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Oh so did CPE trial today pry 4th or 5th one for my 2 yr old BC

Issue he does not seem to want to play me

At class and outside in warmups its all good hes tuned in when we get on the field hes like in the ozone he does not respond at all come to heel my arm Qs whatever hes just like this is so dull and I would rather be elsewhere

 

So I am thinking #1 he really does not like this game #2 he does not care for me and want to join up and be part of the team its very strange

 

I cannot tell if I am putting off some vibe or really not conveying information

properly or what but theres just not any drive in the show pen outside its all good stuff

 

So is this baby dog behavior is it normal or am I head banging

Needed to just post this thinking if I write it down I will see the light but not so sure.

 

They are level 1/2 courses nothing major hard in them so its not like I am asking for much I should think it would be simple in class hes doing open level stuff and I have 3yrs eperience with my other dog so I do not feel nervy or anything that may stress him

 

Open for comments!

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At class and outside in warmups its all good hes tuned in when we get on the field hes like in the ozone he does not respond at all come to heel my arm Qs whatever hes just like this is so dull and I would rather be elsewhere

 

So I am thinking #1 he really does not like this game #2 he does not care for me and want to join up and be part of the team its very strange

I am not an "agility person" although I have taken a few beginner classes with a couple of my dogs.

 

I think you have a few good ideas here - either he doesn't like the game and he'd rather be elsewhere (one of my dogs was just this way about class for a time, but enjoyed practicing on our own) when it is time to go on the field, or you are feeling some anxiety (or other feeling) that is causing him to be reluctant or anxious (and this one dog of mine is an anxious dog, who feeds off my anxiety, so it readily becomes worse for him because of me).

 

If he's bonding and part of your "team" for warm-ups and other things, I would not say he "doesn't care for you or want to be part of the team", but that it's the issue(s) with "on the field" that are the problem.

 

Some dogs just can't take pressure of any sort - I know of a dog that was keen to get onto the agility field (or into the field with sheep) but, once she went through that gate, she would turn off. She "wanted it" but couldn't deal with the pressure of actually "doing it". It had nothing to do with how she related to her handler but that *she* just couldn't deal with things herself.

 

I hope I haven't been confusing, and I know that "real agility people" will help with good advice, but these are my thoughts - which pretty well parallel your feelings (except for the part about him "caring" or "being part of the team").

 

Best wishes!

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I am not an "agility person" although I have taken a few beginner classes with a couple of my dogs.

 

I think you have a few good ideas here - either he doesn't like the game and he'd rather be elsewhere (one of my dogs was just this way about class for a time, but enjoyed practicing on our own) when it is time to go on the field, or you are feeling some anxiety (or other feeling) that is causing him to be reluctant or anxious (and this one dog of mine is an anxious dog, who feeds off my anxiety, so it readily becomes worse for him because of me).

 

If he's bonding and part of your "team" for warm-ups and other things, I would not say he "doesn't care for you or want to be part of the team", but that it's the issue(s) with "on the field" that are the problem.

 

Some dogs just can't take pressure of any sort - I know of a dog that was keen to get onto the agility field (or into the field with sheep) but, once she went through that gate, she would turn off. She "wanted it" but couldn't deal with the pressure of actually "doing it". It had nothing to do with how she related to her handler but that *she* just couldn't deal with things herself.

 

I hope I haven't been confusing, and I know that "real agility people" will help with good advice, but these are my thoughts - which pretty well parallel your feelings (except for the part about him "caring" or "being part of the team").

 

Best wishes!

 

 

Thank you I did not think about other parts of his personality but he is rather soft if we get loud in the house goes to his crate or if he thinks he did not please you he is kind of cowering hes had limited sheep exposure so cannot gauge that activity or his repsonse in being pressured there hes pretty rowdy and keen but again not been put into a pressure situation you bring a very good train of thought for me to consider he may actually be stressing and I am not reading it as typically they will sniff or get the zoomies but I guess he is sort of shutting down by not offering his normal responses to the obstacles hmmmmmmm

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Hi,

 

If he is working happily elsewhere, I would consider two issues; ambiance and body language.

