Culture Clash?

[Journey]

I had this link emailed to me today, what a scary story Ranching vs Recreation. Not sure what to think...scary though, both sides of the story.

[kelpiegirl]

Read that the other day. I see both sides of the issue, but know, unfortunately, in the end, the ranching way of life will be lost to atvs/mountain bikes and hikers.

 

I had this link emailed to me today, what a scary story Ranching vs Recreation. Not sure what to think...scary though, both sides of the story.

[desertranger]

In setting up for tours one year I had a gal who wanted to sponsor them so I took her on a private one including the San Andreas Fault and a drive through the largest agriculture area in SoCal. Since it was grape harvest season we stopped and I asked the field jefe for a bunch of fresh picked grapes. Got a nice box for $5.oo. My guest looking at the grapes never thought thet grew in bunches hanging from a vine. When she bit into them she was also surprised, they were warm not ice cold. Duh! they grow in the sun.

 

I grew up on a ranch/farm. People, if you live in a city and don't know, we get milk from cows, fruits and vegies from thousands of acres of plantings and we slaughter lambs and cows for meat.

 

BTW I've had tourists who grew up in cities and have never been outside of one. They come to the country and remain themselves then complain when they, as in this case, run into a herd of sheep. Additionally they pass some really stupid laws that only hurt themselves. In the history of Calif water wars more than once the cities have taken water from agriculture at gunpoint so the cities could water their lawns. You don't take water from where you grow food.

[Anda]

This happens pretty often in Romania, as tourists get in the areas high in the mountains where shepherds tend their herds with few ferocious looking (and acting) LGDs. Everyone I know has had at least one close encounter with those dogs. You just learn to stay out of their way - I mean, it's a freaking huge herd of sheep, you don't just stumble upon it, you see it and hear it and smell it from a distance. But guess what - no police ever gets involved in such encounters. First - it's so remote, that it's considered very unlikely for this kind of incidents, plus no one has time to chase shepherds and their dogs. Unless, of course, the consequences would have been very grave.

 

Tourists/mountain climbers just learn to stay away from the fangs of those dogs.

 

It should also be expected that the shepherd(s) who stay with the herd react in some way, call their dogs off. In the example above from Colorado, there was a Peruvian shepherd with the herd - he should have called the dogs off....

 

Very sticky situation for both parties indeed.........

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Anda that the shepherd should have intervened, but like Kelpiegirl said, it's the rancher who will pay. Without the dogs he lost a quarter of his flock in one year. Ranching (unless you're a corporate mega-ranch) generally has razor-thin margins, and those kind of losses can't be sustained. Sadly, the ultimate result will probably be even higher meat prices, which likely won't greatly affect the couples like the ones in the story....

 

I do wonder why the county/government/whatever didn't take some responsibility, since it seems that in the past they did warn him to move his flock before large events. Failure at that point led to all subsequent events....

 

J.

[desertranger]

I'm on the side of the shepherd on this one. City-zens should not interfere where their food and clothing comes from.

[SoloRiver]

On the one hand, I respect where the rancher is coming from but on the other hand, if I understand this correctly, he grazes his sheep on public land. He doesn't own it, and shouldn't expect the rest of the world to stay out of it; he should count himself lucky that he's allowed to feed his flock for free on public land to begin with. I think the Legros are being needlessly vindictive and don't have much sympathy for them on that count, but it's not like the dogs grabbed her, they savaged her. Some mechanisms need to be put into place so that people can share public land (like the shepherds being warned that mountain bikers are coming through, etc.). If people can't learn to share and it becomes an us vs. them thing then I agree, the ranchers will be the ones to lose.

 

I personally hate mountain bikers, and if she'd gotten attacked by a wild animal I'd say well, it's the backcountry, it might happen out there, but she was attacked and very badly by a domestic dog. I don't see how this is her fault or how she could possibly deserve to have something like this happen to her, no matter how dishonorably she and her husband have behaved since the attack.

[Journey]

Melanie, I have to disagree with you on the part about the attack being from a "domestic dog" I hardly think dog's that live the life they do are very "domesticated". Even if the shepherd was there, he could have been on the other side of the flock, not easy to get through a huge mob. Yes, he was grazing public land but wasn't he under "contract" to do so? I'll have to re-read it. Sure, had they notified him he could have moved, however, as you point out, the Legros are not only being vindictive, they had to push for "criminal charges" no less...

