Leash Training: the hardest task so far.

[deadlywarbler]

I have had a pretty solid grasp on all the elements of my BC's training so far, but the leash, I admit, has me baffled. I started her really early on a local bike path learning to walk on leash. I followed the guidelines of the "red light, green light" technique and rewarded calm walking without pulling. She would show some signs of excitement at first, but eventually would fall right in line. It was awesome!

 

Now, though, she's become almost unstoppable and I'm trying to figure out where I let the training slack off. Most of the walks I take with her now last far longer than they would normally because of all the "red lights". So I need some help. I'll describe how the sessions go.

 

As we get going walking, she will go hard agains the leash (as if it wasn't there) and I immediately stop using my fingers to pad the tension so as to not have it yank her to a stop, but so that she can feel that she has brought the leash tight. I sit and wait. She generally keeps looking forward. Lately she will look back at me and sometimes will even turn and jump back into heal position (which I had taught her months before) This gets a treat as a reward. As soon as I take even a small step forward she launches forward to the end of the leash at which point the whole cycle continues. So I try to keep her eyes fixed on me as I take my step forward with either a treat or a ball, but it generally doesn't work.

 

So my concerns are that the tension on the leash isn't telling her something that she is doing, but rather something that I am doing. I imagine her confusion at her owner who can't seem to figure out whether to walk forward or stand still when what I want her to think is "oh, I pulled the leash tight and that stopped the walk...oh, I loosened the leash and away we went." Does anyone have any specific techniques that might change this up a little?

 

My other overarching concern is that she's not really listening to me and not attuned to me during walks. She is in most other instances except these times. ( though I admit her recall is pretty sloppy, but we'll save that challenge for another post) What I want is for her to be mindful of my movements rather than where she wants to go. I'm sure it's a process to get here, but I am curious on people's thoughts and experiences with this too. She's 8 months old, by the way. =)

[Lizabeth]

When Gidget first came to us she had obviously never had much leash training at all. Between chewing on the leash, pulling, twisting me around arm yanking and you name it oh goodness it was bad stuff

 

What I did may sound like a pain and yes it was a huge pain

 

With a little pooch with a long strap over my neck and shoulder filled with hot dogs all cut up we would head out the door. That alone was a scarry situation teaching her to wait and not drag me down the stairs. so this is where I started. Sit Stay give a treat. if she tried to run down the stairs or pull, come sit stay treat over and over. It would take me forever to get down the 3 stairs from the kitchen door. Then was the walk to the drive way, over and over come, sit, stay, treat. next was the walk down the drive, over and over. I think the neighbors got quite a kick out of it lol. we would do this through the entire walk, any pulling and back to come sit stay and treat given. It was not fun for neither of us, trying to walk 10 steps took us forever, but you know she has figured it out, I notice now she will look back to see how much distance we have between us.

 

Oh and another thing maybe this was bad but I quit walking her with that short leash! I use a very very long leash that i can bunch up as needed and give slack as needed. Had a retractable worked great for about a week until she broke it lol.

 

We still work on the come sit stay on walks. For no reason I will just tell her to come, she comes rite to me, we work with stay a bit where I walk around her or a step or two ahead of her, she hates for me to move when shes in stay she wants to follow so we work on that. I hope this helps it has worked wonders for Gidget she walks so good now, and when she is super excited we go through that come sit stay over and over tell she is ready, I dont grumble at her I just do it like it is the natural thing to do.

 

Also when i end up in a situation where leash is on one hand and dog is wrapping the leash, I just turn around and undo it with out any problems. if that makes sense? I have even had success walking 2 dogs at a time though boy thats a work out lol keeping them from getting tangled its like walking a couple silly geese lol

[CurlyQ]

I've always trained my dogs to walk with me one way, and it's never failed before. Whenever my dog charges ahead, I walk in the opposite direction. If you keep walking in the opposite direction every time your dog pulls, eventually it learns that tugging only gets the opposite of what's wanted. You might want to add a command with this, such as "follow" or "let's go".

 

Another thread with a similar subject:

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=36740

[Zorro13]

I'm right there with you. I started as soon as I got him and was making some good progress, then over time it just seemed like he started getting worse and worse. It's been frustrating because like you I feel I've done well teaching every other behavior/trick he knows. About a month ago I decided to pretty much start from the beginning. Here's what I've done and it's been showing some progress.