 

The ambiance of competition is always different from training and practice. The judge and stewards are (and other competitors may be) watching you both intently. Border collies tend to be more pressure-sensitive than other breeds, and can discomforted by being closely watched. Organising a "cheer squad" to watch intently then praise during training may help. The noise and activity focused on the competition ring is likely to add to any discomfort. Do your rules allow you to withdraw before completing the course? If so, you might build his tolerance for competition by running him through a few obstacles but withdrawing before he becomes overwhelmed.

 

Dogs are very aware of our body language, and border collies more so than most. In my view, to be successful as competitors (particularly in types of competition that don't satisfy the dog's instinctive drives) we need to think of ourselves as entertainers with a potentially challenging audience (our dogs). Our body language needs to say; "I'm in charge, I think this is a good place to be, we can have fun together here, let's do it!" Sometimes it is harder to do this when competing with our second dog in a class or type of competition; with the first dog it is all a "learning experience", with the second dog, we have something to prove, even if we are only subconsciously aware of this.

 

I must admit, I am often better at identifying body language issues with other handlers than I am at resolving them myself. So I have a check list when competing: Legs straight but not tense, spine straight, shoulders relaxed, voice (my worst problem) soft but confident and enthusiastic. Perhaps there are some dancers or actors on the forum who can give better advice about communicating the right message to our dogs. If so, I would love to read their comments.

 

I like to go into competition with the aim of preparing my dog for the next competition, rather than winning this one. That prompts me to think more about what will make my dog feel better about the experience.

 

A final disclaimer: my experience is mostly based on obedience competition. Agility competitors may have a different (and more valid) "take" on your problem.

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When, specifically, does your dog decide to 'turn off'? Is it when you set him up in front of the first obstacle and then lead out? If so, maybe you need to develop a slingshot start for him (at least for a while) so he doesn't have time to sit in front of the 1st obstacle and think too much. IMO, it is not uncommon to see a dog stress at the start of a course, but starts to relax and have fun when released and allowed to run (the course).

 

Just a thought,

Jovi

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Hi,

 

If he is working happily elsewhere, I would consider two issues; ambiance and body language.

 

The ambiance of competition is always different from training and practice. The judge and stewards are (and other competitors may be) watching you both intently. Border collies tend to be more pressure-sensitive than other breeds, and can discomforted by being closely watched. Organising a "cheer squad" to watch intently then praise during training may help. The noise and activity focused on the competition ring is likely to add to any discomfort. Do your rules allow you to withdraw before completing the course? If so, you might build his tolerance for competition by running him through a few obstacles but withdrawing before he becomes overwhelmed.

 

Dogs are very aware of our body language, and border collies more so than most. In my view, to be successful as competitors (particularly in types of competition that don't satisfy the dog's instinctive drives) we need to think of ourselves as entertainers with a potentially challenging audience (our dogs). Our body language needs to say; "I'm in charge, I think this is a good place to be, we can have fun together here, let's do it!" Sometimes it is harder to do this when competing with our second dog in a class or type of competition; with the first dog it is all a "learning experience", with the second dog, we have something to prove, even if we are only subconsciously aware of this.

 

I must admit, I am often better at identifying body language issues with other handlers than I am at resolving them myself. So I have a check list when competing: Legs straight but not tense, spine straight, shoulders relaxed, voice (my worst problem) soft but confident and enthusiastic. Perhaps there are some dancers or actors on the forum who can give better advice about communicating the right message to our dogs. If so, I would love to read their comments.

 

I like to go into competition with the aim of preparing my dog for the next competition, rather than winning this one. That prompts me to think more about what will make my dog feel better about the experience.

 

A final disclaimer: my experience is mostly based on obedience competition. Agility competitors may have a different (and more valid) "take" on your problem.

Yes we can do a few and quit just make a short trip and celebrate

and again insight of another party always opens things up I can say I certainly EXPECT his performance because he has so easily learned it thats why I guess i am so dismayed that its there but not coming out

with dog #1 i was just happy getting it thats hitting it on the head I need to backup and back off in order to move forward he is stressing I am inducing it but not seeing it as stress I am walking him onto the field all business and no fun like I am trying to win the world title whic is totally not my demeanor in training ah moment!

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What the dog experiences in the trial ring is different from what the dog experiences in classes, and even in warm ups on the side.

