9 month female snapping at dogs and kids

[Juju]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my second attempt at my first topic, I wrote a long informative post about 2 issues we are having with our pup and then lost it all through computer errors when trying to post it. So instead of rewriting it all again I thought I'd write a much shorter one with less detail just to see if the computer will let me post it & then expand more on it later.

 

So does anyone know what we can do to stop our sterilized 9month female border snapping at older, smaller, less confident dogs when they come into the house for their haircuts?

(I work from home running my own dog grooming business) River is well socialized with dogs and people but has just started this bad attitude (last 3 weeks) only towards very few dogs that come in. For this reason I can't trust her to be in the business with me and she stays outside most of my working hours. She is crate trained, has one crate in the living room..main one, and one in the business which she goes in quite a lot during the day (whilst in the room).

I am happy for her to stay outside, so is she as long as she has lasting entertainment, all hours while I work, but I like the idea of having her in with me, clients love her, but I know adolescence is kicking in and I wonder if she is being picky about who can or can't come in. Off lead in dog areas when these kind of dogs approach she is completely friendly and doesn't care less, which makes me think she thinks the business is her territory. Either that or a hierarchy issue.

If I was to keep her outdoors until adolescence passes do you think that is what she needs, Will she possibly 'grow out' of this?

What can I do to prevent it?

I have learnt her pupils dilate when she is about to snap and I growl at her & then she is fine, I will put her in her crate to prevent anything else. I don't trust my judgment every time, I might miss her signs

I don't believe she is being aggressive about it, more so trying to get a message across to the other dog.

 

 

Issue number 2 is snapping at kids when they move fast. If they are still and slow she is fine, not always fine if they go to pat her. We have no kids in our immediate family just furkids, but we see our nieces (4yrs & 2yrs) all the time, not to mention all our friends have around the same age kids. I feel this is her sheepdog coming out or like the older dogs previously mentioned a hierarchy thing. I don't feel she is being nasty or aggressive, more its just what she thinks she needs to do in this situation. Either way its not safe as she has got the skin a couple of times..no blood, yet. So we keep her on a lead and watch her like a hawk. We have told the nieces (as they are the ones who interact with her the most) not to move fast, or squeal around her and not to pat her. We encourage them to drop treats as they walk past her and also to offer treats palm out and flat with no eye contact and no pats, while watching like a hawk. We are hoping this teaches River kids are good to be around. But kids are kids...so unpredicatble

 

Can anyone suggest what else we can do in this situation?

If/when she matures will she understand better?

 

I would like her to be a dog who can interact safely with kids, yes, I do understand you should never trust a dog with kids etc, but hopefully you know what I mean.

 

I feel she gets what a border collie at her age needs. She excels in her obedience class, she enjoys making her own rules up in herding class, we have a mini agility couse set up in the back yard (nothing to big/high to damage joints), daily bush walks (Perth, WA), not to mention her never ending interest to learn new tricks and tasks.

 

Any input will be greatly appreciated. I hope this posts this time

 

Regards

Judith & River

[Joe Anne]

Hi Judith..... As a Mom of 3 Border Collies Wolf (Passed) 2 currently...Phoenix , almost 10 yr old male and Rose 15 months old Female, and a 6 y/o female Terrier Mix, and as a Professional Dog Trainer for over 20 yrs. my best advice is:

 

As I see it you have 2 choices...1. TRAINING METHOD:You can take the time , effort, patience possibly expense of a Professional Trainer and work on these issues with your dog. However, as I have experienced with my 3 BC's and with MANY other BC"s I have been around and know from our Herding Clinic and Trial history, I can tell you..just as us humans they are all individuals and their likes or dislikes are as varied as they are.

 

These dogs are so incredibly intelligent and head strong that it is sometimes a lifetime challenge raising them, but WELL WORTH IT IN THE LONG RUN! It is not about "keeping them busy", it is about proper supervision, discipline, love, and overall handling. BC's are in a class all their own in the dog world.

 

That being said, I would suggest this second option, unless you have the time and patience to work with your dog and VERY closely supervise all interactions and environments to avoid potential trouble (MOST ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO SMALL CHILDREN!!!) Which would be sad!