 

- I did a week of walks just in the yard to reduce the environmental stimulation and really show him what I want on the leash.

- Close to 100% reward for looking back/making eye contact. I plan to reduce this very slowly.

- Frequent direction changes to keep him paying attention to me. Running away from him when he wasn't looking was something that really helped his off leash skills so I've been trying to apply that concept to the leash.

- Red light/green light. I now use the leash in the link below that I can tie around my waist which has helped stop his forward progress as soon as I stop. I noticed that often times he was getting to the thing he wanted because my hands moved forward a bit when he yanked on the leash.

- Stopping and having him sit frequently.

- Sniffing trees/etc on command as opposed him pulling over on his own.

 

Good luck and let me know if you do something that works! I'm all ears to get this thing figured out!

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kurgo-Quantum-Dog-Leash-Black/dp/B003NSCCMA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403456797&sr=8-1&keywords=quantum+leash

[bcnewe2]

How bout a correction? Sounds like she isn't getting the correct message what you don't want her to do.

My dogs learn things in a day or less, I have no problem letting them know when they are wrong. We might have to revisit something like not pulling on a leash but they are quick to not want to do something wrong.

 

You don't have to beat a dog to correct it. but geesh...a stern NO- KNOCK IT OFF or a yank on the leash and there isn't really any message they aren't understanding with that.

[Nathan]

How bout a correction? Sounds like she isn't getting the correct message what you don't want her to do.

My dogs learn things in a day or less, I have no problem letting them know when they are wrong. We might have to revisit something like not pulling on a leash but they are quick to not want to do something wrong.

 

You don't have to beat a dog to correct it. but geesh...a stern NO- KNOCK IT OFF or a yank on the leash and there isn't really any message they aren't understanding with that.

You must have one of the most well behaved dogs out there, bc this tactic DOES NOT work for me, and I don't think I've ever seen it work. I feel for the original poster bc a walk w your dog is a wonderful thing and can be so rewarding. A chance to have your dog on display, and know the comfort of having your companion right there by your side.

[bcnewe2]

Well gosh Nathan thanks. I have 3 very well behaved border collies. And I can walk all 3 on separate leashes at one time with no problems. And I have a youngster in that mix.

 

All positive training is a very long road to wander. I personally believe in a more varied training method. I also work my dogs on livestock. That is also somewhere you can't rely on positive only methods.

Again, I'm not saying beat or abuse the dog but letting the dog know when it's wrong is easier and quicker IMO than only positive information.

But I'm sure you will find all kinds of advise. Just making a statement and saying what has worked for me.

 

Boy have the boards changed in the last year. All fuzzy and warm.....

[deadlywarbler]

Well gosh Nathan thanks. I have 3 very well behaved border collies. And I can walk all 3 on separate leashes at one time with no problems. And I have a youngster in that mix.

 

All positive training is a very long road to wander. I personally believe in a more varied training method. I also work my dogs on livestock. That is also somewhere you can't rely on positive only methods.

Again, I'm not saying beat or abuse the dog but letting the dog know when it's wrong is easier and quicker IMO than only positive information.

But I'm sure you will find all kinds of advise. Just making a statement and saying what has worked for me.

 

Boy have the boards changed in the last year. All fuzzy and warm.....

Thanks everyone. I have tried correction with her while we are walking. I tried a few different things from constantly using something like "whoops!" every time she pulls the leash tight to a gruff "ahhh!" every time. I feel like this just makes her a little more confused. I have seen her get totally deflated looking from sessions like that, so I have steered away from it. I am certain the problem lies with me not with her, so I really don't see a need to correct her on a casual walk.

 

My inexperienced perception is that a livestock situation is much more of a critical situation in which the health of stock, dogs and handlers are at hand. Harsher corrections like loud commands or flag snapping make more sense to me in these situations because the dog is more charged and they can get the sense of the urgency of the situation. I wouldn't want to bring that into a casual walking setting where the dog might start to see walks as urgent situations. Tell me if I'm wrong here.

