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AKC Herding Judges...


JaderBug

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Back when I ran sled dogs I used Border Collies. People asked me why I didn't get a breed better suited to the sport (husky). A better dog could pull more weight and withstand more extreme weather. My answer was that it was just a fun activity to do with the breed I loved. I wasn't running the Iditarod or Yukon Quest, just doing some sprint races. Sound similar?

 

If someone buys a Sheltie, gets into working stock then buys a small farm that manages just fine with the dogs at hand, why make that owner get a breed they don't want?

 

I'm not trying to support the AKC, never have, just pointing out that it sounds very elietist to tell the people who enjoy stock work as a HOBBY to switch breeds because theirs is inferrior for the job. Now, if someome bought the sheep first, realized they needed a dog to help on their small farm and asked my opinion, I would suggest a Border Collie rather than a Sheltie, Corgi, Briard, etc.

 

Remember Serena's thread? Remember all the people telling her that she didn't have to be the best agility handler or even compete to enjoy the sport as a bonding experience? Same idea. As long as the owners of other breeds are practicing good stock handling skills and treating all the animals involved with respect, let then have fun. (And if they do want to compete, suggest the AHBA program which does not support conformation showing.)

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Eileen, I did resign prior to the admittance of the Border Collie but on the request of many good friends renewed to help them-and they have other breeds.

 

I guess I'm sunk in confusion here. How does your being a judge help your friends? If a judge in the legal system said she resigned but then returned to the bench at the request of friends in order to help them, eyebrows would be raised. If you mean you did it to help your friends train and learn, why did you need to be a judge to do that? If you mean you did it to ensure that your friends got their Qs and ribbons and titles -- but surely you didn't mean that. :o:)

 

They fully understand my position. I do not accept many judging assignments as I find it very difficult to judge the poor work that is most often exhibited. Does this justify affiliatoion, perhaps not, but I do not need to justify my actions to those who are closed minded anyway.

 

No, you don't. You don't even need to justify them to those who are open minded, but I understand your wanting to do so.

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While there are those who think the AKC program is a seal of excellence, I think you would find many who recognize it for what it really is, while most outside of the AKC don't know the difference and unfortunately that is a problem.

In my limited sphere of experience with people involved with pursuing AKC titles (and AHBA titles), they either feel it is a "seal of excellence" or (if they don't) promote as a "seal of excellence" or some other "proof" that their dog has "true herding ability because that's what they have been bred for" (even if their dogs' ancestors haven't been selected for that purpose for generations), thereby justifying breeding said dogs and justifying participation in the AKC system.

 

And for some reason, even achieving the very lowest "titles" is proof positive that the dog "has it all". Just my observations, your mileage may vary, and (as I said) I have had limited exposure - but the attitudes I have seen have been remarkably consistent. And not just confined to people involved with the AKC Border Collie but also other breeds that have some sort of titling in fieldwork (gun dogs, other "herding" breeds, etc.).

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If someone buys a Sheltie, gets into working stock then buys a small farm that manages just fine with the dogs at hand, why make that owner get a breed they don't want?

 

I'm not trying to support the AKC, never have, just pointing out that it sounds very elietist to tell the people who enjoy stock work as a HOBBY to switch breeds because theirs is inferrior for the job.

 

But wait -- who is making them get a breed they don't want?? Who is telling them to switch breeds??

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I do not equate the judging of what is a hobby (to those who participate in working trials of any type) to judging people in a court of law.

 

If people consider the titles/ribons to be meaningful I can do little about that except try to educate them-don't understand it but recognize it exists

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Diana,

The C course was meant to be a tending course--a means to showcase tending breeds. From discussions on Herders-L it seems that the original intent behind the three different course types (A, B, and C) was to showcase the strengths of the various herding breeds. So dogs like German shepherds and similar breeds could shine on the C course, which requires a dog to maintain a specified perimeter around a flock/herd that is grazing. The dogs are trained to recognize a perimeter (marked) and to patrol that. FWIW.

 

To those asking about Pam's comments, what she was saying to say was that some people have breeds they love and they want to work with those breeds. She was saying the opposite of what people seem to think she was saying. If I had ended up with a bouvier (nearly did) and fell in love with the breed, then I might just have wanted to work stock with the breed I own and love. It wouldn't be helpful for someone to tell me to get another breed, so Pam's remarks relate to the fact that she offers training to folks who have breeds other than border collies because those are the breeds *they* want to work with. In other words, she works with other breeds in other breed venues because those are the dogs the owners have and want to work with and she won't presume to try to convince them they should give up on their breed and get a border collie (and then, by extension, start competing in border collie trials instead of AKC/AHBA). I don't understand the need to be a judge in order to help people trial their other breeds, though. The person I started with also offered training to other breeds, but she herself never trialed in anything but USBCHA and she didn't judge or otherwise participate in AKC events. I think that's a reasonable approach; it's one I could live with, though TBH I have not enjoyed working with other breeds very much, so probably wouldn't do it anyway.