 

OR:

 

2. You can manage the situation. By this I mean not allowing the dog in situations that "may" end up with someone getting bitten or inadvertently setting your dog up for failure. When a dog (any dog), is not taught and disciplined or acknowledged in some way for their behavior (wanted OR unwanted).....IMMEDIATELY, they have just been in a sense rewarded for their behavior, by either nipping, biting, chasing or otherwise "controlling" what THEY feel needs to be controlled.

When you mentioned about really small children, this is exactly what will happen! I promise you that. You CAN NOT depend on children to not squeal, run, pat or otherwise "bother" a dog.

 

Of my 3 BC's, my pup Rose is the first one (so far), that is good with children other dogs and every situation/environment I have had her in. My 2 boys....1 was ok with kids, not other dogs, and Phoenix my current boy absolutely does not tolerate children or other dogs AT ALL (he struggles when we are at a Herding Clinic , but appears to tolerate "his kind" LOL! better than other breeds of dogs!!! Go figure!!!

 

Knowing your dog and not forcing the issue is the best way in my opinion to handle this situation. If the children are sitting down and closely supervised by adults, tossing treats is ok. LEARN your dogs body language ...RESPECT what your dog is telling you....if she does not appear happy around children and or other dogs OR
environments or goings on...DO NOT FORCE HER, OR PUT HER IN THAT SITUATION.

 

She will be much happier outside, in another location or in her crate.

 

Hope this helps somewhat...Good Luck (ps....you may want to consider finding a "traditional" herding trainer or clinics, that made a MAJOR difference in my Phoenix boy's attitude!!!! Go on these boards under "Clinics" and/or Sheepdog L for clinics and/or tainers.

[Juju]

Thanks Joe Anne,

 

Reading your post brought back lost of happy memories as last year we said good bye to our 9yr old male border collie also named Phoenix! He passed away to an aggressive form of Lymphoma it hit him so harshly and so suddenly. Unlike River, he was the most gentle, chilled out border I have ever met, friendly, good with all kids and dogs was happy to just do whatever. He would be 10 this year. RIP Pheofa x

 

River is a completly different ball game, a true challenge. We did get a behaviourist out for her early days around 3 months old, we were having major hirearchy issues, with her trying so hard to be the pack leader and she would become quite aggressive about it, also with her food guarding. We have since learnt new ways to deal and work with these particular issues and I feel confident saying she is almost 100% better in these situations.

 

We take her to Marionvale sheep herding in the perth hills www.marionvale.com/lessons.aspx If your interested.

We actually found he was much more help with her behaviour towards us than the behaviourist, who is extreamly good, she is well known in Perth but I think Simon knows his working does way better than she does.

 

For now we mostly keep her out of kid/neice situations (she is extremly good/friendly with children who come into the business with their dogs. I don't however take my chances and put her in her crate for the few minutes they are here) I do really want to work on this area but will always be reading her closley when both her and the neices are present. She is actually happy to be in the same room with them which is why I wonder if she is trying to herd them.

 

I will reaserch the clinics and trainers you mentioned.

 

Thank you for repling

[RemsMom]

I have to admit that I don't have any good advise as to the "how" of training your dog but since she is so young I really feel that you will be able to work with her through this. Get someone that will understand the issues you are having with her and will take you seriously.

 

I had a dog (not Border Collie) that had some major issues and I feel that if I had been able to address these issues at a young age I could have helped him. Unfortunately for me and my dog I kept getting trainers that thought my problem was I couldn't control my dog. He was a major hazard all of his life.

 

I am not trying to be pessimistic. It is just that if I could have gotten someone to take me seriously when I said I had issues with my dog I could have avoided a lot of problems.

[Joe Anne]

RemsMom.....As a Professional Dog Trainer I absolutely agree with you! you are so right.

 

It is not about controlling your dog! It is about learning each others body language, voice tonality and overall proper communication between the dog and the human.

 

So many times when I work with well meaning clients who love their dog and are good pet parents, they have no idea what is causing the behavior issues and how it can be corrected with proper communication skills. That is a biggy!

 

Behavior issues can be formed and influenced from so many different life situations from birth to senior dog. Of course some behaviors are physiological (medical) as well, which is why I ALWAYS require my clients to get a COMPLETE physical exam with blood work when having serious behavior issues with their dog, before I see them.

