I am looking for a breeder.

[Falloe]

I am looking for a reputable breeder to buy a Border Collie puppy from next year. If someone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it! I live in Colorado, but I am willing to buy a puppy out of State. Below is a list of preferences I have.

 

- The parents must have been tested for genetic health issues AND cleared before breeding. (I would like to see proof of this too.)

- The parents (and future litters) must be ABCA registered. I am not interested in an AKC breeder.

- The parents must come from working lines and be actively working.

- The puppy must be sold with a health guarantee (preferably for 1 year, at the least).

 

I am willing to pay up to $1000.00 (or a little more) for the puppy if he/she is what I want. If you can help me out in finding a good breeder, please let me know!

 

I would REALLY prefer a breeder who wants to know about me, where their puppy is going, and someone who will talk to me a little bit about their dogs/puppy/breeding program, etc. (I have received so many 1-liners from breeders who are only interested in the money and do not care where the puppy is ending up).

 

[Root Beer]

I have no suggestions, but I wish you all the best in your search.

[gcv-border]

As I see this is your first post, you may want to do a search on these boards for 'searching for Border Collie breeders' to pull up past threads (some very recent) related to the same topic.

 

I could be wrong, but many working-bred pups are not sold with a health guarantee. If that is a deal-breaker for you, you should be looking at sport-bred litters.

 

Good Luck.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'll second the heads-up about the health guarantee. I don't know of many - can't think of any - working breeders who do that. Sire and dam will be tested for CEA and their hips OFA checked, and they'll be able to tell you about things like epilepsy or joint problems in their lines.

But the breeders who do the plethora of tests and offer health guarantees are usually sport and/or AKC breeders.

(Personally, I'm a little confused about what a health guarantee is for. After all, if I've had a pup for a year and it turns out she has bad hips, it's not like I'm going to send her back to the factory, and good working breeders are unlikely to have parvo or kennel cough in their litters.)

~ Gloria

[red russel]

please enlighten the ignorant... (me) exactly what does one expect in a health guarantee? i've never seen one.

 

should be quite a few excellent dogs and breeders in Colorado.

 

and and... if you are looking for a working dog you might consider something between 12 - 18 months of age. you will have a better idea if it is healthy, better idea of temperament, much better idea if is keen and it will be showing you how it works by then.

 

dave

[CMP]

Can I ask to what purpose you intend to put the dog?

 

The requirement for working parents, both actively working, will make your search a little harder, I would think, if you are not intending to work the dog on stock. From my own experience, breeders of working dogs will rarely/never sell to someone who does not intend to work the dog.

 

That might be just in my corner of the world, though

 

In either case, I do hope you find what you are looking for - a BC is an experience every dog lover should have

[bcnewe2]

The requirement for working parents, both actively working, will make your search a little harder, I would think, if you are not intending to work the dog on stock. From my own experience, breeders of working dogs will rarely/never sell to someone who does not intend to work the dog. End quote..

 

Not sure where your from but here in the US that is a normal breeding criteria. I and im pretty sure anyone looking for a working bred dog would only buy from working dogs.

All my dogs except the first (steep learning curve) have come from dogs that work. Wouldn't have it any other way.

Get involved with the moutain plains stock dog club. Or at least look for contacts through them. Or attend the finals coming up. They are in CArbondale CO.

Good luck and if you want working bred, buy from working dogs. Health tests are a whole nother matter. You'll have to figure out what is more important, guarantees or a nicely bred dog. Im not sure who offers both but you mau find someone who does. I just dont know of any. The people who sell quality dogs dont want poor representations out there but don't offer written guarantees that I know of.

[Maralynn]

You should be able to find a pup from working parents with health clearances. Personally, I think open communication with the breeder and looking at dogs they have produced in the past is better than a health guarantee. Some genetic issues don't appear by one y/o so a one year guarantee might not do much for you anyway. And networking (especially with the national finals nearby this year!) is the best way to find one. From my observation many working pups are sold becuase you know someone who has a litter, you know the dogs or you chat for a while and feel good about each other. So networking with your local working BC community will be your best bet at finding the breeder you feel good about even if they don't quite meet all the criteria.