 

Back when I did Rally with Speedy when he was much younger, he was always perfect on the sidelines and then became overstimulated in the ring. Why? Because it's different in the ring.

 

He may be confused in the trial ring, he may be stressed by the trial environment, he may sense something in you that even you are not aware of, etc. etc. etc.

 

Whether or not to continue is a personal decision, of course, but for myself I would consider it premature to conclude that the dog does not like the game.

 

You could take a break from trialing him for a while and let him mature a bit more. That would give him a chance to enjoy the game more in settings that he finds more enjoyable. That would likely be my first approach in a similar situation.

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What is he like normally when running agility for practice and training? You said he's 'tuned in' but is he excited about it? Does he appear to be enjoying it? It really sounds like stress to me, especially if he normally is very excited and happy to do agility. If his practice performance is just 'tuned in' but not enthusiastic then I'd work on that first. Find a reward he likes (toy, tug, really good treats) and reward small bits of things he knows how to do. Make it exciting, like jump to a tunnel and exit to chase you to a toy and a few solid minutes of intense play. Try a toy rather than treats if you can, as treats are a good 'do that again' reward, but a toy not only says 'do that again' it also jumps up the dog intensity and excitement by bringing out some prey drive. Also it helps to have someone video you in competition vs training. One thing I see A LOT with new handlers is they get very excited and intense and it becomes life or death that the dog might miss a jump or something. Their voices change and they don't realize they're coming across as demanding, upset, or even shouting. All of which can really scare a sensitive dog. I'm not saying that's you, just that I've seen it a lot and I know the people doing it often don't realize they're doing it until they see it on a video.

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What is he like normally when running agility for practice and training? You said he's 'tuned in' but is he excited about it? Does he appear to be enjoying it? It really sounds like stress to me, especially if he normally is very excited and happy to do agility. If his practice performance is just 'tuned in' but not enthusiastic then I'd work on that first. Find a reward he likes (toy, tug, really good treats) and reward small bits of things he knows how to do. Make it exciting, like jump to a tunnel and exit to chase you to a toy and a few solid minutes of intense play. Try a toy rather than treats if you can, as treats are a good 'do that again' reward, but a toy not only says 'do that again' it also jumps up the dog intensity and excitement by bringing out some prey drive. Also it helps to have someone video you in competition vs training. One thing I see A LOT with new handlers is they get very excited and intense and it becomes life or death that the dog might miss a jump or something. Their voices change and they don't realize they're coming across as demanding, upset, or even shouting. All of which can really scare a sensitive dog. I'm not saying that's you, just that I've seen it a lot and I know the people doing it often don't realize they're doing it until they see it on a video.

 

I really think at the startline casue he will look all around and almost act like hes ignoring me but he never breaks the start soooooooo whats a slingshot how would you introduce it?

This conversation is doing what i need breaking it down for me to the bones please keep asking questions so i can really look at things piece by piece

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one piece to this my current instructor does not believe in running dogs till they are %100 and shes not okayed me to trial him so thats why i am not asking her at this point CPE is nothing like USDAA so I can get him in the lower classes for practice

 

my old coach(she has moved so we email) told me i should trial him young and get him ring broke so i am not sure whats the best thing and her responses are kind of like oh no worries he will get better with time

 

i am a worry wart and so afraid i will ruin this dog so maybe i should take curren coach advice but on other hand if she gets hiy by a bus i need to think for myself thats why i have turned to you guys for view points so i can exam and approach things

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i am a worry wart and so afraid i will ruin this dog so maybe i should take curren coach advice but on other hand if she gets hiy by a bus i need to think for myself thats why i have turned to you guys for view points so i can exam and approach things

 

I tend to start to trial early - once the dog can do so safely - both to give the dog trial experience, and to get a feel for what the dog needs in order to get to be really trial ready.

 

I'm doing this with Tessa now and it is absolutely the right thing for her.

 

I did this with Dean and I will admit, I moved far too fast. And he ended up with some stress issues that he may not have had, at least not to the same degree, if I had moved slower with him.

 

So, my position is that it depends on what is most beneficial to the dog.

