Leash Training: the hardest task so far.

[Root Beer]

I make her wait until I say so, but when I do say "ok" she launches, so I am ready with leash on her to catch her before she goes into the road. This is not ok with me, so I make the leash pressure a "dead stop" and give her a stern "what are you doing??" Not sure it's sunk in yet,

 

I don't mean to nitpick, but this doesn't make sense, if you think about it! You are telling her "OK". Do you use that as a general release word, or have you taught her that "OK" means "jump out and wait"? If you use "OK" as a release, you are releasing her and then reprimanding her for releasing. It sounds to me, in this instance, that what she is doing is exactly what you have told her to do!

 

I see this a lot with people who teach their dogs to sit and wait at the door. They cue a sit-stay, open the door, and then release the dog and they practically get pulled over as the dog bolts out the door. Well . . . the handler gave a release and the dog released! Many people don't ever make a deliberate effort to actually teach the dog what to do after going through the door! I think many just don't even think about doing that. I actually teach that first and put in the wait at the door after the dog knows what to do when he or she gets to the other side! (I know, this is not the same, but it is actually quite similar)

 

My choice for car exits has been to teach my dogs to get out of the car and wait. I will call each dog out of the car by name (since I use my dog's name to call him or her to me, not to release) and then cue "wait" as his or her feet hit the ground. I have done this so often that it's pretty much a default by now when we are out and about. At home, I do give a release since they run right from the car to the gate right in our own driveway.

 

Just some food for thought.

[Camden's Mom]

Root Beer makes an excellent point. I found myself in the same situation (releasing dog from door/car/crate/whatever to have him burst through like a maniac). My solution was to get his attention as soon as he burst through and when he turned around to face me I'd have a treat in hand and pop it right into his mouth. He soon started going through doors and instantly turning right around to face me. I mostly phased the treat out, although he still gets one once in a blue moon for reinforcement. This approach has worked wonders for us. Either way you go about it you should reach the same end goal that Root Beer described above.

 

With regards to general handling: FWIW, I started with firmer tactics (Dog Whisperer type stuff... I know... with a puppy no less... embarrassing to admit but I was ((am?)) a huge newb). When I found positive reinforcement style training pretty early on it was a godsend. I stuck firmly with the positive reinforcement for a long time and I'm glad I did. For a novice dog owner I think it was best for Camden and I. As I became exposed to, and able to observe first hand, sheepdoggers and their way of training I started to implement some of those approaches into my handling repertoire. I have no doubt my own handling skills will continue to morph as I learn more.

 

I'm sure my dog is confused some of the time... I know I'm confused most of the time. I guess I've come to terms with the fact that poor Camden is a guinea pig and will have to suffer all of my rookie mistakes. I do my best, which I know is not good enough, and frankly he takes it all in stride. He's more patient with me then he has any right to be.

 

I'm sure you and your girl will find your way as well. It's obvious how much you care for her and have her best interests at heart. Enjoy the journey... it's a wild ride but (at least for me) it's been unlike any other experience in my life.

[Root Beer]

I found myself in the same situation (releasing dog from door/car/crate/whatever to have him burst through like a maniac). My solution was to get his attention as soon as he burst through and when he turned around to face me I'd have a treat in hand and pop it right into his mouth. He soon started going through doors and instantly turning right around to face me. I mostly phased the treat out, although he still gets one once in a blue moon for reinforcement. This approach has worked wonders for us.

 

This is what I do, as well. I teach my dogs to orient by default as they go through a transition point (door, ring gates, crate door, etc). I say "go through" instead of a release, such as "OK", to send them through. (I originally snagged this idea from the Control Unleashed program)

 

At first I teach this in boring spaces and gradually increase the difficulty level until the dog can do it getting out of a car in an exciting place. By the time we get to the exciting place, we are at the point where I don't need treats anymore - the dog knows exactly what is expected.

 

Once the dog knows this, I very rarely treat it, opting instead for praise. But I do treat it on occasion (usually at the training building where I have treats) to keep it fresh.

 

I consider this as important a skill as "sit" or "stay" or recall, etc.