 

I spend a great deal of time with clients on learning Dog AND Human body language/communication ( between them). Sometimes it is so subtle that most people who do not work with or study dogs easily miss or misinterpret what their dog is trying to communicate, and BAM here comes the unwanted behavior !

 

That is a darn shame that you could not find a trainer that looked past the attitude that it was just "you could not control your dog" ! That is such OLD school! As a Trainer that saddens me greatly

[Juju]

Thanks Joe Anne and Remsmom for you help.

 

I really, more than anything, want to work on this behavior, however so far we have just had her locked outside when kids come over or on lead when sharing the same space. I know she's not trying to be aggressive towards them, I know she kind of likes them like she does everyone, but the minute they show interest, things change, her pupils dialate, I feels objects appear to move very quickly in her mind, and I feel, she feels she needs to take control of this situation. If that makes any sense, at all

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she is trying to get authority over them or plainly showing some super fast herding techniques on them. Either way its not acceptable in my books, but who wants to lend their small kids to us for behavior clarification?? Its not something you can just fix with a quick disapline or a time out.

 

I guess I was hoping for someone who has had a similar experience for them to share how they approached the situation..if there really is hope at the end of the tunnel. I believe there is.

 

River is a fast learner and she wants to please. But she also seems to learn well from her mistakes, and with kids around learning from her mistakes could eventually be a very bad idea, not something I want to mess with.

 

 

[GentleLake]

I really, more than anything, want to work on this behavior, however so far we have just had her locked outside when kids come over or on lead when sharing the same space.

 

I know she's not trying to be aggressive towards them, I know she kind of likes them like she does everyone, but the minute they show interest, things change, her pupils dialate, I feels objects appear to move very quickly in her mind, and I feel, she feels she needs to take control of this situation. If that makes any sense, at all

 

2 problems I see here:

 

First is that by putting her outside you're avoiding dealing with the situation and it's not going to end well because she won't be learning any alternative, acceptable behaviors when in those situations.

 

The second is that if her pupils are dilating she's not trying to take control of the situation; she's over threshold and pretty much no longer in control even of her own responses.

 

I'd suggest looking into some Click to Calm training and/or Dr. Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation. Information on both can be found on the web.

 

Border collies often become very overstimulated by children's activity. It's a very common reason for them to be relinquished to rescue or dumped at shelters. It's something you need to work with now rather than later.

 

I'd recommend finding a good positive reinforcement trainer to help you with these issues, Classes would be good, but it might be a better idea to have a few private sessions in your home.

[Sue R]

^{What Gentle Lake said. Avoiding the problem is not working on the problem. It is a form of management but not a form that produces a lasting change.}

[RemsMom]

There are places to let your puppy see children without having to worry about interacting with them. Lots of playgrounds, ball parks, and pools are fenced and in the summer are usually well attended. When my German Shepherd was young I used to take him to the pool and we would walk around the outside. My GSD was good with children (my daughter was five when we got him) but tended to get too excited and I wanted to train him to be calm with the noise and activity of a group of children. We worked on keeping him calm as we got closer to the fence. He is now seven years old and will often lie down and look bored when encountering a bunch of busy and loud children. I often get compliments on how calm he is.

 

Sorry that I am no help with the actual training. I hope you can get the help you need. Your puppy is young and I really think you can work through this.

[Shetlander]

I agree with GentleLake and Sue R. Management is a very helpful tool, but there is a saying, "Management always fails." Eventually, people get distracted, a dog gets loose, surprise visitors arrive, a child doesn't listen to directions and says hi to the crated doggie, etc. That is where training comes in and will put you in good stead for the dog's life.

 

But while working on these issues, please do use management to keep your dog and others safe, plus not allowing your girl to practice unwanted behaviors. I second the suggestion of finding a good, reinforcement based trainer and think a private consult or lessons would be invaluable. I have used Click to Calm with much success. Many on these boards swear by Control Unleashed, especially the easier to follow puppy version.

 

Good luck!

[GentleLake]

But while working on these issues, please do use management to keep your dog and others safe, plus not allowing your girl to practice unwanted behaviors.

 

Absolutely. Definitely didn't mean to leave that out.

 

Best wishes getting your girl over this.