[CMP]

Kristen - I'm from eastern Canada and I do NOT have any broad experience in the stock dog world despite being from a family that is "in the business".

 

I suppose its supply and demand and my experience is that working bred dogs are not surrendered to non working environments unless they do not make the cut for the work at hand. As I say, I am not a member of the broader BC world and don't know a gnat from a fly in that regard.

 

In any case, I can see why a person would want a working bred dog and I certainly hope one is found.

[Alchemist]

Breeders of ABCA-registered dogs, working bred, one or both parents working, who will sell to pet/agility/novice sheepdog homes with individuals who don't own their own sheep, certainly exist. But - you might not find that *both* parents are trialing Open. And you might not find all the heath tests are administered that you think are important. And you might not (probably WILL not) find a health guarantee, as others have said.

 

I did buy a working-bred pup with a full health guarantee (a close approximation of the puppy contract that the breeder and I both signed is available here). Parents both trialed Open and qualified for the Finals on numerous occasions. The breeder did insist on refunding the full purchase price (and also offered to replace the pup) when it developed joint issues. Nope, he was a member of our family by then, no way we'd part with him, so we settled for a refund of the purchase price. I certainly honor the breeder for insisting on their end of the contract - the epitome of a "responsible breeder". That being said - what you have to keep in mind is: how much IS that purchase price, compared to the cost of any surgery/PT that might be required? In our case the purchase price was only a small fraction of the vet bills we've incurred. I don't regret a moment of anything - he's a great dog, well worth all we invested in vet bills and PT. But it did give me pause for thought when I was looking for another dog: is a health guarantee a deal-breaker if its monetary value is small relative to potential future vet bills?

 

My most recent pup is also working-bred (all four grandparents have qualified for the Finals and some have run in the Double Lifts; his father currently trials Open, mother never really trialed much, but I trust the breeder when his assessment was that she has talent - she's now in a pet home and will probably never trial - but I LOVE her littermate, who I knew very well). But I didn't get any health guarantee. I'm good with that, given what I now know about how small its monetary value is compared to potential vet bills - I just got pet insurance from the time he was a puppy. I'm picking him up in a week from the person I sent him to for training, but I'm being told he could probably start to trial pro-novice (East coast style: outrun, lift, fetch, drive, no crossdrive, pen) after three months of training - something that the working-bred dog with a full health guarantee still can't do at five years of age. I may yet discover health issues. But the younger dog is well past the age where some health issues (such as shoulder OCD) should have manifested themselves.

 

All I'm saying is that you might want to rethink whether a health guarantee is a deal-breaker. As others have said, health guarantees are common in the (better) sporter collie breeders, and you may find them in a very few working Border collie breeders. Some sporter collie breeders may even claim "working ability", and as proof, will show photos on their website of a dog chasing sheep. Please don't mistake this for real "working ability". Speaking for myself, I'd drop "health guarantees" from my list of requirements. YMMV.

[chene]

I live in Western Canada, and started looking for a border collie puppy with no contacts at all in the herding world and no intention to work the dog on sheep. I did not experience much trouble with that. Although some breeders were only willing to sell to working homes, many, many others were happy as long as they assured themselves that I was a responsible owner. I too am unsure if it varies by region but I doubt it. There will always be good breeders willing to sell to non working homes.

[Lichen]

Falloe, I think your requirements are reasonable and very very smart. I am a certified vet tech, and I own a ABCA border collie I adopted 12 years ago. The breeders I spoke to DID health test before hand. When this dog passes, I will get another, and I will NOT buy a dog from a breeder who did not health test parents and pups. The reason is.. and I am speaking as a veterinary professional...you can spend money up front on a sound dog, or you can spend it down the line on medical bills. My dog has NEVER had a health issue. His parents and grandparents were all certified and tested. He came to me with ears, hips and eyes tested, microchipped, and with his pedigree papers all filled out for me. The breeder is a 3rd generation breeder, who travels often to the UK and imports the best dogs she can afford to bring home to her program. She teaches herding and has sheep on site. She does not breed for looks, only temperament and working ability. The vast majority of her dogs are bred to work. The little my boy came from was a littler of 7: 3 worked sheep, 2 cattle, 1 agility champ, and my boy is a housedog who dabbled in herding and agility. Although she was very picky about non-working homes, she did accept me - I had a blue heeler also, with whom I'd worked sheep and cattle. I knew what I was getting into with a working dog.