[bcnewe2]

We are totally guilty of the dash out the front or back door. My laziness. But for cars they check themselves. They dont know or have a routine so they hop out and turn to listen what I want, no rushing. Then I thought about my younger dog who is fast to run, everywhere. I make her wait while I put a leash on her which changes her dashing habits instantly or if its not a parkinglot or somehere not safe I release her with a "here" at the same time. Again changing her rushing attitude with the here.

I went out if town last year quite a bit. Dh didn't like the rushing out the back door. By the time I got home the weren't doing anymore.

Bahhhhdddd me, they are back to doing it! In my defence I do good things when we go out. Dh lets them outito potty.

[deadlywarbler]

I don't mean to nitpick, but this doesn't make sense, if you think about it! You are telling her "OK". Do you use that as a general release word, or have you taught her that "OK" means "jump out and wait"? If you use "OK" as a release, you are releasing her and then reprimanding her for releasing. It sounds to me, in this instance, that what she is doing is exactly what you have told her to do!

 

I see this a lot with people who teach their dogs to sit and wait at the door. They cue a sit-stay, open the door, and then release the dog and they practically get pulled over as the dog bolts out the door. Well . . . the handler gave a release and the dog released! Many people don't ever make a deliberate effort to actually teach the dog what to do after going through the door! I think many just don't even think about doing that. I actually teach that first and put in the wait at the door after the dog knows what to do when he or she gets to the other side! (I know, this is not the same, but it is actually quite similar)

 

My choice for car exits has been to teach my dogs to get out of the car and wait. I will call each dog out of the car by name (since I use my dog's name to call him or her to me, not to release) and then cue "wait" as his or her feet hit the ground. I have done this so often that it's pretty much a default by now when we are out and about. At home, I do give a release since they run right from the car to the gate right in our own driveway.

 

Just some food for thought.

This is such a good point. I didn't even think about that. "Ok" is also the word I use to release her on a dead sprint for a ball I've just thrown that she was waiting for. There's no reason that my "ok" after she waited in the car doesn't also mean "sprint forward". Back to the drawing board. I'm going to do some driveway sessions teaching her to jump down out of the car and turn to look at me. This is a brilliant idea.

 

You have to be constantly developing and analyzing what you are doing in training. It's fun and challenging. Thanks for bringing this point up.

[G. Festerling]

Yes, isn't it fun????

[deadlywarbler]

Yes, isn't it fun????

It is fun! Except when its not fun… =) Mainly I have a great time with the pup, but there are some issues developing with her attention on me. This could be a teenage thing, but I need to get these few things down cold…leash walking and recall. Funny the most important ones are the hardest...

[CMP]

I think dogs are like children in the sense that there is no universal truth as to what works and what does not. I had two children - one could be "hard corrected", the other could not. One was so sensitive to criticism that it often stymied forward movement, the other so impervious to any one's bad opinions that all he ever knew was forward motion.

 

I have had countless pups, more than a dozen Border Collies (just two from pups, though) and they all learned a little differently and liked and disliked different things. Molly, the current puppy, is 12 weeks and HATES any tension on the leash so she self corrects and has done so since the first time I snapped a leash on her. She will walk wherever is the farthest point ahead of your feet that the leash will reach without any pressure.

 

I do think that positive reinforcement is, generally, the best method for conditioning all intelligent beings - human or canine - but I also believe that in certain matters, the lesson is more important than the method. The dog's safety and the safety of other people is one of those matters and the leash is the best route to a safe dog.

 

The only thing I can think to suggest is something I used on a rescue BC that pulled my arm off. I conditioned her to "slooooooooooooow" without the leash in friendly, somewhat casual settings - when she was running for a toy, etc. I even played a modified version of the "freeze" game using "sloooooooooooooow" as the trigger with her.

 

Have you tried a game or training to condition her to slow her pace - which might be easier to understand than "stop pulling" - they are dogs that intrinsically understand the value and variation of speed in motion.

 

Good luck, anyway - they're as good at being bad as they are being good, aren't they?

[Alchemist]

Maybe I'm overly controlling - but I live in an urban environment, and I don't want my dogs to get run over when exiting a car. Nor do I want them bolting out of a door, even if it's the door to my fenced back yard.