 

Based on what you describe, it sounds to me that trialing is not beneficial to this dog right now. And that's OK. You can step aside from trialing, build confidence and drive, give your dog a chance to build a greater reinforcement history with running Agility, and go back to it later.

 

I get what you are saying about only having limited time with them, but I think it is always important to appreciate what we have in the time that we have. I've been working with Dean for years - literally years - to build his confidence to the point where he is really starting to be ready to trial more regularly. And that's OK. He is who he is and he needs what he needs. All of the work we have done to get to this point has been part of the ride and it's all good!

 

Maybe in the end, this dog won't ever be a dog who enjoys trials. But there is quite a lot that you can do to really give it a fair chance to see if that is the case. It really may be right now that this dog is just green and stressed in the ring (what you describe is very typical of ring stress). Or it might be that your dog hates Agility trials. If it's the first, there is a lot you can do to turn that around. If it's the second, then a new course of action might be better.

 

Scullywags, are you familiar with the Control Unleashed program?

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one piece to this my current instructor does not believe in running dogs till they are %100 and shes not okayed me to trial him so thats why i am not asking her at this point CPE is nothing like USDAA so I can get him in the lower classes for practice

 

my old coach(she has moved so we email) told me i should trial him young and get him ring broke so i am not sure whats the best thing and her responses are kind of like oh no worries he will get better with time

 

In principle I'm with your old coach. Expecting perfection is putting too much pressure on you and your dog. Why do you need to be OKd to trial?

 

We tell our newbies that if their dog stays in the ring and does a few jumps in order they've done well.

Next target is not getting eliminated , then getting a clear round and only after that hoping for a place.

 

Usually they exceed the target so they are really pleased.

 

There's only so much you can do to proof a dog in training - some day they are going to be thrown in at the deep end in a different environment and very few perform as in training from the start.

 

I can't give you any more advice than you have had about your dog, but for yourself just relax and stop caring about success or what anyone else thinks. It's about you and this dog, noone else, and not about your first dog so don't set your new one up to fail in your eyes because you are comparing them.

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i am a worry wart and so afraid i will ruin this dog so maybe i should take curren coach advice but on other hand if she gets hiy by a bus i need to think for myself thats why i have turned to you guys for view points so i can exam and approach things

 

This little insight into your viewpoint is helpful, too. Maybe you don't feel like you're exhibiting stress or putting pressure on yourself or him.... but you just might be more than you are realizing! And these guys can sense and be affected by any little bit of it!

 

I have an ACD that I run agility with - he is a soft, sensitive dog, and had some confidence issues as a pup. We did not start training until he was 2, and began trialing when he was 3 (also in CPE, which, as our local trials go, is the perfect venue for that sort of thing). By the time we entered our first trial at Level 1 CPE, he was training at an AKC Open level, so he was more than ready skill-wise.

 

At our first trial, I remember thinking that the only thing I am worried about was worrying too much. I tried SO HARD not to worry or be nervous.... but it happened!! As we walked to the start-line, his focus was on anything BUT me (why are all these people here?). When I removed his leash and tossed it, he had to go check it out (never cared about that before!). And when we started our run, he took 2 jumps and the dog walk and ran to the scorer's table.... he wouldn't come back for anything! I had to go leash him and end our "run". It was so uncharacteristic of how he had been in practice. I was SO embarrassed, and disappointed!

 

I had signed up for 2 runs that day, and seriously started packing my car after that first disaster, when another competitor came over to me and told me that she actually liked what she saw in my dog. Told me to get my butt out there and run that second run - after all, how much worse could it get? After all, I was not there to cure cancer or solve world peace... I was playing a game with my dog! Another competitor also suggested that I keep his focus on me (heel him) as we walked from the gate to the start line. We ran that next run. Whether it was the focus on me or the change in my attitude (or both!), he did it. Though he didn't do perfect, we had the biggest party! That change in mindset has really helped us - and we have been able to trial with lots of success this past year.

 

All this to say - be mindful of the pressure you're putting on him via the pressure you're putting on yourself! Don't worry about 100% perfection - it will come! In Level 1 CPE, do a few obstacles and have a party!.... You will probably still have a better performance that others at that level!