[SoloRiver]

Sorry, guarding a flock of domesticated sheep is about as domesticated as a dog can get. There isn't anything natural about a flockguard. They aren't PET dogs, but they are certainly domesticated and they are most definitely not wild animals. For what it's worth, I am not sure that I think sheep belong in the backcountry at all (not sure if this area counts as backcountry) any more than hordes of mountain bikers do. It could be argued that the wilderness should truly remain wild, and "wild" does not include mountain bikers, or ATVs, or snowmobiles, or domesticated animals of any kind.

 

If shepherding cannot be performed on public land in a way such that the land truly remains public (i.e., accessible to all of us who technically own it) then sad to say, it isn't an activity that is compatible with use of public land. I don't see why it can't be, as I have interacted with numerous flockguards who were not dangerously aggressive toward humans, and some simple precautions (like the shepherds being warned that hordes of mountain bikers are about to descend) could prevent altercations like the one that occurred.

[mbc1963]

Ayup! Uh...duh. We city folks is so durned stoooo-pid. Aaah just a-love it when mah fellow board members point out mah stooopidity to me! Uhhhhh huuuhhhh. And all these-here years, I thunk milk come from a plastic bottle. Here I find out it comes from the innards of cows! Golllll-eee!

 

As to the conflict, I like to imagine that the issue starts with both sides being brand new to the fray: Imagine that sheep herders and recreational hikers and bikers were all, just now, applying to be allowed to use public land for their own specific use. I would guess there's be serious concern about allowing LGDs, who obviously are not trained not to attack humans, loose on publicly owned land. I'd guess there's be similar concerns about grazing sheep without LGDs: a losing proposition.

 

At any rate, while I understand both sides of the debate, I don't think the shepherds would win, out of hand. There'd be long and heated discussion. Maybe a compromise would be reached. The bikers and hikers are just as much a part of the current culture in Colorado as the shepherds. I suspect maybe things would even be slanted in their direction, because during their road races and such, they stay in local hotels, eat at local restaurants, and shop at local stores, thus generating a mess of tax dollars that help support the public lands. I do find it interesting that the rancher quoted in the article enjoys flying into Denver to see the opera. I wonder which subpopulation has brought about the influx of culture like opera, art shows, and theater?

 

When the world as it is now bumps into the world as it's been the last few years, there needs to be a discussion. The people who represent the way the world has been for a while don't get to win just because that's how things have been for a while.

 

(And, dare I remind my fellow board members, the "old time" ranchers had something to do with ending, destroying, decimating the way of life of the original denizens of the west, who didn't much like that culture clash either, I'd guess.)

 

Mary

[Bill Fosher]

Melanie,

 

Grazing on public land is generally done under a long-term lease with rights that can be very similar to ownership. The feed there is almost certainly not free. Without knowing more about the particular circumstances of this allotment, permit or lease, it's tough to say whether the rancher has the right to control other human uses of the land; he certainly has the right to protect his stock. The fact that land is publicly owned does not mean that it's necessarily open to any and all comers -- airports are generally publicly owned and we don't allow rollerblading on the runways.

 

It sounds to me as if the Legros struggled to find a way to get at the rancher -- civil litigation was out of the question so they pulled the levers of politics and got the public prosecutor to do their dirty work for them. When they couldn't get the rancher jailed, they were disappointed. To my mind, they would have been better off going after the organizers of the race for routing the race through a dangerous area. What needs to happen in Colorado (and probably in other places) is that farmers and ranchers need to review criminal statutes regarding dog ownership and ensure that their rights to protect their stock are not trumped by this sort of action.

 

In all honesty, I can put myself in both sets of shoes. It seems to me that the way the Legros handled the matter was vindictive and selfish. They just wanted to get the rancher, and it seems that they didn't care what the consequences to him, his sheep, and the very open spaces that they want to mountain bike through would be. The great herds of bison are gone. If every means of protecting grazing animals is taken from ranchers, the grazing will end and the land will not remain open and the Legros children will not be able to ride their mountain bikes through the high meadows. Even the predators will eventually die off, or -- at least in the interim -- they will move into the developments like the one that the Legros inhabit that are crowding habitat and start to prey on family pets and even children.

[juliepoudrier]

^^Well said, Bill. To add to his "public land" comments, I think we could come up with all sorts of examples of "public" lands for which access by the public is limited, including lands set aside specifically for the public's enjoyment, like national parks.

 

I feel sorry for Mrs. Legro that she was badly bitten by the LGDs. Having been bitten by a dog, I know it's extremely painful and scary. But I think they went overboard with their litigation and in the end that's the reason I don't have a lot of sympathy for their case, especially with the clear ploy for sympathy by stating she's now afraid of the family's 16-year-old dog. Does anybody really believe that? As I stated in my earlier post, it seems to me that the race organizers hold at least some responsibility for not informing the rancher of the race so he could keep his sheep to another part of the allotment. The fact that the Legros appear to have gone after the easiest target doesn't speak well of them.

