Cooking for dogs?

[simba]

The vet suggested cooking for my dog as an option post-pancreatitis.

 

I don't want to do BARF. Heck, I'm probably going to stick with kibble. I would just like to research my options a bit about this. However, on reading studies they seemed to consistently (a) tell me a lot of recipes out there aren't adequately balanced and then ( not tell me which ones are.

 

I am going to go back to the vet for follow-up. I'd just like to have 'done my homework' before then, so I know what I want to do, what's possible, what questions to ask, that sort of thing. But the problem is even the websites I've been looking at require me to go to my vet first (Balanceit), or else want me to pay for the recipe before I even know if it's any good (or for a consultation). It needs to be a low-fat diet, which is partly what's limiting my options.

 

So where do I find AAFCO-adequate, nutritionally balanced home-cooked recipes? Any general information anyone has on the nutritional requirements of dogs would be useful too.

 

The Cynoanarchist has some good links, I know, and I've been reading her studies. What about the Strombeck diets, are they any good?

[GoodbyeHalcyonDays]

I don't know anything about cooking for your dog firsthand, but I have a friend who rescued a Samoyed from her grandmother; when she got Cheyenne at the time, she was grossly overweight (I think about 140lbs or something). It was very, very bad. After about a year of feeding her nothing but green beans with a small handful of kibble for an entire year, she has lost so much of that weight and is healthy again.

 

I guess what I was getting at is that instead of trying to find recipes for your dog, why not just look for recipes for humans instead while incorporating and/or substituting foods they can't/shouldn't eat instead. Most "dog" food is literally just "human" ingredients anyway, so why not just cut out the middle man and look for low-fat diet recipes for humans and cater them to your dogs instead? Like maybe make a chicken stir-fry, but only use ingredients that are good/healthy for dogs (i.e. no soy sauce or anything like that, but maybe drizzle in some oil and/or an egg to give it some kind of flavor?) I'm sure your dog won't really care about how it tastes but that it gets to eat "forbidden" food instead.

[GentleLake]

Honestly, I'd just go with a prey model raw diet. I have one dog who doesn't do well with fat, so it's very easy to tweak it to her needs.

 

All the starches and veggies in most home cooked versions (as well as some raw versions), as well as the supplementation because you've cooked the nutrients out of the food, really aren't necessary.

[simba]

I get what you're saying, GoodbyeHalcyonDays but it would be nice to know that I can safely feed her that- even if I alternate with kibble, I'd want to know it was reasonably balanced. I do that at the moment a bit already with her, gradually trying her out with different foods.

 

GentleLake: there are potential future medical reasons for her, but mostly I just don't particularly want to deal with feeding raw, and I have no problem with feeding dogs veggies and starch. Sure, they're not necessary, but chocolate isn't necessary for me nutritionally.

 

Seriously, someone should tell her that it is not normal to tear through a bag of shopping just to get to raw carrots.

[airbear]

This book has a number of recipes that can be lightly cooked, as well as a long explanation of that to put in the diet and why. I think I lasted through 2 weeks of making my dogs' meals before I went back to their commercial raw diet.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Beckers-Real-Food-Healthy-Dogs/dp/0982533128/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406691151&sr=1-1&keywords=real+food+for+healthy+dogs+and+cats

[alligande]

I used to cook for my late Brody when he was sick, he had digestion issues and kibble was causing lots of issues and it was felt that raw would be to much for a compromised system. I worked with a animal nutrionist who has border collies and feeds them raw, but who's full time job is as a nutrionist for a zoo, so I figured if she could keep all variety of animals healthy she would have a good idea for a border collie. At the time my vet wanted me to feed a canned perscription diet which he hated and I thought was absurdly expensive.

What shocked me was the amount of supplements required to make cook meat and a small amount of rice a balanced meal for a dog, particularly the amount of calcium.

If you are interested in her contact info, I can PM to you, she was very affordable and worked with me to tweak my particular needs and it gave me a great amount of piece of mind that I was getting it right for his weight and needs.

[Shetlander]

Quinn was diagnosed with IBD when he was two and I couldn't find a kibble that he did well on. I just didn't want to feed raw and the holistic vet didn't feel he could handle raw at that point. I started feeding him.Sojourner Farms original pre mix with cooked meat. That has seemed to work well for him, though I don't know that Sojo's is AAFCO.

 

The vet who has the blog Speaking for Spot (also the name of one of her books), just did a post on homemade diets usually not meeting AAFCO standards.

 

My Sheltie developed pancreatitis a couple years ago and it has remained a chronic issue. She eats a low fat Prescription Diet which I know is considered terrible by many, but she is doing quite well on it as she approaches 16, so that is good enough for me.

[simba]

She's on a low fat prescription diet at the moment, her coat is shiny, she's happy and full of energy. My only issue with it is that it's less 'flexible' than the diet of the other two- if you run out you're in trouble because you can only get it in certain places- and of course it's more expensive. I'd like to be able to have options.