 

My point is, it's nonsense that you can't find great working dog breeders whose dogs are ABCA or imported, and test for health. They are out there, you just have to talk to people and research. My breeder still has a website but I'm not sure she still breeds - I have been unable to contact her by email. She is in her 60's so it may be a health issue. At any rate, the site does list a home address. http://www.bordercollieonline.com/contact.htm I would recommend her enthusiastically to anyone.

 

Also, I spoke with Jack and Kathy Knox out of MO at that time, and would also recommend them to anyone. If you contact them, they may be able to tell you who to contact for ABCA dogs health tested.

 

One word of caution. A breeder who "guarantees" health, is a breeder who pays you back for serious health issues. BUT that is not a guarantee the dogs are tested for genes. Please make certain that the parents are tested (before breeding) as that greatly decreases - or through generations, ELIMINATES - the chance of developing expensive problems that prohibit competitive ability and even life span. For me, a breeder who tests is a breeder who truly loves dogs and protects their well-being, even before birth.

[Crawford Dogs]

I think you're looking for the ultimate in a breeder and I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I'm looking for something pretty similar only without the health guarantee. I do expect a breeder to be honest in what's in the line however most genetic defects are polygenic so all the paper in the world won't really guarantee a healthy pup. My youngest Loki came with a health guarantee in the form of a handshake. I was told that if his hips or eyes had issues I could either get money back or a new puppy down the line AND I could keep my puppy if I wished. I was also told that she would buy back Loki at any age if for some reason I didn't want him. Loki's 4 yrs old now and I can't imagine a day without him. IMO He passed all his health screens (hips, elbows, eyes) and has a nice temperament.

 

Bethany

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Yep. Puppies are cute. That said, I have no idea why anyone would want one.

 

First: desirable working pups are hard to find when you want them. Almost all the Big Hats' pups will be spoken for (by aspiring Big Hats) a litter ahead. If you want health certs, contracts or guarantees, or a "breeder who'll ask all the right (by your lights) questions" nice ones won't be rude at first. Persist at your peril. They don't need you.

 

Second: There ain't no guarantees! Pups from sound working parents may develop epilepsy, dysplasia or Border Collie collapse. They may go deaf. Yes, you can minimize the risks but you cannot eliminate them. Should the breeder take back a pup whose health issue he could not predict and whose rearing (by you) he cannot control? Er . . .depends. Some (usually those who breed infrequently) will but those who have several litters a year may well decide that once a pup is sold, like a lamb or calf, it's SOLD.

 

Third: While it may be difficult to find a pup that meets all your requirements, it's fairly easy to find a sound, fairly mannerly adult Border Collie. With an adult what you see is what you get. No surprises, no hunting for the perfect breeder and, most Border Collie rescues will vet you far more seriously than many top breeders will. Oh; and you'll be doing a good thing.

 

Fourth: adults are cheaper. If your goal is a family pet, that rescue dog, retired working dog or working dog that didn't work out will cost you much less than you're willing to pay for a pup and you won't pay the routine vet bills and food costs a pup incurs in the year or 18 months before you can tell what sort of dog you have. Even if you want to end up with a trial winner, cheapest is bite the bullet and buy one.

 

Puppies are cute.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

It seems to me that you may have to wait longer for a bitch pup than a dog. Most of the leftovers seem to be dogs.

 

I agree with the last post, despite having just bought a pup. It's a one off that fits best with my personal circumstances just now.

 

I would only expect compensation from a breeder if I knew they had not been honest with me.

