Barbie Collie Herding

[jdarling]

Ben, HERE is a list of trials that might be of some help to you, if you haven't already found this. I was going to also give you an example of an AKC herding event, however, that's a moot point since you're in Canada. I don't know what the equivalent would be up there that you could compare it to and see the way conformation bred dogs work.

 

Do you own Border Collies?

[geonni banner]

However, by completely not caring about aesthetics I fear that bcs will no longer be a breed and be more like a type like Alaskan Huskies. Alaskan huskies are bred only and solely for working ability and conformation wise, there is a huuuge variation.

 

Well heck, Meryl Streep doesn't look much like Johnny Depp either, but they can both act. That's why they're called actors. Sophia Loren is beautiful. But that isn't what makes her an actor. It's her ability to act that removes all doubt about that.

 

Bugger the "breed type." Give me a useful dog!

[Smalahundur]

However, by completely not caring about aesthetics I fear that bcs will no longer be a breed and be more like a type like Alaskan Huskies.

 

In that case by your definitions the BC has never been a breed. Fine by me, call it what you like, type or breed, working ability should be the only criterium defining the BC (imo as a breed as I don´t agree with your definition of it).

[juliepoudrier]

However, by completely not caring about aesthetics I fear that bcs will no longer be a breed and be more like a type like Alaskan Huskies.

Have you seen Barbara Carpenter's National Sheepdog Champions, which discusses the national sheepdog champions of the individual nations of the UK--Britain, Scotland, etc., and Blue Riband of the Heather, which discusses International Supreme champions? Both books are full of photos of these top-level working dogs. Go get the books. I think you will find that there is no particular standardized look for working border collies and never has been.

 

Besides, whose aesthetics should we care about? I prefer smooth-coated prick-eared dogs. Should my aesthetics be the standard? And if not, then should I be required to call my good working dogs something else? Should the judges from kennel club shows determine that all real border collies should be black and white, with full white collars, and tipped (artificially created of course) ears, with lots of coat, even though lots of coat is quite impractical in certain situations? Should short-legged, long-backed dogs be the standard, for aesthetics sake?

 

Ever hear the chestnut "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?" So whose idea of beauty do you choose? We have seen with breed after breed that an AKC judge's idea of beauty has led to ruination, not only from a health standpoint, but also from a purpose standpoint.

 

What about the dogs like Christine R.'s Lone or Polly Matzinger's James and Sirius? Registered border collies who happen to also be bearded. We call them beardies, but they certainly aren't at all the same thing as the AKC Bearded Collie. Should James, who is currently competing in the USBCHA National Sheepdog Finals be given some other name? He's got a lot of the same dogs in his pedigree as other working border collies who didn't happen to get the bearding gene....

 

Seriously, though, as I said before, if you want to try to create a line of dogs that can win in the show ring and also compete at the highest levels of USBCHA or CBCA trialing, have at it. If you prove it can be done, then I imagine you'll be the hero of a lot of show peopple and KC aficianadoes.

 

For myself, I will keep getting dogs that from lines that work to a certain standard. They'll look like what they look like, and it's funny, but the youngster I have now could pass as a Barbie Collie, albeit with longer legs. Is he my style WRT looks? Heck no. But if he works well, and so far he does, then that's all that really matters. And FWIW, his parents don't look like anything you'd see in a show ring, nor do his siblings.

 

J.

[BenjaminButton]

Do you own Border Collies?

 

I have had 3 in my life. Only one right now. One was a working bred one more than 20 yrs ago from a farm no registration, no health tests. He was a free puppy. The other 2 are both rescues.

 

I have absolutely no interest in breeding a dual champion herding dog.

I have no interest in breeding period.

 

So what happens when breeders/farms start adding aussies, sight hounds or w/e into the breedings? Would this new type still be considered a BC if it does great work?

[amc]

So what happens when breeders/farms start adding aussies, sight hounds or w/e into the breedings? Would this new type still be considered a BC if it does great work?

 

The ABCA's Registration on Merit program will register any dog that meets the working standard. So, if an owner of a crossbred dog such as you describe could meet that very rigorous standard, yes. It would be registered with the American Border Collie Association.

 

Amy

[juliepoudrier]

So what happens when breeders/farms start adding aussies, sight hounds or w/e into the breedings? Would this new type still be considered a BC if it does great work?

If they're cross breeding, then they couldn't register the dogs as border collies in the first place. If they have some sort of breeding program, with a specific goal in mind, they could do something like the Hangin' Tree Cowdog folks did and start their own registry and specify what's required to register a dog there.