 

I agree with Sue regarding titles. IME the people who seek them and get them do consider them important and proof of the ability (and also sometimes breedability) of their dogs.

 

As Diana noted, there is a culture within the AKC that says if you've gotten your Ch on a dog you should stop trialing it so that other up-and-coming dogs have a better chance to also get a Ch. They don't seem to get the idea that the newer dog *ought* to be able to beat current champions in order to get its own Ch designation, and they also don't seem to understand that a culture of forcing current champions out to make it easier for newer dogs to get their Ch essentially diminishes the value of a Ch tremendously.

 

There was a recent thread about this on Herders-L. I kept asking if the Ch was important because breeding decisions were based on its presence or lack. Very few people would admit that they wouldn't breed to a dog that didn't have its Ch, even though numerous people also indicated that they could recognize a good working dog when they saw one. But apparently, even with that recognition, they still needed that Ch before making a breeding decision. It's a whole different world....

 

J.

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Back when I ran sled dogs I used Border Collies. People asked me why I didn't get a breed better suited to the sport (husky). A better dog could pull more weight and withstand more extreme weather. My answer was that it was just a fun activity to do with the breed I loved. I wasn't running the Iditarod or Yukon Quest, just doing some sprint races. Sound similar?

 

If someone buys a Sheltie, gets into working stock then buys a small farm that manages just fine with the dogs at hand, why make that owner get a breed they don't want?

 

I'm not trying to support the AKC, never have, just pointing out that it sounds very elietist to tell the people who enjoy stock work as a HOBBY to switch breeds because theirs is inferrior for the job. Now, if someome bought the sheep first, realized they needed a dog to help on their small farm and asked my opinion, I would suggest a Border Collie rather than a Sheltie, Corgi, Briard, etc.

 

Remember Serena's thread? Remember all the people telling her that she didn't have to be the best agility handler or even compete to enjoy the sport as a bonding experience? Same idea. As long as the owners of other breeds are practicing good stock handling skills and treating all the animals involved with respect, let then have fun. (And if they do want to compete, suggest the AHBA program which does not support conformation showing.)

 

Good stuff, Liz!

 

And then there are also people like me (*dons flame retardant suit*). I don't have "other" breeds, I have border collies, but they will NEVER be USBCHA material. Lots of people like me enjoy the idea of trialing, but we have to work with what the dog is capable of doing. It doesn't mean that we think that AKC trials are the epitome of what a border collie should do, in fact many of us know it's exactly NOT that. I don't know people who make breeding decisions based on the titles earned at these types of trials, either. I know they're out there, but I personally don't know anyone with the mindset that Sue R describes. What I have experienced is people who enjoy their dogs, enjoy working with livestock, and are doing what they can with the dogs they've got.

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This question is unrelated to the ethical implications of dual venue judges, but I don't know where else to stick it. Does anyone think that certain breeds have lost their herding instinct to such an extent that they don't even belong in the herding group? If so, I wonder if the "weak" herding tests would perpetuate the idea that a breed is a herding breed that really is no longer appropriate for that function.

 

For example, when I started showing dogs as a Jr. there were only six groups. Border Collies were in the miscellaneous group and German Shepherds were in the working group. I was rather surprised then, when the GSD was taken out of the working group and put in herding when the split came about in the 80's. This is because, although I knew the herding history of the GSD, I thought that role had long ago switched over to one of guard/sentry/police dog. That could just be my lack of knowledge regarding GSD's used for herding.

 

I'm curious. Does the GSD ever compete successfully (or at all) in USBCHA trials?

 

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A better question is did they every really have good abilities? Most of these 'breeds' were choosen from local dogs that looked a certain way, some may have been useful others who knows. In reality Border Collies, Kelpies and certain lines of the German shepherd dog are the only dogs (maybe a couple of rare breeds like Koolies) that have been intentionally selected for working abilities.

 

I have seen a couple fo GSD that would have the abilities to run at smaller USBCHA trials but they tended to lack owners/handlers with the ability.

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Paula,

I think you are part of a subset of people doing things with the dogs they love, and not typical of the AKC herding breed breeder. It's those latter folks who imbue all sorts of signficance in AKC/AHBA titles.