 

Both parents were clear for eyes, reasonable and even hip score for the sire that is a well used stud dog. I would have preferred the dam to have been hip scored but it doesn't concern me that she isn't given that she comes from a long line of their own breeding and has a track record of producing healthy pups, or so I'm told. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I will take it at face value.

 

As i think someone said earlier, if a breeder has a reputation to uphold it isn't in their interests to produce unsound pups.

 

My pup is called Risk. Stuff happens in life and I will accept what comes.

[juliepoudrier]

The reason is.. and I am speaking as a veterinary professional...you can spend money up front on a sound dog, or you can spend it down the line on medical bills. My dog has NEVER had a health issue. His parents and grandparents were all certified and tested. He came to me with ears, hips and eyes tested, microchipped, and with his pedigree papers all filled out for me.

 

Wow, as a veterinary professional you should know that there are NO GUARANTEES when it comes to genetics. That's not an argument for not testing, but since there are NO tests for some of the most devastating diseases in border collies (e.g., epilepsy), I find it odd that a veterinary professional would claim that testing up front will be a guarantee of no costly issues down the road.

 

I see that you also clarify testing to be eyes, hips, and ears. I think most working border collie breeders do those basic tests. What you won't find is a bunch of testing for other things--tests that are so commonly expected in the sport/conformation world.

 

My point is, it's nonsense that you can't find great working dog breeders whose dogs are ABCA or imported, and test for health. They are out there, you just have to talk to people and research.

 

Yes, they are out there. They just aren't testing for everything known to man. And most people should understand that you can breed two dogs with perfect hips and still get a dysplastic puppy. You can breed lines with no evidence of epilepsy or deafness and still produce a pup with epilepsy or deafness. Genes mutate and outside factors can trigger whether certain genes are expressed. No breeder is in control of all that. And as someone else noted (Donald maybe?), the breeder also has no control over what an owner does with a pup once they take it home. I have heard of pups developing OCD after being allowed to repeatedly jump up a tree branches or being allowed to leap off stairs. I have read studies that postulate that pups kept on slick surfaces (e.g., hardwood floors and similar) are more likely to have some flattening of the hip socket, which of course will appear as HD on a radiograph. So although a breeder might be held accountable for breeding dogs with a genetic tendency to OCD or HD (though I don't think there are tests for propensity), environment plays a factor as well. And if the breeder raises their dogs in such a way that the environment doesn't trigger any propensities, then who takes the responsibility when the owner FAILS to raise a pup sensibly?

 

One word of caution. A breeder who "guarantees" health, is a breeder who pays you back for serious health issues. BUT that is not a guarantee the dogs are tested for genes. Please make certain that the parents are tested (before breeding) as that greatly decreases - or through generations, ELIMINATES - the chance of developing expensive problems that prohibit competitive ability and even life span. For me, a breeder who tests is a breeder who truly loves dogs and protects their well-being, even before birth.

 

Genetic testing can certainly eliminate some issues, but not all. And I think most reasonable breeders (and scientists) would caution against completely breeding away from all genetic problems without a full understanding of how some of those genetics are related to working ability. There's a reason the ABCA Health and Genetics committee doesn't recommend not using a dog who is a CEA carrier, when we could in fact eliminate CEA entirely if we didn't breed anything but CEA clear dogs. Genetically perfect dogs with limited or no working ability are no better for the person who needs a working dog than those who have health problems.

 

JMO.

 

J.

[Mark Billadeau]

There's a reason the ABCA Health and Genetics committee doesn't recommend not using a dog who is a CEA carrier, when we could in fact eliminate CEA entirely if we didn't breed anything but CEA clear dogs. Genetically perfect dogs with limited or no working ability are no better for the person who needs a working dog than those who have health problems.

In addition to what Julie stated, there is a significant risk to the health of the gene pool (decreasing genetic diversity) by eliminating 25% (theoretical and DNA test data estimated CEA carrier rate) of the dogs from breeding.

 

By excluding a known genetic mutation one could be providing the right conditions (reduced genetic diversity) to increase the rate of an unidentified genetic mutation. Poor genetic diversity is the biggest health concern for most breeds.