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My clients are not dogs but horses and their owners. My advice is not to show them (except if there is a schooling show) until they know every maneuver solid. Not perfect for the highest score but solid. This eliminates any question (most anyway) in the owners mind that will show in insecurities and leads to mis communications therefore adding stress for the animal

My definition of solid is a bit fluid. The reason why it is important to me is that once the team steps out into a different emvironment mistakes can and most likely will happen. No problem part of it. But at this stage it is crucial that the team has enough knowlegde and trust in each other to give and accept help without adding stress. Familiarity and a solid knowledge in the task at hand create this. The training creates it.

Maybe your current coach saw this dog as one that needed more time.

I do not believe that taking an animal out too soon (reasonable of course) causes permanent damage. However, I do believe it creates detours in a way. One for example being questions in the handlers mind. After all, it is supposed to be fun.

 

Also would like to add concerning "acting" in the ring. That concept always bothers me.

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My clients are not dogs but horses and their owners. My advice is not to show them (except if there is a schooling show) until they know every maneuver solid. Not perfect for the highest score but solid. This eliminates any question (most anyway) in the owners mind that will show in insecurities and leads to mis communications therefore adding stress for the animal

 

Very good point. The less you have to worry about, the better.

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another competitor came over to me and told me that she actually liked what she saw in my dog. Told me to get my butt out there and run that second run - after all, how much worse could it get? After all, I was not there to cure cancer or solve world peace... I was playing a game with my dog!

 

My attitude completely. I hate to see people disheartened and will often try to encourage them that way. The only way is up usually.

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I agree with everything that has been said. I do think getting out and trailing is an important part of training. Run thrus etc do not match the feeling of a trial. I have video of my second trial, Brody is distracted and nervous and I sound like a harridan, I also remember how nervous I was. Yesterday I was at a big NADAC trial with a huge novice class, and you could see and hear the tension in the novice handlers, entering trials is for you as well as him. It is learning to be calm, trying not to get tense, keeping your voice natural, even if your dog is bullet proof in class, it can all change at a trial because the handler becomes a different creature who the dog does not recognize.

 

I think one of the most important things I have learned is that each run builds on the next, as an example my young dog this year has had very few Qs this year, his first. We worked on not breaking start lines and not holding contacts at a trial, he now has awesome start lines, and I can have ridiculous lead outs that make experienced teams envious, his contacts are around 90% now, BUT we now have to come to grips with his frustration if I make a handling mistake, been screamed and nipped at by your huge leaping border collie is no fun and looks really bad. I am not one of those who say that Qs are not important, to me they are, I am also very competitive, and intially i was dissapointed that my awesome dog did not come out as one of those who made it to elite quickly but I have learned that to get to where I want to go with this dog I have to build a solid foundation in a trial environment.

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One thing I see A LOT with new handlers is they get very excited and intense and it becomes life or death that the dog might miss a jump or something. Their voices change and they don't realize they're coming across as demanding, upset, or even shouting. All of which can really scare a sensitive dog. I'm not saying that's you, just that I've seen it a lot and I know the people doing it often don't realize they're doing it until they see it on a video.

 

Amen. You just described my problem EXACTLY! :( And I'm not a new handler. I just let the pressure get to me. And then, like Jake&Tex said, I unintentionally put pressure on my dog. I'm much better than I used to be, but it's still there, and was very evident our last trial. My mental game needs a lot more work than anything else we have to do. Anyway, I think this is something that was well worth pointing out and could be an issue for the OP.

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I cannot tell if I am putting off some vibe or really not conveying information

properly or what but theres just not any drive in the show pen outside its all good

 

This comment alone makes me think that *you* are not staying in the moment. It's a team effort and requires 100%, that 100% can be 90% you and 10% him. It's partly a mental game and you need to stay focused as well. Don't dwell on the negative - build on the positive.

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And I think there really are two questions at hand for the OP.

 

1. Do you (as a handler/trainer) have the ability?

 

Most likely, yes. You may need to explore some unconventional approaches. Some patience might be required. Some trial and success and error will probably be part of the process. But there is always potential for improvement - always.

 

2. Is competition Agility an appropriate activity for this dog?

 

In a way that's the more important question, and really that could go either way. Based on what you have said, I think there are many things that you can try to see if there is a difference before making that determination.