 

The vet suggested cooking for her could be an option in the future. She seems to be having immune problems, reactions to foods, so he reckoned it would be a better idea to start her off on one thing/ingredient at a time and seeing how she copes.

[juliepoudrier]

As someone else said, consult an animal nutritionist and get recipes individually tailored for your dogs' needs.

 

J.

[NorthfieldNick]

Seriously, someone should tell her that it is not normal to tear through a bag of shopping just to get to raw carrots.

Could they explain to my dog that stealing and eating cucumbers & carrots out of the harvest basket is also weird? Of course this is the dog who learned how to pick peas & will do anything for a banana....

[simba]

Juliepoudrier: I will once I've talked to the vet about it, but he suggested doing some reading around the topic first, and that he'd be happy to look at anything I brought in- this is just part of my pre-vet 'homework'. Don't worry, I'm not going to go and start feeding her brown bread and carrots and hope for the best...

 

 

Did I ever tell on these boards the story about the person who decided skinless chicken breasts and gravy was the best possible diet for her dog?

 

 

Cucumbers, really? Interesting. I know guide dogs often get carrots as treats.

[GentleLake]

GentleLake: there are potential future medical reasons for her, but mostly I just don't particularly want to deal with feeding raw, and I have no problem with feeding dogs veggies and starch. Sure, they're not necessary, but chocolate isn't necessary for me nutritionally.

 

My point was just that it can be much easier to feed raw than some of the approaches would make it seem.

 

And I'll never push someone to feed raw who doesn't want to. Just putting it out there as an option.

[GentleLake]

2 of my 3 love cucumbers!

[juliepoudrier]

Simba,

I wasn't worried you were going to do something inappropriate. I have seen all the information out there on homecooked diets (having availed myself of that info in the past) and even have a couple of books on the subject as my own resources. Given the sheer volume of information out there, having to figure out what's good, what's just adequate, and what's poor is somewhat mind boggling. If I were going to go with a homecooked diet, I would skip trying to figure it out myself and ask for/pay for help from someone who is well-versed in that sort of thing. That's all I was saying.

 

Laura Carson, who posts here occasionally as CarsonCrazies, has two older dogs in kidney failure right now. She is traveling and I am looking after the two old girls because they also need daily fluids, meds, etc., and it was more than her mother (who usually keeps her dogs when she travels) should be asked to manage. She has homemade diets for both dogs, but even though they both have the same medical problem (renal failure), they are on different diets. She worked with a nutritionist, who tailored the diets to each dog's specific needs and blood chemistry values. Laura could have just gone with whatever generic "kidney diets" she found, and they probably would have been adequate, but she felt that tailoring the diets to each dog's individual needs was the best way to go. Just throwing that out there, because her situation also had me thinking about homemade diets and how to choose them....

 

J.

[simba]

Raw: It's not necessarily that I feel it's complicated, it's that I don't like it, if that makes sense? I mean, there are reasons as well but mostly it's just personal preference.

 

Hmmm, must try cucumbers. Raspberries always go down a treat with ours, unfortunately- little buggers take them off the bushes. Apples too but they MUST have the skin removed for the Terrier Princess.

 

I get you, Juliepoudrier, and it is an important distinction. I'm just more at the stage of looking for information to consult with the vet about.

 

Edit: I find sometimes at the vet there's so much information all at once, if I prepare ahead I can actually have the questions occur to me before I go rather than three days after.

[simba]

Any suggestions for foods I should introduce her to to see if she can tolerate them? I've tried oatmeal and egg, thinking of trying rice next, then chicken, maybe lentils?

[mickif]

I have two recipes from my vet, one with grain, one without. If you would like them let me know, I just don't want to type it all in if your not interested . Or I can scan n attach

[simba]

That would be great, if it's not too much trouble!

[mickif]

Simba, I'm on the road today will post it tomorrow, no prob at all.

[Two Labs & Mia]

Two approved my by Vet for Marysa, (the 13 year old Cho Lab who passed this year). You're welcome to print and run this by your Vet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Vet said to always give her one "Pet Tab" daily while on homemade, something to do with proper calcium phosphorus ratios. But yeah, always make sure and run it by your own Vet 1st.

 

Two, 2 LB bags brown rice, cooked.

6 LBS boneless, skinless chicken breast, boiled, rinsed, cubed.

2 LBS shredded, boiled, carrots.

6 cans peas with no salt, rinse well to remove sugar, puree in food processor to a paste.

 

Mix well in super big food storage containers. Keep enough in fridge for 3 days to serve right out of container, freeze the rest in freezer bags. (The stuff is dense, takes a while to thaw so you know.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Variation: 6 LBS lean ground turkey, boiled, rinsed, rather than chicken.

6 cans green beans with no salt, rinse to remove sugar, puree in food processor, rather than peas.

4 or 5 large sweet potatoes, baked, peeled, mashed, rather than carrots.

1 quart apple sauce, with no added sugar/salt.

 

Her GI issues and allergies both stopped and she had many happy years after changing from kibble. Good luck!