 

So - all my dogs are taught to stay in a crate when the door is opened, until they've been released, since Day 1. They have a "leash" command (I use leashes with built-in martingale collars, so all they need to do is slip their head through the loop) that I use when the crate door is opened (if they're in the car). Then I'll release them, but I'll immediately ask them to "lie down".

 

At the back door, they all have to wait until they hear their name. They're allowed to step out, then I ask them to lie down. They're all supposed to lie down until I give the magic command: "go play!" Then they're off like a herd of gazelles, racing to the top of our hill.

 

They're also required to wait at the door to the garage until I call each dog's name. Saves from vet bills associated with three dogs thundering down the stairs all at once. But there I don't see much point in asking them to stop part way down the stairs. They don't have any problem at all learning the slight differences in rules between exiting a crate in the house, exiting the back door, exiting the car, and exiting the house to go to the garage.

[ourwully]

I'm a little late to this topic but I am training my first Border Collie and I have modified a technique that seems to be helping my 9 month old female named Juno on our daily walks. I posted this on another topic but here it is again.

 

1. Held the 4 foot leash with both hands at my stomach.

2. Walked forward not looking at Juno and not speaking.

3. When I felt the leash pull I turned and walked 4 steps back

4. Then I turned forward again and kept walking until she pulled again..

5. I repeated this for about 10 minutes of my walk until she started to walk properly.

 

I know this sounds like the same old stuff but I think the key element here is the not looking and not speaking. Before this I would be too soft on her and as a result the limits were not clear. By turning when I feel the leash tighten I am consistent and she knows exactly how far she can go without correction. She is basically teaching herself the limits of the leash. Because I have spent a lot of time with her already I don't use this technique all the time but when she is having a bad day I do it for a while just to get her back into the groove. Once she is walking without pulling I start to talk to her again and make mild corrections when needed. So far this is working for me. To be honest I think I was my own worse enemy by being way too soft with her.

 

Bill

[HJTRAS]

I took the chain link leash advice and it really worked she does not like biting it at all.

 

[Eileen Stein]

I'm a little late to this topic but I am training my first Border Collie and I have modified a technique that seems to be helping my 9 month old female named Juno on our daily walks. I posted this on another topic but here it is again.

 

1. Held the 4 foot leash with both hands at my stomach.

2. Walked forward not looking at Juno and not speaking.

3. When I felt the leash pull I turned and walked 4 steps back

4. Then I turned forward again and kept walking until she pulled again..

5. I repeated this for about 10 minutes of my walk until she started to walk properly.

 

I know this sounds like the same old stuff but I think the key element here is the not looking and not speaking. Before this I would be too soft on her and as a result the limits were not clear. By turning when I feel the leash tighten I am consistent and she knows exactly how far she can go without correction. She is basically teaching herself the limits of the leash. Because I have spent a lot of time with her already I don't use this technique all the time but when she is having a bad day I do it for a while just to get her back into the groove. Once she is walking without pulling I start to talk to her again and make mild corrections when needed. So far this is working for me. To be honest I think I was my own worse enemy by being way too soft with her.

 

Bill

I did much the same thing to good effect with a dog I was working with for someone else awhile back. I used a somewhat longer leash, but the main difference was that I didn't turn around -- I just started walking backwards at the same pace whenever she pulled, and started forward again when she had come back to me. Also said nothing. She picked up on what was happening very quickly, and figured out how to keep it from happening.

[deadlywarbler]

I'm a little late to this topic but I am training my first Border Collie and I have modified a technique that seems to be helping my 9 month old female named Juno on our daily walks. I posted this on another topic but here it is again.

 

1. Held the 4 foot leash with both hands at my stomach.

2. Walked forward not looking at Juno and not speaking.

3. When I felt the leash pull I turned and walked 4 steps back

4. Then I turned forward again and kept walking until she pulled again..

5. I repeated this for about 10 minutes of my walk until she started to walk properly.

 

I know this sounds like the same old stuff but I think the key element here is the not looking and not speaking. Before this I would be too soft on her and as a result the limits were not clear. By turning when I feel the leash tighten I am consistent and she knows exactly how far she can go without correction. She is basically teaching herself the limits of the leash. Because I have spent a lot of time with her already I don't use this technique all the time but when she is having a bad day I do it for a while just to get her back into the groove. Once she is walking without pulling I start to talk to her again and make mild corrections when needed. So far this is working for me. To be honest I think I was my own worse enemy by being way too soft with her.

