giving them better definition and a superior "look." It's called "bracing."

 

Now, what show judge couldn't smell ben-gay on a lamb at a dozen paces is beyond me.

 

Sue, I personally didn't think your concerns were poorly phrased, but obviously the OP did.

 

Take a look at sheep equipment web sites or catalogs, and it's only a matter of time before you see a lamb walker or chariot. They work the same way. You restrain the lambs' heads. Their front feet are up on a platform, and their hind legs are on the ground. You then move the contraption with an ATV or some are circular and self propelled. Think of an old-timey mule-driven mill, but instead of the animal providing the power, a motor forces the animals to walk. This is considered normal and acceptable. Making a lamb stand on a step to get feed is also normal.

 

And that doesn't even get into the crossbreeding that so-called purebred sheep breeders do. Go look at a show Dorset, and then look at a commercial Dorset. They are not the same sheep. Go look at a Columbia. See if you don't think there might be a little Columbia in the show Dorset.

 

Anyone with the temerity to challenge the legitimacy of the show world is attacked for being anti-kid, when in fact it's a business that is run by adults where adults get some pretty spectacular monetary rewards, using kids as a market for their lambs and a means to promote their breeding stock.

 

Now, of course, not everyone who shows sheep or breeds show sheep does these things. Some show sheep have very good lives. But the fundamentals that the kids are learning are not about how to raise sheep; they are about how to win sheep shows. The feeding programs and techniques, even when not appalling, are not scalable, economic, or even desirable in food animals in many cases.

 

As to what the US show ring does to sheep, take a look at the Suffolks that are winning shows in the UK:

 

http://www.suffolksheep.org/index.php?p=59...cd7b70e79809ecc

 

(pay particular attention to the winners of the best pen of three, noting the angle from which they were photographed)

 

and what are winning in the US

 

http://www.livestockexpo.org/photo_directo...ShowSuffolk.htm

 

[EDIT: The above link no longer works. To see winning US Suffolks, go to http://www.livestockexpo.org/show%20photos.../sheepOpen.aspx and select "Open Suffolk" from the drop-down menu. ES]

 

Suffolk sheep were developed as a terminal sire, meaning that they were bred to produce market lambs. The US Suffolk has become so large and unthrifty that it is difficult to use in a crossbreeding program without encountering dystocia (difficult births) and low lamb vigor. Lambs sired by Suffolk rams tend to need to be fed out to 150 to 170 lbs liveweight to acheive proper finish becuase the frame size is so radically large. This yields 75 to 80 lb carcasses, which produce roasts that are much too large for today's market and must be further fabricated in order to sell at retail. Lots of legs of lambs are boned out and cut up for stew meat because they are too big to sell even when halved.

 

Yet it is still the largest sheep registry by far -- nearly all of the registered stock is show stock. The British (original) version of this sheep has a much more reasonable size.

 

The first thing that the show ring in the US rewards is height. The second thing is lack of gut capacity (this is the reason for starving and dehydrating sheep before the show -- if their bellies are empty, the sheep will appear tubular). The other thing that show sheep seem to have in common is very long necks. Not sure why, but there it is.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Bill, is it possible to import Suffolk genetics from the UK here? Or do you know of anyone doing it? Those rams were gorgeous! It's such a shame we've gotten away from that. How do Americans manage to screw up everything we touch?

[Sue R]

A huge problem with show ring competition is that it doesn't reward good genetics or good husbandry. It rewards the breeding/practices that produce winners.

 

The "styles" that win promote extremes, and that is easily seen. Quarter Horses with tiny feet; Arabians with hair-trigger dispositions; beef cattle that have ranged (over the years, in the US) from the stumpy, short-legged winners of the fifties to the long and lanky, over-sized, high-tail-headed winners of just a few decades later (with toplines that didn't promote reproductive health with up-sloping pelvises in females).

 

As noted, compare "commercial" stock with show-ring winners, and you will easily see what Bill is saying. The same principles will also apply to breeding dogs for the show ring and not for a real job.

[PSmitty]

Thanks for the education, folks. Us city girls had no idea...

[Sue R]

Paula - Don't suppose that all folks who are involved in the showing of stock/dogs/whatever stoop to practices that exploit the stock and/or otherwise deceive. I am sure there are people that breed good stock and raise, handle, and show responsibly. But, do they win in the ring? It's doubtful, unless they show under very enlightened judges who see beyond fads and extremes and "conditioning" tricks. Perhaps more importantly, those are the folks, both young and older, that will win in developing and exercising good moral character.

[Shetlander]

I usually just lurk (and learn) on this section of the boards, but my first thought looking at those photos from of the US show sheep was "Holy cr@p! Those are sheep?!?!?" Followed by, "That's the livestock equivilent of what the show ring has done to German Shepherds."

 

Yikes!