[mickif]

Here are the 2 recipes (attached hopefully ).

 

This is what I do in hopes to get max. nutrition from cooking... As in the grain free recipe, I use the food processor to break down the veges. I lightly cook the meat, lower heat, just until still slightly pink, versus well done.

 

If I use the grain recipe, I normally use quinoa or millet (soaked overnight) instead of other grains, though I have used oatmeal and brown rice occasionally. I cook the grains separately. I'm kind of anti grain but in the past few years I am less hardcore about it all.

 

So, if I use grains, I cook them. I lightly cook the meat, add the pulverized veges, calcium and cocunut oil in and leave til cooled slightly, and then mix in the grains.

 

I have a singleton dog, now 6, who has always had disgestive issues (he was only with his mom a very short time). I have tried many different probiotics, both dog and human formulas. The very best bought one I have used is Geneflora, amazing difference. Recently I have started making kiefer, started from keifer grains and I have to say, it is working really well in place of any other probiotic, dogs love it and I drink alot and love it too.

 

I use Verti Science Canine Plus for a vitaman supplement (good price at amazon), and have long used the BioAge for my dogs and for myself.

 

Disclaimer: I believe in balance over time versus balance with every meal. Varying meats and fish and veges in the recipes has worked well for me (the dogs). For most of my dogs, I mostly feed raw but now also give kibble now and again. I sometimes use Honest Kitchen or Sojos. My older dog is having some issues with raw so he gets mostly cooked now. I have used the above recipes for months at a time for some of my dogs and am comfortable with how they are feeling, looking and acting when on these cooked diet. All of my dogs get a few bones a week (beef or lamb neck bones, turkey necks). Diets were provided by a holistic vet with an allopathic vet background.

 

My dogs eat much better than I do!

Basic-cooked-diet.pdf

GrainFree-cooked-diet.pdf

[Smalahundur]

Diets were provided by a holistic vet with an allopathic vet background.

Tiny pet peeve of mine, there is no such thing as an "allopathic" vet. This is a nonsense term dubbed by homeopaths to have a degrading term for regular medicine. What you mean is simply a regular vet.

[mickif]

Sorry I stirred up a pet peeve. My vet has never mentioned the word "allopathic". This is how I think of the differences.and actually, looking up the word allopathic, interestingly, in the human doctor world, it is a word used to describe the difference between a M.D. and an D.O. A few quick references I found:

 

http://www.hpplc.indiana.edu/medicine/med-res-twokinds.shtml

http://www.superpages.com/supertips/allopathic-physician.html

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/2012/04/23/how-to-decide-between-an-md-and-a-do

 

So... not really sure that "holistic" vets came up with the word to degrade "regular" medicine, though some may use it with an attitude and belief to degrade.

[simba]

Thank you for those recipes, that's brilliant! Any reason for the quinoa/millet preference? She can definitely tolerate oatmeal, I will go try her gradually on the other ingredients. It's tricky because you have to feed her one thing at a time and then wait for a day.

 

It was actually homeopaths who came up with the word to denigrate the 'regular' doctors at the time. It predates osteopathy (by about 30 years), and modern medicine. "Not contented with choosing a name of classical origin for itself, it invented one for the whole community of innocent physicians, assuring them, to their great surprise, that they were all Allopaths, whether they knew it or not" Oliver Wendell Holmes 1842.

 

It was the classic pre-scientific medicine of 'bleed, purge, blister' which is associated with folk traditions found all across the world. Ironically a lot of allopathy was what we now think of as alternative medicine: huge dependence on herbal medicines (like aloes), bleeding and cupping (same tradition as acupuncture), bowel cleansing/autointoxication etc.

 

That's why it is called 'allo-pathy', to make it out to be the opposite of 'homeo-pathy' ('treating with the same'). It was long considered to be a highly offensive term but some mainstream doctors have adopted it more recently. Not all of them accept this, because of its origins. And this is why you do not ever hang out with history nerds because we get all excited and CLEARLY EVERYONE LOVES HISTORY.

[GentleLake]

Tiny pet peeve of mine, there is no such thing as an "allopathic" vet. This is a nonsense term dubbed by homeopaths to have a degrading term for regular medicine. What you mean is simply a regular vet.

 

Words -- usage and meaning -- change.

 

Whatever its origin, it's now an accepted label among mainstream medical folks themselves. In addition to the sources Mickif points to, Johns Hopkins University uses it apparently without issue: http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/allopathic.html (Interesting to not the they seem to bear no ill will towards Hahnemann for coining the term. Perhaps it wasn't he but his followers who used it pejoratively?)

 

I don't particularly like some of the language shifts that occur, but I remind myself that language isn't static, it does change, and I need to get over it.

 

ETA: Oh, and who defines what's "regular"? If allopathic or mainstream medicine is "regular", then by inference all other forms are "irregular"? You may believe that but there are many people who would argue that point, including practitioners of osteopathic medicine (DOs). (Most of my physicians are DOs, not MDs).