 

To call it a border collie it would need to be registered with a recognized registry. Someone with a crossbred like you mentioned above could in theory ROM a dog, but the ROM process does ask a breeder to provide specifics of the dog's breeding, so it's really not meant as a means for someone to register *any* dog, but rather a dog that is essentially an unregistered border collie. Exceptions could exist (that is, if the non-border collie could meet the working standard, it could be registered), but Joe Farmer who just starts crossing stuff to get something different that the typical working border collie is in effect creating a different "breed" and probably isn't likely to pursue ROM anyway. What would be the point?

 

J.

[BenjaminButton]

Oh I didn't know that! That's quite interesting. So basically from what I gather of this thread BCs are just like Alaskan huskies and are not really a defines breed other than being able to do certain work at a certain level.

[Debbie Meier]

So what happens when breeders/farms start adding aussies, sight hounds or w/e into the breedings? Would this new type still be considered a BC if it does great work?

 

The dogs would not be eligable for registration as it is a crossbred and I suspect would be suspended from ABCA if they tried to falsify records.

 

It is my understanding that if they were to be proven to have what it takes from a working standard, or if their future offspring was able to be proven they could be brought into the ABCA registry via the ROM program. If you go to the list of dog currently at the National Finals there are a one/two/few dogs that I noticed were ROM'ed, 1 is waiting for final approval.

 

I suppose that over time the crossbred ROM'ed dog may get entered into the AKC books since AKC honors ABCA papers, but I've heard rumor of dogs that are bonefide border collies but without papers getting refused into the limited registry program for not looking like what AKC or the parent club believes a border collie should look like. Besides, by the time it got to that, there is a chance that the outcross blood would so deluited by crossing back to pedigreed border collies that it would have little effect.

 

That's fine by me, I suspect that eventually the AKC border collie will be clearly a different looking dog all the way around to the point where it will be obvious to the uneducated as to which is the real working dog.

 

 

 

Besides, whose aesthetics should we care about? I prefer smooth-coated prick-eared dogs. Should my aesthetics be the standard?

 

Sure, I'll vote for it, just make floppy ears a monor fault not grounds for deregistration!!! (GGG) Or should we start buying into tampons and tape so we can meet the standard?

[juliepoudrier]

Oh I didn't know that! That's quite interesting. So basically from what I gather of this thread BCs are just like Alaskan huskies and are not really a defines breed other than being able to do certain work at a certain level.

Well the AKC would dispute that definition of a breed, but at sheepdog trials, no one blinks an eye at a dog that doesn't look like the "classic" border collie. There are plenty of B&W rough-coated dogs, some even with the tipped ears, but there's a whole lot of coat, size, ear set, color, prominence of stop, height, weight, bone, etc., variation as well. But if you're at a trial like the finals, you can bet no matter what they look like, they all work to a high standard.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Or should we start buying into tampons and tape so we can meet the standard?

I seriously considered that for Ranger, and then decided that doing something like that would make me a hypocrite, so I left his ears alone, lol! I have taken thinning shears to his tail and breeches, though, because I just couldn't stand the extreme fluffiness factor....

 

 

^^Egad! He looks cow-hocked in that photo. Surely it's a structural fault that will cause his body to fail with too much work...

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

Oh I didn't know that! That's quite interesting. So basically from what I gather of this thread BCs are just like Alaskan huskies and are not really a defines breed other than being able to do certain work at a certain level.

 

 

I think that it depends if you are referring to the AKC Border Collie or the ABCA/ISDS Border Collie

[Debbie Meier]

I seriously considered that for Ranger, and then decided that doing something like that would make me a hypocrite, so I left his ears alone, lol! I have taken thinning shears to his tail and breeches, though, because I just couldn't stand the extreme fluffiness factor....

 

 

^^Egad! He looks cow-hocked in that photo. Surely it's a structural fault that will cause his body to fail with too much work...

 

J.

 

 

But is he cowhocked while moving around a showring or standing square on the podium???

 

What a.......

Fluffbutt!!!!

 

BTW, to me he does not look barbie, he just looks like a rough coated working dog that's not done growing yet...oy when he grows into those legs...

[PSmitty]

I seriously considered that for Ranger, and then decided that doing something like that would make me a hypocrite, so I left his ears alone, lol! I have taken thinning shears to his tail and breeches, though, because I just couldn't stand the extreme fluffiness factor....

 

 

^^Egad! He looks cow-hocked in that photo. Surely it's a structural fault that will cause his body to fail with too much work...

 

J.

 

Maybe, but I bet he could clean up in the show ring! *ducks*

[Debbie Meier]

Hey Julie, just follow the trend over on the cattledog side....bzzzzz

 

 

But you gotta leave the tail alone

 

 

Thinking that Juan, John, Murray & Pete all were running manmade smooth coats this summer

[Tea]

smile

 

when you say

alaskan husky

 

stranger.