 

On a livestock guardian list I'm on, someone commented that had she stopped her bike at the edge of the flock, the dogs might not have reacted the way they did, but by riding into the flock (if that's what really happened), she triggered their protective reaction. Of course, she couldn't be expected to know how LGDs operate, but according to the story, she was offered a ride back and she chose to continue to ride alone at the edge of dark. She bears at least some responsibility for making a decision that was not the best one. There are other dangerous predators she could have encountered at twilight--who would she have prosecuted or sued then? Melanie's right that these are domesticated dogs, and that gave the Legros an obvious target--their owner. Had it been a pack of wolves or a mountain lion, what then? Sue the state of Colorado for allowing predators to live on public lands that are open to use by humans? It's a slippery slope indeed.....

 

 

J.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

As soon as Renee Legro saw the sheep, she screamed. <snip> Legro, 33, screamed because she knew what came with the herd -- guard dogs. Shortly after she rolled down a hill and came upon the sheep, a dog leaped at her, locked its jaws on her hip and yanked her off her bike.

 

She screamed at the sight of sheep without having actually seen a dog, because she already KNEW there would likely be guardian dogs--but continued down the hill towards the sheep anyway, having alerted the dogs (by her own scream) that something dangerous was coming. Two nearby campers were able to drive off two large so-called "dangerous" dogs, who rather easily could have also attacked two more puny humans, but apparently they didn't. This wasn't the fault of anyone but Legro and her own stupid actions.

[Tea]

It is with great sorrow I read that article.

 

I work with a few ranches with LGD of different breeds, and this is always a concern. Now it is going to escalate and this will make the predator friendly program harder.

 

I agree with Bill

 

At home with my own flock I have to be very careful with the LGD and sheepdogs when foraging loose as the land is used by everyone.

 

There is something about bycicles

[Maralynn]

He doesn't own it, and shouldn't expect the rest of the world to stay out of it; he should count himself lucky that he's allowed to feed his flock for free on public land to begin with

 

True, but if you're leasing it (as is the common set up out there) it adds a whole different dynamic the the equation.

 

Do the mountain bikers need permits to use the land for a race? if so than a government agency dropped the ball. If not then they should be rethinking how they deal with already leased properties. If I leased property from someone I would expect to be kept in the loop about majoring happening on that property.

 

On the flip side, back country enthusiasts don't own the land either, (and AFAIK don't pay fees for special usage, ie, a mountain bike race). The land is not kept for their special enjoyment and it is not guaranteed safe for their usage. I have a hard time completely buying the Legros story. On one hand they are experienced back country enthusiasts who, by their own admission, where familiar with LGDs, but then you chose to expose yourself to predators at night and also ride screaming into a flock of sheep? Something doesn't jive.

 

To Legro and her husband, Steve, there was one person responsible

 

They needed someone to blame and refused to take any responsibility for the incident. The Robinsons destroyed to dogs and have not used LGDs there again, they at least accepted part of the responsibility. The dogs were tied up during the day so they wouldn't bother anyone - they were only let loose again when it was dark, when the race was supposed to be over. It was a horrible accident, not something criminal. And there are a few other involved parties that need to step up and accept their part of the responsibility for this.

[Tea]

But it seems like very few people want to accept that they are part of this equation?

 

It was a horrible accident.

 

-------------------------------

 

Does the bicyclist eat lamb?

 

wear wool?

 

Does she want the mountains to still have big predators?

 

 

Or is it just an idea? One that is convinient at a whim........

 

 

To be honest, I am tired........

 

 

People need to close their eyes and see the world in 100 years.

 

Then decide

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I talk to alot of people in my work, hunters, farmers, wildlife orgs, rehab...etc etc

 

 

And what I see that is the most positive, is the little families quietly changing how they live, what they buy, how they fit into the world as it truly is.

 

They give me hope.

[desertranger]

I question people who come out here and then walk into a situation where things are not known. Why would this woman even go near a flock of sheep? Would she ride through a herd of grazing cattle in the same way. Would she walk up to or ride through a herd of wild sheep? Good way to get killed by the alpha. For some reason people think that wild sheep are the same as domestic ones and walk right up to them until they get charged. Then they think it's funny. On tours I tell the tale of the Teddy Bear Cholla <choy-ya> an innocuous looking cactus that is the among most dangerous plants in the desert. I've got my audience cringing at the th9ught of what contact with a cholla wioll do to them yet when we stop at the cholla garden they still have to reach out and touch it. OMG!! It's not Fn wet paint. Same thing when mountain biking in the country; a herd of anything is not wet paint. Stay away from it, it's only common sense.