 

I realize I am actually heading toward asking a lot of my BC. I am asking her to be a fast, determined athlete, a strong worker but then also a casual and well behaved leash walker and park dog. I'm certain she is up for it, but I feel that it will take her some time to get comfortable with the many hats I am going to ask her to wear.

[Camden's Mom]

All positive training is a very long road to wander. I personally believe in a more varied training method. I also work my dogs on livestock. That is also somewhere you can't rely on positive only methods.

 

Funny thing is I wandered that road for the first year+ of my pups life. I think it's a good path to take personally, not only for a young pup but also for a dog that is sensitive. If my boy had been a more stubborn or willful type it might have been a different story...

 

Then we started training him on stock and when the trainer would give any sort of correction my boy would just shut down and run back to me at the fence line. My trainer (being the fantastic handler she is) significantly adjusted her pressure but she implored me to start giving him some corrections at home. I did this (gradually so as not to completely confuse the poor pup) and he learned that a correction was not the end of the world, it just meant he was doing something wrong and needed to try to go about it a different way. I still prefer to throw a correction into the positive reinforcement mix. Example: Dog is pulling on leash, I stop moving and give an "ah-aaah" and let the dog reset to my side. If dog continues to pull on leash I give a harder "NO pulling" or "knock it off!" and let the dog reset to my side. Once the dog walks nicely it's all "goooood boy, yes, good boy" and maybe even a treat.

 

I prefer the positive approach, hands down, but just wanted to agree that clear and understandable corrections aren't all bad.

 

I also wanted to sympathize with the OP. My boy just turned two years old last week... He gets a minimum of one on-leash walk a day and has since we got him at 10 weeks. In all that time I can count on one hand the number of walks in which I did not need to remind him to stop pulling on the leash. It's frustrating and you can feel like you aren't getting anywhere but I think back to how he was on leash a year ago and there's no doubt he's gotten better. On our familiar neighborhood walks he's pretty darn good but in a new environment he loses a lot of his self control and it feels like I'm walking my one year old again. I try not to completely lose hope but I feel your frustration... the relapses can be extremely discouraging.

[gonetotervs]

Shirley Chong has a very clear layout on her website on how to teach loose leash walking by teaching a dog to give into leash pressure. It took a while, but has worked with my border collies (please don't ask about the borderjack!).

With my Terv youngster, I am using an easy walk harness to back me up should we encounter "SQUIRRELS!!!" on our various walks.

Having raised adolescents of two species, they pretty much all suffer from intermittent hearing loss, ADHD, and early-onset memory malfunctions at various points in their development. There are exceptions but for the most part, this is absolutely normal. I have no objection to a verbal correction or physical restraint as needed, but really prefer training methods that focus on getting the preferred outcome vs being punitive. One of the things I stick to is that I don't give a correction unless I am CERTAIN the dog knows its job. With a youngster in la-la land, I'm never sure how much they have learned both focus and generalization. I can teach that, but my teaching depends on my time available and the restoration of brain function in an adolescent dog. Meanwhile $20 on a walking harness preserves both our sanities going out, and, once the hibbie-jibbies have worn off, I can train loose-leash walking again, reverting to the harness should cats, motorcycles, skateboards or SQUIRRELS again impair brain functioning.

 

Control Unleashed for puppies also has a bunch of lovely exercises to improve brain functioning for youngsters presented with things that blow their minds.

[deadlywarbler]

Funny thing is I wandered that road for the first year+ of my pups life. I think it's a good path to take personally, not only for a young pup but also for a dog that is sensitive. If my boy had been a more stubborn or willful type it might have been a different story...

 

Then we started training him on stock and when the trainer would give any sort of correction my boy would just shut down and run back to me at the fence line. My trainer (being the fantastic handler she is) significantly adjusted her pressure but she implored me to start giving him some corrections at home. I did this (gradually so as not to completely confuse the poor pup) and he learned that a correction was not the end of the world, it just meant he was doing something wrong and needed to try to go about it a different way. I still prefer to throw a correction into the positive reinforcement mix. Example: Dog is pulling on leash, I stop moving and give an "ah-aaah" and let the dog reset to my side. If dog continues to pull on leash I give a harder "NO pulling" or "knock it off!" and let the dog reset to my side. Once the dog walks nicely it's all "goooood boy, yes, good boy" and maybe even a treat.