[geonni banner]

Well, Julie, I just got lucky. Having been scarred for life by my association with the Rough Collie fancy, I just gravitate to tulip ears. And look what I got! No moleskin, carburetor-cleaner, surgery or tampons. (tampons?) When I got this girl at 6 months I assumed her ears would go up. Any Rough Collie I've seen with this ear-set at 6 mos. would have been prick-eared by nine mos. without "intervention."

 

I wouldn't have tampered with her ears to keep them over - but I complimented her on them at every turn. These doggone Border Collies are so eager to please that she kept her perfect Shetland Sheepdog ears just to make me happy. And as an added bonus, she has a BRAIN!

 

[njnovice]

I seriously considered that for Ranger, and then decided that doing something like that would make me a hypocrite, so I left his ears alone, lol! I have taken thinning shears to his tail and breeches, though, because I just couldn't stand the extreme fluffiness factor....

 

 

^^Egad! He looks cow-hocked in that photo. Surely it's a structural fault that will cause his body to fail with too much work...

 

J.

 

I always said I would leave a dog's ears/tails alone, but I seriously think if I ever got a pit bull puppy that started getting prick ears, I'd glue the ears. They just look so stupid to me with prick ears.

 

I'd take thinning shears to Ranger, too. He is a good looking dog, though.

[ejano]

Did someone say ears????? Brodie and Robin are related (center and right) but neither have ears like Mom or Dad... Ladybug is a rescue... None of my crew are prick eared...though the boys' Mom was....can't remember Pop, though I did see him.. They come to attention once in a great while, if something is especially interesting....

 

Their coats are different weights and textures, none particularly heavy; none fit the definition of "smooth coat", though I do sometimes wonder about Brodie...

 

Liz

 

 

 

 

 

 

I always said I would leave a dog's ears/tails alone, but I seriously think if I ever got a pit bull puppy that started getting prick ears, I'd glue the ears. They just look so stupid to me with prick ears.

 

I'd take thinning shears to Ranger, too. He is a good looking dog, though.

[airbear]

Ben, HERE is a list of trials that might be of some help to you, if you haven't already found this. I was going to also give you an example of an AKC herding event, however, that's a moot point since you're in Canada. I don't know what the equivalent would be up there that you could compare it to and see the way conformation bred dogs work.

There's an arena trial this Sunday in Laidlaw (just west of Hope). The classes range from Rookie to Open, and there probably will be other breeds besides collies in the lower classes. I don't think there are many conformation collies around here, though the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) did allow them into the conformation classes a few years ago. My dogs will be competing, so if you drop by, stop and introduce yourself. I'm pretty easy to spot - the skinny Asian chick with the big split-faced dog (Lou) and the little black dog (Rex). Oh, and the barking dog in the van (Wick). Festivities start around 9 a.m. I believe.

 

Jodi, I haven't been to either an AKC or CKC trial, but from what I've heard from people who do both is that they're about the same. And for what it's worth, the top Intermediate herding dog in the CKC for 2010 (based on the dog's top 5 scores from that class) was a Boxer named George. From what I see in the standings in all the classes, it's mostly Aussies, Shelties, Corgis, and a few Kelpies and Belgians (and a Standard Schnauzer!) in the Top Dogs listing.

[border_collie_crazy]

*pssst* standard schnauzers were bred to be a droving dog, so thats not totally out there lol. but ya I heard about the Boxers, a local boxer breeder likes to brag about it, she puts HICs on all her boxers, and LOVES to brag about George because "yup, a Boxer beat the border collies at their own game!" I held my tounge on that one lol

[BenjaminButton]

There's an arena trial this Sunday in Laidlaw (just west of Hope). The classes range from Rookie to Open, and there probably will be other breeds besides collies in the lower classes. I don't think there are many conformation collies around here, though the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) did allow them into the conformation classes a few years ago. My dogs will be competing, so if you drop by, stop and introduce yourself. I'm pretty easy to spot - the skinny Asian chick with the big split-faced dog (Lou) and the little black dog (Rex). Oh, and the barking dog in the van (Wick). Festivities start around 9 a.m. I believe.

 

Jodi, I haven't been to either an AKC or CKC trial, but from what I've heard from people who do both is that they're about the same. And for what it's worth, the top Intermediate herding dog in the CKC for 2010 (based on the dog's top 5 scores from that class) was a Boxer named George. From what I see in the standings in all the classes, it's mostly Aussies, Shelties, Corgis, and a few Kelpies and Belgians (and a Standard Schnauzer!) in the Top Dogs listing.