[Sue R]

And, yes, I did not mean to mislead - I am all for management as part of the plan to deal with issues. In fact, I have an issue with Celt with regards to how he views Dan in certain situations, that I have not managed to resolve. I use a combination of management (there are generally only two adults In the household, so that minimizes the opportunity for failure although it certainly doesn't remove all opportunity) and training. While my training efforts have not eliminated the problem, they have reduced it so that, combined with management, has helped us avoid a confrontation for quite some time. However, any confrontation there has been, has been due to a lapse in management, which is precisely what Liz said with her quote and Roxanne agreed to.

[Sue R]

As for the original question, I think your dog's age (a fear period age), the breed's propensity to react to noises and movements (and children are unpredictable, erratic, high-pitched, and high-activity), and the fact that many dogs do not seem to "recognize" children as people, all can contribute to this.

 

For my few dogs that either as adults or youngsters were shy with, mistrusting of, or wanting to "control" children, I have found the best approach is to allow them to find out that children are a source of good things. In some situations, that might involve treats but not in this situation where snapping is already an issue. In some situations, that might involve dog toys and play - but with care because something like tug (if your dog loves to tug) might be a bad initial choice (again, teeth).

 

What we did use was the Chuck-It. Our dogs *love* playing ball. It is something that is so obsessive that they don't focus on anything else, like thunder or gunshots or the age of the person using the Chuck-It. The use of the Chuck-It also means that the child is never touching the ball that the dog might want to grab. With the children having accustomed the dogs to playing with them with the Chuck-It, we graduated to being able to play with a hand-thrown ball and a tug toy, at least for the dogs that like the children.

 

For the one that is still less comfortable, he is now able to be around them without anxiety or trying to control their movements, maybe largely because he is observing the other dogs interacting in a fun way with the kids. While he will not go up to a strange child on his own, he is now comfortable being in a stranger's presence. He may give them a bit of a berth when walking by but if a child is appropriate, he will now go over and sniff the child and allow a pet under the chin if I am talking to the child.

 

This is one of those "baby steps" desensitization issues, and many dogs will never be the child-loving dog that two of mine are, but at least you can work to make your dog safe around children. Of course, adult supervision is always a must.

[GentleLake]

I don't believe for a minute that dogs don't understand that kids are people or that they don't understand that they're juvenile people. For one thing I give them more credit that that; they're just not that, well, stupid or unaware. I've seen way too many dogs tone down their behavior around small children and children with developmental disabilities to believe they're not fully aware of children being people who are not only small but who need special consideration. (Doing therapy work with my dogs I also see many who will adjust their behavior for frail and/or unsteady elderly and disabled folks as well.)

 

I do think, however, that many dogs -- and many border collies in particular -- don't feel comfortable around kids, probably because they often behave unpredictably. Bodhi is rock steady and likes kids, but I can tell by his body language that he's wary of the whirling dervishes many kids can become.

 

And, as I mentioned before, border collies (and sometimes other herding breeds) become way overstimulated by children's activity. It's not all that different from seeing a young dog (i.e. one that's not completely confident in her or his ability to control the sheep) working flighty sheep and all hell breaking loose because they don't know how to handle the situation.

 

I think that's most likely what's happened here with the OP's dog. But with the dilated pupils it's gone beyond just being overstimulated, which means it's going to be a more involved prospect to desensitize the dog to children . . . and it also means that it's even more important undertake the work to do it because the dog isn't in full control of her behavior.

[Juju]

Thanks again everyone for your different opinions. I have taken them all on board. It does make it harder that we don't & probably won't have kids of own own, but we have heaps of small kids in our life not to mention kid friendly parks & schools in our neighborhood. Our neices we see all the time & are the ones we will be able to do more one on one work with. I was thinking of taking River for a walk to the park and have the neices accompany us. The chuck-it is a really good idea, I think I will get one tomorrow. We regularly walk past the primary school when schools just out and kids & their families will ask to pat her. These situations are completely different. She is relaxed and seriously happy to be meeting people. I keep her on a tight lead & keep watching her face for any signs of distress, I only keep these meetings short and sweet (a few seconds). I think these meetings are good for her. When we pass the part of the school with the playground behind wire fences; we've got kids running & screaming, chasing eachother..being kids, River is still happy to watch them but also switched on and very alert. If there was no fence & she was off lead I know she would be in there terrorising some how. I know we have a long road ahead of us, but I am prepared to make it work & to put the time in.

Thanx everyone!!