 

I prefer the positive approach, hands down, but just wanted to agree that clear and understandable corrections aren't all bad.

 

I also wanted to sympathize with the OP. My boy just turned two years old last week... He gets a minimum of one on-leash walk a day and has since we got him at 10 weeks. In all that time I can count on one hand the number of walks in which I did not need to remind him to stop pulling on the leash. It's frustrating and you can feel like you aren't getting anywhere but I think back to how he was on leash a year ago and there's no doubt he's gotten better. On our familiar neighborhood walks he's pretty darn good but in a new environment he loses a lot of his self control and it feels like I'm walking my one year old again. I try not to completely lose hope but I feel your frustration... the relapses can be extremely discouraging.

Ok, this makes sense to me. I hadn't thought about getting her used to correction. I think I might start slowly using this in her day to day so she learns that it isn't so bad and I still won't ever hurt her.

 

I feel like I just need to stay consistent with her. I feel like the only relapses we are having is when I get frustrated and that is when the training regresses. So there is my big crux.

[Camden's Mom]

Ok, this makes sense to me. I hadn't thought about getting her used to correction. I think I might start slowly using this in her day to day so she learns that it isn't so bad and I still won't ever hurt her.

 

I feel like I just need to stay consistent with her. I feel like the only relapses we are having is when I get frustrated and that is when the training regresses. So there is my big crux.

 

FWIW I do believe it's entirely up to you if you want to use corrections or not. I just wanted to give a different perspective to illustrate that the word "correction" doesn't necessarily translate to bad, cruel or mean.

 

I will add then when I first started to introduce corrections at my trainers requests I actually did it during playtime. It might sound counterintuitive, but it actually meant there wasn't a whole lot on the line and we could always end on a really high note. There's not a lot of reward in teaching loose leash walking so I didn't want to start with something too hard or tedious. So I'd start to ask for behaviors while we played fetch (something I've always done anyways). I'd only ask for things that I knew he knew, so as not to cause confusion. If he did not perform the behavior correctly or in a timely manner I'd give a hard verbal correction at which point he'd reliably follow my instruction. Then I threw a freakin' party praising the heck out of him, throwing the ball and just assuring him he'd done a really great job by making the right decision. I wanted to "sprinkle" corrections into his life. It wouldn't have been fair to him to go from 100% positive reenforcement to lots of verbal correction overnight so I tried to make the transition as smooth as possible. And, to be clear, I did this because I wanted him to be able to take corrections while training on stock without shutting down. I can't say for certain if I'd have done it otherwise but I really don't regret it at all. It's been great for him regarding his lessons and I've been able to correct him on other things on occasion without him thinking the world was about to implode...

[Nathan]

BCnew... I don't disagree. I believe sometimes our dogs need a correction, need to be reminded to listen, and so on. It just isn't that simple for me and my shepherd on walks. I wish it was, I'm kind of like Camden's mom, in that I'm always working on our leash walking. Wish I was better at this and had a better handle on it like you seem to be.

 

Just giving my experiences...

[bcnewe2]

Personally I think you need to think like a dog, not like a "parent". Clear messages instead of worrying about the dogs feelings. They respond to what we do, not what we think.

If you aren't clear with your information it comes off to the dog like nit picking. You can end up hardening your dog instead of clear instructions.

I love my dogs dearly, they live in the house with me. But they also know what is clearly expected of them. Which I think is the key. Some might call it respect. But if you don't teach it right off the bat they don't understand in high stress situations either.

Leash walking is as important as working a dog on stock. Being able to control your dog when the situation is not always calm or collected is what we're after. If my dogs listen when working stock they will listen when not working stock.

As Camden's Mom mentions, not teaching your dog to take pressure doesn't help in most high stress situations. And sometimes it is those times that can really get our dogs in trouble. Leash or stock.

[G. Festerling]

Camden's Mom is very wise. And so is Kristen!

 

 

I always tell my riding students....train for things to go wrong. Which means, make sure your horse know what to do with a correction. And to ensure that, you introduce them during "good times".

 

One of my German Shepherds loves, loves, loves a pinch collar..... How you ask? Simple. We paired the pinch with a treat, in preparation for possible corrections. Since we quit the training in the direction we were going (not methods but trainer) this was never an issue. But for her ob work, a tiny little bump on the pinch brought a treat. This has resulted in a dog that gets all kinds of animated when you bump her with the pinch. Which I only do anymore to show people that pairing is a super interesting subject.