 

That said, I took my dogs to an AHBA trial once and ran them on the advanced ranch course (HRD III?). They were 1st and 2nd both days. A bunch of folks told me after that trial that if I went to just one more trial I could probably get a certificate! These were all people who trialed at the novice level in local handler's association trials and also entered AHBA because they wanted to get titles and certificates. So I think there are plenty of folks out there for whom the reward/award is a real motivating factor. I actually see it in USBCHA style trials, too, where people will attend the novice classes only if they know doing so will get them points toward a year-end award or other honor. That's not a big deal--if rewards/awards is what motivates, then great. But too many of these people hang out their shingles to give lessons and breed their dogs based on successes at the titling venues. I don't know which is worse, lol!

 

I entered the trial because I kept hearing that the ranch dog test was a true test of real work on the farm. And yet, the trailer that had to be loaded was out in the middle of the field, without anything to stop the stock from just circling (everyone I know would put a trailer along a fence line so the human and dog have to cover only one side, not both), and it turned out that once I got just one of the three or four sheep on it, I was told by the judge that it was sufficient and I could move to the next obstacle! :blink: It *was* fun, and I think the large flock courses that are sometimes offered would be fun too. But the entry fees were significantly higher than those for typical border collie trials, so it's not something I would do often. But I certainly do see the appeal, at least of the ranch courses.

 

 

Anyway, my comments about breeding based on titles earned are largely the result of my experience on Herders-L and personal experience with folks in some of the local handlers associations. I wish more people would use those titling venues just for fun like you and the people you know do.

 

J.

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I'm curious. Does the GSD ever compete successfully (or at all) in USBCHA trials?

 

USBCHA trials are designed to test and showcase the strengths of the Border Collie, not any other particular breed or group of breeds.

 

Just because the GSD (or any other breed) is lumped into "herding" does not mean that the stockwork style that breed may have once been bred for is anything like the stockwork style another breed has been bred for. That is why, I understand, there are different courses - for the dogs without big outruns "A", for the dogs with bigger outruns "B", and for the tending dogs "C" (extremely simplified).

 

As for whether GSDs are grouped with "working" or "herding", I suppose that could be based on whether or not they are grouped by historical or more recent general use.

 

I don't care what breed or type of dog a person uses for their stock if the work that the dog can and does do is useful and suitable, and the stock are treated well. It should all be about good husbandry, and that requires good care for the stock. And that goes for hobbyists, too - the stock are not dog toys, and their welfare is important.

 

We've used Aussies that suited most of our work most of the time, and were quite happy with them. But, when I saw what a Border Collie could do that was well beyond what my otherwise very useful Aussies had done for us, I realized that that was the kind of dog *I* wanted to help on *my* farm and in *my* situation. And *I* liked the Border Collie personality better, but that was me, not the dogs. The dogs are what they are.

 

And I've never tried to convince anyone else that a Border Collie was *the* dog that they needed or wanted. I do feel that for many or most people, if you are serious about stockwork, a working-bred Border Collie is in general, the most talented, most suitable, most useful dog - because Border Collies have been bred for the work. But as most other breeds have been bred with other things in mind (show, pet, companion, performance, anything but stockwork), a person is often more likely to find a suitable Border Collie than a suitable dog of another breed.

 

What bothers me about AKC and the pursuit of titles is that AKC puts breeding for appearance in the forefront, and that people feel that titles (no matter how minor or how insignificant) are proof of true working ability.

 

I really need to avoid getting sucked into this debate but I know, from past experience, that I don't have much chance of that. I'm ever a fool...

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Claudia, I'm pretty sure that Sue just meant that her quick synopsis of the courses was extremely simplified.

 

Sue said: Course A-for the dogs without big outruns, Course B-for the dogs with bigger outruns, and Course C for the tending dogs.

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Paula,

I think you are part of a subset of people doing things with the dogs they love, and not typical of the AKC herding breed breeder. It's those latter folks who imbue all sorts of signficance in AKC/AHBA titles.

 

<snip>

 

Anyway, my comments about breeding based on titles earned are largely the result of my experience on Herders-L and personal experience with folks in some of the local handlers associations. I wish more people would use those titling venues just for fun like you and the people you know do.

 

J.

 

Yes and thank you. I agree.

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What Paula said - my "extremely simplified" meant that my summarization was extremely simplified and was not implying any reflection on the courses. Any course, in any venue, can be dumbed down or made more challenging. My comment had nothing to do with anything but my description - and had I been thinking better in terms of words, should have read "extremely briefly summarized" or some similar disclaimer.