 

One thing that is very difficult, but very necessary, is to try to consider this dog as an individual, and not in comparison to your other dog. I know that can be very hard to do. I know I make comparisons between one dog and other almost without thinking about it. But, really, what one dog does easily or well has very little bearing on what another dog's particular strengths may or may not be.

 

If you haven't done so already, I would highly recommend looking into the CU program for this dog. Although it has a reputation as a "reactive dog program", it really is not. It is a program designed to build confidence and focus in the sport dog, particularly in the trial environment. It's applications extend far beyond that, but that actually is the core of the program.

 

Might be worth considering.

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2. Is competition Agility an appropriate activity for this dog?

 

In a way that's the more important question, and really that could go either way. Based on what you have said, I think there are many things that you can try to see if there is a difference before making that determination.

 

I'd agree with that. And of course there are at least 2 types of "appropriateness". Some dogs will do agility because they get a real buzz from it that has nothing to do with the handler; others will do it because they are content to humour us but don't really understand the point.

 

Whether the handler is satisfied with the second type depends on what they want to get out of the sport. It's not a reason to give up with a dog in itself.

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Update Sunday we did try the slingshot start it worked as it was a short course he stayed in synch the entire run

 

in class 2 i has to do a lead out and he went mentally to the ball playing distraction behind him so as soon as i saw him flip an eye my way i released ans we did about 5 or 6 things in the small vicinity so he had to stay with me then i stopped and try to celebrate ans play but he was right back to looking for those other dogs playing ball soooooooo I have to make myself more fun than a ball or frisbee

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ok so after a few days mulling it over and watching a couple video shots my friends took I see where

I have to start

hes not locked in at the startline his obstacle performance is fine its gettinghim in the mindset of we are doing this right now!

the slingshot start worked cause he had no time to get his BC brain fixated on something else

so I have a request for some focus games can you suggest other than Gimme A Break some other ideas

he is OBSESSED with Ball and Frisbee dare he see another dog with such near the ring we are sunk!

 

 

then should I keep him home and mature more or find show n gos and practice his startline focus?

surely if he did not like doing agility he would balk at things during practice or show time so maybe its just this that I need to address I am told males are slower to mature and I do know I have expected him to be just at great at the show as he is at the house because hes a BC and they are all good agility dogs ha ha (generalized assumption from non BC owners!!)

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he is OBSESSED with Ball and Frisbee dare he see another dog with such near the ring we are sunk!

 

That's why teaching him to actually deal with being able to see other dogs playing with balls and frisbees would probably serve you better in the long run than just trying to be "more fun". You will never be "more fun" than those things. But you can teach him that he will eventually get a chance to play if he chooses to focus on you and build his desire to work with you that way.

 

I did the whole "try to be more interesting" thing for years and I was very glad to finally be rid of it in favor of Premack. Of course, if it works for you, then you can certainly find plenty of games that are designed to work within that philosophy, and do lead to good results with some dogs.

 

then should I keep him home and mature more or find show n gos and practice his startline focus?

 

It wouldn't hurt to do more practice at home.

 

At some point, though, you will need to build a bridge between what he can do at home and what he can do at a trial. But based on what you describe, it seems that more work at home may well be the best first step toward that, and may be a strong foundation that needs to be built.

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That's why teaching him to actually deal with being able to see other dogs playing with balls and frisbees would probably serve you better in the long run than just trying to be "more fun". You will never be "more fun" than those things. But you can teach him that he will eventually get a chance to play if he chooses to focus on you and build his desire to work with you that way.

 

I did the whole "try to be more interesting" thing for years and I was very glad to finally be rid of it in favor of Premack. Of course, if it works for you, then you can certainly find plenty of games that are designed to work within that philosophy, and do lead to good results with some dogs.

 

 

 

It wouldn't hurt to do more practice at home.

 

 

At some point, though, you will need to build a bridge between what he can do at home and what he can do at a trial. But based on what you describe, it seems that more work at home may well be the best first step toward that, and may be a strong foundation that needs to be built.

 

Can you elaborate or steer me towards material that will describe what you did

find worked in your situation I have so many people telling me do this do that I have nothing experience wise to draw from is the reason I posted and asked advice since experience on this board is what I feel will steer me towards better way to work things out for him.

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