 

I appreciate your comments Mary but I have a nifty study by demographics of people who seem to leave their common sense at home while on vacation. It includes almost everybody.

 

"Are their rattlesnakes here? Are they dangerous?" asks a tourist standing by sign that that says "Warning Danger: Rattlesnake Habitat".

[Anda]

I question people who come out here and then walk into a situation where things are not known. Why would this woman even go near a flock of sheep? Would she ride through a herd of grazing cattle in the same way. Would she walk up to or ride through a herd of wild sheep? Good way to get killed by the alpha. For some reason people think that wild sheep are the same as domestic ones and walk right up to them until they get charged. Then they think it's funny. On tours I tell the tale of the Teddy Bear Cholla <choy-ya> an innocuous looking cactus that is the among most dangerous plants in the desert. I've got my audience cringing at the th9ught of what contact with a cholla wioll do to them yet when we stop at the cholla garden they still have to reach out and touch it. OMG!! It's not Fn wet paint. Same thing when mountain biking in the country; a herd of anything is not wet paint. Stay away from it, it's only common sense.

 

I appreciate your comments Mary but I have a nifty study by demographics of people who seem to leave their common sense at home while on vacation. It includes almost everybody.

 

"Are their rattlesnakes here? Are they dangerous?" asks a tourist standing by sign that that says "Warning Danger: Rattlesnake Habitat".

 

 

DR - Stop already with this holier-than-though attitude! If you chose to be a park ranger, wonderful, then it's your job to TEACH those poor clueless souls about the dangers and the miracles of wilderness.

 

How would you feel if every single teacher or professor would just make fun of her students behind their backs?! "Look at that moron 6 year old - he doesn't even know how to read! What an idiot!" Well, it's your job to teach them to read, not poke fun of them.

 

Stop it already..........you are rubbing so many people the wrong way each time you get on your little soap box and start preaching with irony and meanness. And use a spell check once in a while... would you, please?

[Tea]

There is a possibility that these were not purebred pyrs

 

but crosses.

 

And crossed with what becomes important.

 

There are some, that have come to my attention, that are crossing with Caucsian mt dogs

 

This may not be a good idea

[Amelia]

Hello all,

 

I read the LA Times article, then I just happen to go out and have a similar experience all my very own involving a neighbor in a car, my sheep, my dog and a small easement road. The next thing I knew I was screaming obsenities at the 20-something behind the wheel and wondering how people can be so ignorant.

 

I was crossing the easement road to a small pasture with my sheep and the neighbor was heading towards us downhill on the easement road. The sheep and dog were in her clear view. I was using the dog to hold the sheep off the gate until I could get to it and open it. The dog was driving them slowly uphill towards her. I looked up and saw that she had no intention of stopping for the 45 seconds it would have taken me to open the gate, flank the dog and get my sheep and dog out of harm's way. Wasn't too worried about the sheep, they would avoid the car, but the dog was focused. Car? What car? I abandoned the gate and started walking towards the woman in the car to stop her with my body. Not only did she keep coming, but she began to turn off the road onto the dirt shoulder to go around me, and was now headed straight towards the dog. That's when I went to crazy-ville. Was her time worth more than my animals?

 

I can understand both sides of the LA Times story. Bicycle woman was just out for a nice ride. The shepherd and his valuable, hard-working and now dead LGDs were just doing their job. I lay the blame for the entire tragedy at the feet of the race organizers for not asking the shepherd to move or contain his flock and dogs, and on the Forest Service where the sheep were grazing by permit for allowing a race without any consideration given to the shepherd.

 

Whatever happened to common sense?

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I have No Trepassing Sign on my pastures. I also use locks...they climb over the gate or cut the wire. People dont' or won't read them.

 

They go into my leased pasture which is 1/3 miles away from my house and left "Fluffy" play with the sheep.

 

One person's dog just ran the lambs down until they fell over but they lived luckily. The neighbor saw that and by the time he got there the person had left. The next time, he called me and I raced down there and read the person the riot act. She just wanted her dog to play with the sheep. I *educated* her and told her that she would pay for the sheep and I would have her dog put down. She saw the light ONLY after I told her it was like I could go to her house and open the door and play in her house, destroy a few items and leave.

 

Or in one case, take my Great Pyr out of the pasture and to the shelter. They admitted that to the shelter and I NEVER got my dog back, despite that she had a collar, tags and was chipped. The shelter claimed since she was running free in a pasture that I had abandoned her. Nevermind, she had a igloo, food, etc ...and I sent info to the shelter.