 

Also, my stockdog trainer made a comment about my dog not being a team player in our last session. I said: "Why yes, I know!" After all, this is my second, mostly positive trained dog. Focus on her engaging me to the point of extremes. Because I love to play around with things. Her finding what it is that gets her attention, treats, toys. The lines of who the boss is are not clearly defined. She is well behaved, she listens, and a joy for me to be around. But it is time to drop the news that I do over ride her when it comes to stock and that waiting for me to actually give her a command may not be a bad thing.

 

Also, when using the old change directions method (which oh my, it is a method used by Koehler) you need to be aware of the fact that part of the idea is to stun the dog enough that he finds it in his best interest to keep an eye or ear on you to not get himself in trouble. It works wonderfully.

 

I believe in balanced methods. I know the value of positive. I know what my reservations are with any method. It is my job. But it is also my job to teach the basic behavior first which is done many different ways and then to go from there.

[simba]

I use a poke in the rump with a book or a boot for the big dog. She is less affected by it than a stern 'no' and she seems to understand it better. It's about the same force as a tap on the shoulder for a friend who isn't paying attention.

 

Red light green light is difficult because I'm usually walking 2 or 3 dogs. It seemed to frustrate them a lot, too, when I could do it because usually the other dogs are being walked by other people and getting further away from us. Then the dog feels she has to throw herself at the end of the lead to catch up, and then the human decides to stop again for no discernible reason.

[Camden's Mom]

you need to be aware of the fact that part of the idea is to stun the dog enough that he finds it in his best interest to keep an eye or ear on you to not get himself in trouble. It works wonderfully.

 

This is very interesting as just a few weeks ago his herding instructor applied this very tactic!! Camden was being spacey before going into the pasture with her (not doing anything wrong, per se, but far too distracted) and so she just started throwing hard corrections at him "knock it off!"" what are you thinking?!?" "pay attention!". He was startled and you could see the gears turning in his head; "omg, what the hell did I do to get this lady so upset at me!?!?". He didn't shut down at all but instead he paid extremely close attention to her for the rest of the session, and I'm talking total and complete focus. He didn't know why he'd been yelled at earlier but he sure wasn't gonna upset her again. I was a bit awe struck by the interaction and I was also very proud of him; he took the corrections in stride, regained focus and had a very productive lesson that day.

 

And, per the topic of corrections, if she'd tried that tactic with him a year ago he'd have peed everywhere, rolled onto his back and completely shut down.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I think it is very difficult to understand your dog one way and change that understanding. The behaviorist/positive Border Collie (nurture) simply isn't the sheepdogger's Border Collie (nature). While my dichotomy is overly, even stupidly broad, it helps explain why so many decent, intelligent trainers disagree so vehemently.

 

My dogs don't pull on the leash because my dogs don't pull on leashes and I often have two on one leash - occasionally on jampacked urban sidewalks. On the rare occasions I've borrowed a leash pulling dog, I tell them to stop doing that as emphatically as necessary and they quit pulling on the leash. At Jack Knox clinics, Jack sometimes says, "If you can't control your dog away from sheep, how can you expect to control him on sheep?" In Jack's hands, leash pullers become non-pullers in less than a minute and no, he doesn't abuse the dog.

 

That said: I suspect that once you accept the behaviorist belief system, trying to use a sheepdogger technique to cure one misbehavior would profoundly confuse both owner and dog.

 

Donald McCaig

[bcnewe2]

That said: I suspect that once you accept the behaviorist belief system, trying to use a sheepdogger technique to cure one misbehavior would profoundly confuse both owner and dog.

Or open up a whole new way of looking at dog training.

[painted_ponies]

I don't know. See that angelic looking little face in my avatar? That would be she-who-will-not-be-leashed. Damnedest thing. She's not a bad dog. She has a recall; a sit; a down. Now seven, she actually instructs newbies to my pack on how to be good farm/house dogs.

 

But leash walk her? nope.