 

Bill

I'm delayed in getting back to this post but have enjoyed reading everyone's response. I agree that dogs are all so different in how they respond to training. I think I'm trying to incorporate too many approaches to this task. I read from one trainer that engaging with your dog is good on walks, so regularly saying "good dog" and giving verbal cues with positive tones. Then I read others that give similar advice to the above comment. I have tried not looking at her or speaking, but she generally doesn't look at me at all. This is what really gets under my skin with this whole thing is that she doesn't pay any attention to me. The reason it bugs me is because I spent countless hours reinforcing her paying attention to me from the time she was a little puppy til now. We would go on walks and every time she looked at me, treat. If she was allowed off leash and came back to check in, treat. Over and over again. But get her on leash on walks these days and it's like I'm not even there. It's hard to approach training when you feel like your pup isn't even aware of you.

 

I posted some time ago about finding your dog's motivation. I'm still trying to figure out what it is that drives my pup. Food works some times, but she'll just as likely ignore a treat as do something to get it. Same for the ball. She loves the ball, but she's very selective about what she'll do for it. Sometimes she just doesn't want to do a command like lay down with the ball in my hand. So I will wait her out not doing anything and then repeating the command only every 15 seconds and she'll sit there like a statue. Impressive, but annoying.

 

So, I guess what I'm really after here is regaining control over my dog. I worked for a long time to give her the sense that working with me equals fun and treats. I have started introducing more harsh corrections when her behavior is especially bad, but that seems to just backslide everything. As you can tell from my tone it's been a frustrating day with the dog and I should probably just go to sleep and try again tomorrow, but it's weighing on me since she's 9 mo. old and starting to show some concerning behaviors and I'm invested in her being a good and happy pup. Thanks for letting me rant...

[Cass C]

My trainer always tells me not to stand there and repeat the command more than twice. Lyka went through a phase of not listening to anything right around the time I had to switch trainers. The new trainer is a more no nonsense trainer. If I tell my dog to sit twice and they don't do it, push on their butt and make them sit. If my dog won't lay down put a leash on them and stand on it in a way it forces the dog to lay down. Same goes for any other command they don't follow, you may have to force them to do the command, but not in a frustrated mind set. A dog is less likely to listen when you are irritated with them. Now the important part is to act like they did it on their own and give them a treat/ball. Like you already realized harsh punishments should not be used in the obediance side of training, as it can make things worse. Don't be afraid to just walk away from training if your dog is making you mad. That is not fair to either of you.

 

The only time I've really found punishment helpful is when correcting particularly dangerous behaviors such as snapping and snarling at other people and in some cases other dogs.

 

On the positive side at 9 months old this is probably a phase of testing limits and everytime they don't follow a command the dog thinks they no longer have to follow that command. Period. You just have to show her that if you tell her to do something she doesn't have a choice.

 

I understand your frustration and I hope this helps a little.

[GentleLake]

 

On the positive side at 9 months old this is probably a phase of testing limits and everytime they don't follow a command the dog thinks they no longer have to follow that command. Period. You just have to sow her that if you tell her to do something she doesn't have a choice.

 

 

Yep, so very true. This is a frustrating period with most dogs around that age -- much like what parents experience with rebellious teenagers. The important thing is to be consistent, expect cues to be acted upon and then intervene if they aren't carried out, and most importantly, to keep your cool as you're doing it.

[d112358]

 

The only time I've really found punishment helpful is when correcting particularly dangerous behaviors such as snapping and snarling at other people and in some cases other dogs.

 

 

This is exactly the time when I don't like (positive) punishment. I've found that you run a real risk of masking the dog's escalation signals (like growling, snarling or snapping) and getting a dog who goes from looking like everything's OK straight into a bite or full-on attack.

[GentleLake]

^^ This!

[Cass C]

 

This is exactly the time when I don't like (positive) punishment. I've found that you run a real risk of masking the dog's escalation signals (like growling, snarling or snapping) and getting a dog who goes from looking like everything's OK straight into a bite or full-on attack.