 

I made a point to be friends wiht my local AC and educate them on the LGD. They are in tune with me now.

 

They have been a few times I come home and people are in my barn, in the stall or the pasture trying to pet the sheep. Do they think it is ok to do that....well, apparently so!!

 

I was told by the AC not to put up "Guard dog on duty" sign or anything like that as that would open me up to a lawsuit. He told me to put up a bunch of "No Trespassing" signs.

 

Diane

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>I read the LA Times article, then I just happen to go out and have a similar experience all my very own involving a neighbor in a car, my sheep, my dog and a small easement road. The next thing I knew I was screaming obsenities at the 20-something behind the wheel and wondering how people can be so ignorant. <<

 

Same here...people seem to think if I am moving my sheep down the road, it is ok to whip right past them full speed...as if the sheep will not move and nevermind that my dog is there. When I move sheep I stop in the middle of the road and wave my crook around. If they look like they are not going to stop, I wave my arms more and walk in front of them. It is not a busy street and only a few cars go down it.

 

Many years ago, a friend of mine was moving the flock. She was a mom who had bunchs of children and would not put up with ANY NONSENSE. A teenager or 20's yr old tried to whip past her and my sheep. She stood in front of the car and knock on the window. I don't know what she said exactly (it was quiet) but whatever it was, the person was really quiet and very respectful after that. She is a mom that you would not want to piss off.

 

I am thinking she gave them her "mom speech".

 

Now it is getting close to Xmas and there is tree farm on our road. The folks just got 50 on a 25 mph road. it get bad at this time of the year. I don't move my sheep until after Xmas. I finally got the locals trained but the other folks...forget it. However if the small city of Carnation would like to fill their coffers with lots of speeding ticket money, my road at this time would do it just fine.

 

Diane

[kajarrel]

We had a funny incident here. I had my sheep grazing in the furthest point away from the road in a 20-some acre pasture we own. I was walking the dogs and was coming out of our woods. I saw a young couple strolling hand-in-hand out to see the sheep. I had my GSD and didn't want him (and the other dogs) to run to the couple so put them into a down-stay. We were at least 1,000 feet away so I couldn't hear the couple but could see everything. The couple approached, and started petting, the sheep who had crowded up to the side of the fence. All of a sudden, the young man must have touched the (innocuous looking Premier) electric fence because he jumped back. I could see the couple discussing what had happened. I, of course, was rolling on the ground laughing. I imagined the young man asking, "What was THAT?" Made my day. For some reason people seem to feel that land in the county (even when clearly posted) isn't "owned" by anyone . . . I always wonder how these people would feel if my husband and I came to their homes and had a picnic on their yards?

 

Regarding cars not slowing for animals. This is also a pet peeve of mine. I've had people come within 1 - 2 feet (traveling at >55 mph) of my dogs holding lambs along side the road. We own property on both sides of a road where the speed limit is 55 mph. Our stretch of road has sheep and horse crossing signs. When I need to move the sheep across the road, I always have someone help me. I ask them to tell me when it's clear and then to try to stop any traffic that arrives; but I tell them once the sheep start across the road they (the sheep) can't stop. I simply will not send my dog out into moving traffic to stop the sheep . . . I cannot trust people to stop for my dogs :-(

 

Kim

[kajarrel]

Now it is getting close to Xmas and there is tree farm on our road.

 

Another problem we have around here is with people who cut down trees on our (and our neighbors') property for Christmas. Again, I think that people would be appalled if someone did this to them in their neighborhoods, but see no problem doing this in "the country."

 

I'm on a roll - sorry for the negativity.

 

Kim

[sea4th]

There is a possibility that these were not purebred pyrs

but crosses.

And crossed with what becomes important.

There are some, that have come to my attention, that are crossing with Caucsian mt dogs

This may not be a good idea

 

If you look at LGD breeds on a scale starting with the "mildest" (for lack of a better term" to the fiercest, it would probably go from pyr to Caucasian ovcharka. They developed in different geographical areas for different needs. The CO's developed in remote regions of the Caucuses and with warring tribes, their jobs ranged from flockguard to village guard. These dogs were expected to treat a stranger as they would a wolf or a bear. So I think Tea has a point to consider.

 

I know someone who had an LGD from the New Hampshire LGD project where different breeds were crossed -- theirs was a pyr/sar planina cross and he was pretty darned scary.

 

I haven't read the reason behind this thread, but just wanted to comment on the CO thing, since I've had two -- not as working LGD's, but because I've had them, I became interested in their history and evolution.

 

Now I'll go back and read the issue being discussed here.