 

In my half-century on the planet, I've trained way more dogs to walk on lead than I can count. I've taught maybe a half-dozen horses to lead nicely. But not our Faith. S'ain't happenin'. She has not been traumatized. I've had her since she was a tiny puppy. (She's traumatized me a time or two, but that's another story or twelve.)

 

I took her to a Jack Knox clinic at Julie's once, years ago. He thanked me for bringing her, since it made everyone else so much less embarrassed about her/his own dog. But after two days, he suggested maybe I take her home and get a handle on her before taking her back to sheep.

 

Anyway, OP, not to discourage you. Just to say that well, sometimes these things happen. I just stopped putting a leash on mine - but then I live in outer East Jesus so I can do that. Do you have alternatives?

[G. Festerling]

Well, as far as war stories go.....I sent one of my dogs off for 30 days when he super out gunned me. He was super coming home. But leash??? Never!!! Off lead? A dream!!!

[HJTRAS]

The leash has been an issue as well for me. I just don't think BC work well with a leash, So I made a rope with a loop on it. She grabs it and doesn't let go. so I walk her around that way and she is happy. Its kinda a leash so you could do that and have a leash attached that is no longer an issue.

[GentleLake]

Border collies are no worse on leashes than other breeds. It's a matter of training.

 

Allowing your pup to grab onto the leash -- or rope or whatever you want to call it; it's still a leash -- is ignoring the issue and setting yourself up for some difficult walking situations down the line.

 

ETA: Allowing your puppy to get away with things that are cute or amusing or whatever but that you wont be happy when it does it later on as an adult is an excellent way to create a very ill mannered dog.

 

This is true of any breed, but you'll find it especially so of border collies. They learn very quickly what they can and can't get away with, and if you let them get away with something once or twice, there's a good chance you'll end up with a dog that won't listen to you consistently, or is confused and unruly.

 

Best to stop this behavior now and spend some time working on leash manners now before you've created a monster.

[Root Beer]

For the benefit of those who want to go +R with this, I would like to share a couple of things that I am finding to be very helpful as I leash train my new puppy.

First, when I want to just walk him without worrying about whether he is pulling or not, especially when we are out and about with all three dogs and I am not going to focus just on his leash skills, I am using a regular back-clip harness. The harness means "at ease". He can go to the end and "ride" the leash if he wants to when he is on the harness. When I am working with him on loose leash walking, I switch the leash to his collar (or I don't have the harness on him). Leash on collar means the leash is loose.

This is clear to both of us, he's getting it very nicely, and it gives me the freedom to work specifically on the behavior when I want to, and to let him be "at ease" when I'm not.

Another tip that I was given that I plan to begin to employ very soon is to work on loose leash walking with the dog on a long line. That changes the focus from "loose leash" to "walk in proximity". When he learns to stay within a six food radius of me when we are walking together (unless he has been released), we can easily transition to a six foot leash and it will remain loose. Only after he can stay within proximity to me as we walk together with him on a long line (obviously we will work this in places where it is safe to do so like the yard or the woods) will I begin to focus on him choosing to remain in that proximity on a six foot leash on regular walks (in the meantime, we use the harness.

We are also working the J-leash protocol in training.

[deadlywarbler]

Thanks everyone, I've been following this conversation fairly quietly since listening is really all I need right now. I hear a lot of different perspectives. I like the idea of "sprinkling" a bit more heavy correction into her day to day so she learns to differentiate more critical situations from less. For instance, she loves to bolt out of the car. I make her wait until I say so, but when I do say "ok" she launches, so I am ready with leash on her to catch her before she goes into the road. This is not ok with me, so I make the leash pressure a "dead stop" and give her a stern "what are you doing??" Not sure it's sunk in yet, but I want leash walking to be of equal critical stature without putting her on "guard" thinking something is wrong. It's tricky. Deep down I still feel like the positive route is going to yield the best results, but I am not opposed to being stern with her. Anyway, I'm going to go back to listening now because you all have a lot of valuable insight to inject.

 

 

Anyway, OP, not to discourage you. Just to say that well, sometimes these things happen. I just stopped putting a leash on mine - but then I live in outer East Jesus so I can do that. Do you have alternatives?

And in response to this, I do have off-leash alternatives around here, but I am trying to avoid too much of that so she can learn that when the leash clips on its chill time. She gets plenty of off-leash running and ball chasing!