 

Thanks a lot for the info! I doubt I can drop by this week since I'm working the whole weekend. I'd love to fine some other trials to go to in advance though! Then I can book a day off and go have a look.

 

Are there any youtube videos of conformation BCs herding? I'd love to see some.

 

Also what are the conformation breeder's thoughts on the working dogs?

[brndlbc]

versatility = jack of all trades master of none

 

Probably said by a person who has never been around foundation quarter horses

[stockdogranch]

Are there any youtube videos of conformation BCs herding?

No doubt there are a bunch out there...but

I'd love to see some.

Why? I guess I don't get your fascination with this whole topic. What's your stake in this?

Any "youtube videos of conformation BCs herding" are likely to be ACK arena trials, where the dogs trot along behind some VERY dog broke sheep (Trust me, I've seen LOTS of them, not on youtube, but in person over the last 15 years). Frankly, any resemblance between that and a dog doing any "real" work is just a fantasy. So, again, I am really wondering what it is you're looking for or really asking here...

 

I've seen a LOT, like in the many hundreds, of "border collies" bred for things other than working ability over the years--whether that be for conformation or sports or "versatility," and, as Julie pointed out, it becomes obvious pretty immediately that there is something vital missing. And, as others have pointed out, there may be some dogs registered with the ACK, but in reality are working bred (and then just dual registered or whatever, like the dog in the original article), so...are you trying to convince us here that dogs bred for other than working ability are better at working stock (notice the lack of the term "herding") that those that ARE bred for work? I'm confused...

A

ETA:

Also what are the conformation breeder's thoughts on the working dogs?

The working-dog person's smart-assed answer to that is, "who cares?" But the general thing one hears is that "working breeders don't do any sort of health screening (hips, eyes, etc.), and their dogs aren't "structurally sound."

[BenjaminButton]

No doubt there are a bunch out there...but

 

Why? I guess I don't get your fascination with this whole topic. What's your stake in this?

Any "youtube videos of conformation BCs herding" are likely to be ACK arena trials, where the dogs trot along behind some VERY dog broke sheep (Trust me, I've seen LOTS of them, not on youtube, but in person over the last 15 years). Frankly, any resemblance between that and a dog doing any "real" work is just a fantasy. So, again, I am really wondering what it is you're looking for or really asking here...

 

I've seen a LOT, like in the many hundreds, of "border collies" bred for things other than working ability over the years--whether that be for conformation or sports or "versatility," and, as Julie pointed out, it becomes obvious pretty immediately that there is something vital missing. And, as others have pointed out, there may be some dogs registered with the ACK, but in reality are working bred (and then just dual registered or whatever, like the dog in the original article), so...are you trying to convince us here that dogs bred for other than working ability are better at working stock (notice the lack of the term "herding") that those that ARE bred for work? I'm confused...

A

ETA:

The working-dog person's smart-assed answer to that is, "who cares?" But the general thing one hears is that "working breeders don't do any sort of health screening (hips, eyes, etc.), and their dogs aren't "structurally sound."

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything!! I just like debates and I find this topic highly interesting. I'm not saying conformation or sports dogs can herd or whatever you are saying that I'm implying, I'm just questioning the different breeders of border collies. I want to know why a show bred dog can't herd and why working folk are so vehemently opposed to any other breedings other than a working dog. Sure the simple answer is a BC is a working dog but trialing is more along the lines of sports than working anyways. It's just another form of competition, so why is it superior to other forms of competition like agility, obedience, etc. etc. And how does one decide what kind of work should be done by a BC? any kind of herding whether it be ducks, emus, sheep, and cows or only sheep?

 

I gain nothing from it other than the opinions of different people and I enjoy that. I want to understand both sides and their reasons for breeding what they do.

 

I personally have no problems with sports bred BCs provided that they are not maniacs, bouncing off the walls, no focus at all which seems to be becoming more common in sports breedings. I have met a few sports bred BCs that are very stable and are doing amazingly in agility or frisbee and I see no problem with that. In fact I've met a few of Jan's dogs at the agility classes near here and they have good temperaments. In fact, one of the agility instructors I know has 2 of them and recommends them to her students. Of course I've also met a few crazy BCs that I absolutely cannot see fitting into any home at all from sports breedings...

 

The biggest problem I have with people breeding is just breeding for no real reason. Not even something like show or sports. Plain, no purpose, no health test, no proven dogs in anything breeding is what constitutes bad breeding to me.

 

From what I've learned in this thread I think the show BCs should possibly start a different breed (I mean consider their show bred BCs a different breed) and call their dogs something else and go from there.