 

The "copyright" symbol was a typo, and I had just typed the C within parentheses, like the A and the B, but that comes out as the copyright symbol. So I went back and fixed it.

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Sue,

This forum reads a c followed by a parentheses as a command to produce the copyright symbol. It's the same reason people who list a B followed by a close parens get the smiley face with sunglasses. The downside of emoticons: when you actually mean to convey something else, the damn things pop up anyway....

 

J.

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Sue,

This forum reads a c followed by a parentheses as a command to produce the copyright symbol. It's the same reason people who list a B followed by a close parens get the smiley face with sunglasses. The downside of emoticons: when you actually mean to convey something else, the damn things pop up anyway....

 

J.

Sorry to sidetrack, but is it possible to make it so you have to go to the emoticon menu to get an emoticon? I hate it when I get them inadvertently.

 

Sorry, carry on.

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I'm curious. Does the GSD ever compete successfully (or at all) in USBCHA trials?

 

Sue already gave a thoughtful and eloquent answer, so I'll just give my short version:

 

I doubt it.

 

I've seen quite a few GSDs run in AHBA and ASCA trials, and some demonstrated actual talent and stock-sense. But what I notice most about them is that they simply aren't quick enough in movement, fleet enough of foot or fast enough on a long run to do the same work as a border collie. And a border collie is what USBCHA courses are designed for. When faced with flighty, fractious sheep, the GSDs I've seen generally find themselves playing "catch-up."

 

I saw a *very* nice GSD at a large flock AHBA French trial this summer, one of the nicest I've ever watched ... but she timed out, because she was unable to cover all the sheep's escapes or tangents, and lost time due to her (very commendable) attempts to get them back under control.

 

I think it's that lack of sheer speed and cutting-horse moves that would hold a GSD back in USBCHA trialing. It's not a fault in the breed, per se - it's just that they are different breeds and therefore work (and were bred) in different ways, for different tasks.

 

~ Gloria

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There is no way to compare or lump German style TENDING with the way Border Collies work. Never was meant to. I have HGH bred dogs and did a lot of research into it also partially because I remember from my childhood watching huge herds being moved around for grazing. Totally different environment and therefore requirements.

Edited to add that it should read one HGH bred dog. Also to add that I never could pursue it due to the lack of trainers and the need for larger amounts of sheep to even get close.

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There is no way to compare or lump German style TENDING with the way Border Collies work. Never was meant to. I have HGH bred dogs and did a lot of research into it also partially because I remember from my childhood watching huge herds being moved around for grazing. Totally different environment and therefore requirements.

 

This is what I was missing; the distinction in working style. It makes more sense now.

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Ok, I must be missing something or I am confused by tending? What is it exactly?

 

 

 

When I forage my sheep loose I use border collies.

usually 2

 

Most of the time the dogs sit at my feet or by my horse. There are no fences, a few old logging roads.

 

Sheep graze or browse on indigenous brush. They drift a bit......then a dog will swing out and block and then when the sheep know the boundary my dog will come back to me and sit. It is all pretty quiet and peaceful really.

 

 

The flock size depends on how good my year has been. It could be 50 it could be close to a couple of hundred. There are a few spots where the dogs have to be careful about not letting the sheep drift too much up in one of the community areas. The island has more houses now. But still it is my old ewes that know the drill.

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Dear Sheepdoggers,

Ulf Kintzel hosts a tending trial on his New Jersey farm http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/sh-events.htm. I've never met him but he has an excellent reputation. Though there is tending work a Border Collie couldn't do (I'd never leave a Border Collie to guard sheep), from video's and rules, the trial work isn't beyond a Border Collie's capacity. There are style points for which a Border Collie would be penalized but one ought to be able to do tending trial work successfully. I've thought about entering but Mr. Kintzel's trial is the same weekend as the last of the weeklong Virginia trials, just an hour from home.

 

Donald McCaig

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Tea, somewhat correct. Now add busy streets, properties that are not fenced, lay of the land amongst much denser civilization. GSD's are trained to protect boundries which could be furrows, streets etc. Also are to protect against outside threats to the herd.

I would like to think (because my Border Collies are my first love and by what I know about them) that it would be much easier to adapt a Border Collie to some sort of tending than to expect a GSD to herding BC style that includes lifting, fetching, balance etc.

Look at the history of the breeds and the land and culture. But there is no question that in real life, i.e. not stylized trials who hit on many of the requirements but can not possibly cover every aspect of the job, the service the dogs provide will overlap.

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