If my dogs are acting agressive I discipline them accordingly. I don't beat them into submission, but I will take away a chew if they growl at me because I'm near them while they are chewing. If they lunge at someone in an agressive way I will force them to lay on their side until they calm down, assuming it won't get me hurt or they are on a leash.

 

It doesn't work for all dogs, but it has worked for all the dogs I've had aggression issues with.

[d112358]

If my dogs are acting agressive I discipline them accordingly. I don't beat them into submission, but I will take away a chew if they growl at me because I'm near them while they are chewing. If they lunge at someone in an agressive way I will force them to lay on their side until they calm down, assuming it won't get me hurt or they are on a leash.

 

It doesn't work for all dogs, but it has worked for all the dogs I've had aggression issues with.

 

It works until it doesn't work, but when it doesn't work it means serious consequences. I use counter-conditioning with resource guarding - reframing the picture for the dog so that when someone comes near them and they have something good they get something even better. I do this even though I could just take it away, because I want them to be safe around unfamiliar people and children who they may be quicker to react to.

[Root Beer]

I find that it helps to consider the dog's perspective in these matters.

 

Imagine if my husband took me to a big Agility extravaganza and suddenly I was looking at everything but him. I'm into the vendors and I'm watching the Border Collies and I'm going oooh and aaaah and I'm not looking at him intently or getting involved in deep conversation with him. What good would it do for him to get offended because I am paying more attention to a very interesting environment than I am to him? None at all.

 

When I take my dogs for a walk, I consider that to be my dog's personal Disney World. I keep them safe, but I don't expect them to be gazing up at me adoringly as we walk around in the world together (sometimes they do, but often they don't). They look at stuff, sniff stuff, and engage (in appropriate ways) more with the world around us than with me.

 

And that's fine. They are hardwired to take all of that in. It is actually good for them to have a chance to relate to the world on their terms, not mine. We are still sharing the experience together. I get to enjoy watching them have some fun dog time.

 

That said, my dogs (except Bandit, who is in the process of learning), can be called off of things. I can get them to pay attention to me instead of the environment (I might cue attention if I want to pass by something they won't have access to). They can recall off of interesting scents and moving wildlife.

 

They can do those things because I worked with them at a level where they could be successful when they were learning. I gave them the chance to learn those skills as habits before I asked for them on walks.

 

I do training walks where we toggle between sustained attention and them being "at ease" to sniff, etc. We work whiplash turns on low level distractions before I ask for them on high level distractions. We work loose leash skills in the yard before I ask for them when out and about.

 

But throughout that process, I still gave them a chance to have "at ease" walks and hikes where they got a chance to be dogs on their terms (again, keeping them safe, of course).

 

One thing that really helped me when I first started working with Dean, who was 10 months old at the time, was to remind myself that his brain was not finished developing yet. It helped me to be patient and to remember that he was not intentionally acting like he had scrambled brains.

[deadlywarbler]

I find that it helps to consider the dog's perspective in these matters.

 

Imagine if my husband took me to a big Agility extravaganza and suddenly I was looking at everything but him. I'm into the vendors and I'm watching the Border Collies and I'm going oooh and aaaah and I'm not looking at him intently or getting involved in deep conversation with him. What good would it do for him to get offended because I am paying more attention to a very interesting environment than I am to him? None at all.

 

When I take my dogs for a walk, I consider that to be my dog's personal Disney World. I keep them safe, but I don't expect them to be gazing up at me adoringly as we walk around in the world together (sometimes they do, but often they don't). They look at stuff, sniff stuff, and engage (in appropriate ways) more with the world around us than with me.

 

And that's fine. They are hardwired to take all of that in. It is actually good for them to have a chance to relate to the world on their terms, not mine. We are still sharing the experience together. I get to enjoy watching them have some fun dog time.

 

That said, my dogs (except Bandit, who is in the process of learning), can be called off of things. I can get them to pay attention to me instead of the environment (I might cue attention if I want to pass by something they won't have access to). They can recall off of interesting scents and moving wildlife.

 

They can do those things because I worked with them at a level where they could be successful when they were learning. I gave them the chance to learn those skills as habits before I asked for them on walks.

 

I do training walks where we toggle between sustained attention and them being "at ease" to sniff, etc. We work whiplash turns on low level distractions before I ask for them on high level distractions. We work loose leash skills in the yard before I ask for them when out and about.

 

But throughout that process, I still gave them a chance to have "at ease" walks and hikes where they got a chance to be dogs on their terms (again, keeping them safe, of course).

 

One thing that really helped me when I first started working with Dean, who was 10 months old at the time, was to remind myself that his brain was not finished developing yet. It helped me to be patient and to remember that he was not intentionally acting like he had scrambled brains.

This is very wise. I always gain insight from thinking about things from the dogs perspective. I can see how I may have rushed her into situations when her skills were up to par... All of her other abilities were developed in a controlled environment and are now very reliable in the real world. I guess I'll have to go back to the drawing board and hope that habits haven't been formed thus far. I'm sure I can since so many people bring home rescues at this age and train them perfectly well.

[Root Beer]

Habits can be changed. Think of it as building something new off of what you're got rather than trying to "erase and recreate".

 

Some habits are tough to change, some are very easy. But it can be done.

[deadlywarbler]

Habits can be changed. Think of it as building something new off of what you're got rather than trying to "erase and recreate".

 

Some habits are tough to change, some are very easy. But it can be done.

Would you say leash walking falls into the easy or tough to change category?

[Root Beer]

It's a behavior like any other so in that sense it is no harder.

 

There is a challenge in leash training that lies with the handler. We just plain aren't always consistent. The less consistent the handler is, the longer it is likely to take.

 

I walk Bandit on a harness when he is "at ease" and I don't care what he does. When on the harness, he can pull, he can scamper all over the place. When I put the leash on his collar, I am looking for a loose leash. This is a work in progress, but it is going pretty well. And it removes the variable of those times when I need to transport him on leash but can't stop to do training.

[CMP]

I think correction is an *absolute necessity* if for no other reason than to give the dog a positive framework for the inevitable moment when ONLY a correction will do. A dog running towards a road is not a "hey cutie pie, come to mama" moment, it's a "stop in your gd tracks, dog, and get your ar*e back here." It will carry all the hallmarks of a correction: it will have an implied consequence, it is not negotiable, the speaker is willing to enforce it with as much force as is necessary and it indicates a seriously wrong behaviour which must not re-occur. A failure.

 

I don't correct often, but when I do, I do it with a great deal of authority. I don't mean the moment to moment, "no no" when training a young puppy about the basics of life and "no" is an instruction and not a correction - I mean the times when the dog is about to run onto the road or fails a recall in an important situation or bites down on the kitten's head or is about to put his paws on the campfire bricks. This also includes other critical infractions such as jumping on people or trying to get to a place I have declined permission (this would cover leash stuff - she would not have my permission to go farther than the length of the leash)

 

I will physically restrain (across chest with my arms), remove (pick up and carry), repel (walking stick) any behaviour which is simply unacceptable ever under any circumstance.

 

My father - who I considered a great "dog man" used to tell me that the kindest thing you could do for your dog was to give it limits, never negotiate them and be prepared to enforce them (without cruelty or abuse, of course). It sets the lesson quickly and completely if it is used judiciously.

 

I think positive reinforcement is the best way - in general terms - but I think adhering to it dogmatically and without regard for the absolute need to have a clear and unassailable order of authority is not very wise. I watch the handlers work with the young sheepers all the time and I sometimes find myself thinking the real value of a Border Collie lies in his ability to act like a professional - that is to say take correction in stride and make the right decisions thereafter.

 

It is likely a disservice to them to take the long way around simple issues - resulting in perpetual nagging and them tuning you out - when there IS a way to give them the lesson quickly, efficiently and without any sort of trauma by insisting on your authority being recognized.

 

At 17 weeks, my puppy does not get second chances on recall. She comes or I go get her and move her to where I want her to be. There are no second chances on leashes or lines - if she pulls, I pick her up and take her home. Anything I KNOW she knows, she is expected to respond properly to. If she is to be my companion and a trustworthy service dog both of us must always know what to expect from the other.

 

YMMV, of course.