"Reputable" Breeder?

[Eileen Stein]

But there are studies that show consistent screening and selection of breeding animals can at least reduce your odds of producing HD.

Yes, but it's a somewhat modest reduction in odds.

I've seen far too many dysplastic dogs that worked hard and were sound for many years to want to risk breeding without hip scores.

Well, I don't want to take this too far off-topic, but what's your definition of hip dysplasia? Is it hips that test as a poor fitting ball and socket (OFA) or too much laxity (PennHIP)? Or is it actual impaired function and pain? For a test to be valid, you need good evidence of correlation between the test and the clinical consequences it supposedly predicts. I've just seen much less evidence establishing that correlation than I would have expected there to be. Perhaps you're aware of more of this type of evidence than I am. Most of the evidence seems to be correlating test results with test results.

 

[ETA: For example, compare with job testing. The purpose of testing job applicants is to increase your chances of selecting the applicants who will be successful on the job. If you don't know what, if any, correlation there is between success on the test and success on the job, then you don't know whether your test is a good predictor of job success, and therefore you don't know whether choosing the high scorers is actually improving your odds of picking good employees. If you try to validate your test by comparing those test results to how employees do on a later test -- a promotional test, for example -- and you find a high correlation between the two, all you're showing is that success on the first test is predictive of success on the second test. You still don't really know whether success on the first test predicts success on the job.]

 

Again, I'm not advocating breeding without hip scores. I myself would not breed without hip scores. I just don't view it with horror, as some clearly do, because the testing is less informative than I think most people realize. If there were tests with a greater degree of predictive value available, then I would view it as more irresponsible to breed without using them.

[Liz P]

I don't feel that the science not being perfect is a valid reason to skip basic health screening.

 

In populations in which all dogs were hip scored there was a large reduction in HD. Because of this, it is theorized that the very reason for only modest success in reducing the incidence of HD in purebred dogs is the failure of enough people to screen breeding stock.

[Eileen Stein]

Liz P, on 20 Apr 2014 - 21:00, said:

I don't feel that the science not being perfect is a valid reason to skip basic health screening.

I don't either.

In populations in which all dogs were hip scored there was a large reduction in HD.

Let me try this one more time and then I'll stop. Job testing was too remote an example. So let's take a different breeding example. A group of border collie lovers who don't have access to livestock but who nevertheless want to breed to preserve working ability in the border collie decide that they will breed for eye, since eye is such a defining characteristic of the working border collie. They are able to "test for eye" by exposing their breeding stock to a tennis ball, and they breed only the dogs that show superior eye. I have no doubt that they can make tremendous progress in reducing the number of dogs they produce who don't eye a tennis ball, and in intensifying the degree of eye that their pups show when exposed to the tennis ball. Now if you define eye as "working ability," they have greatly increased working ability in their population. But without real world data about how successful their dogs are at managing livestock, you don't know if they have in fact increased working ability in their population. Maybe they have just produced dogs that better meet the test standards. Similarly, if the goal of hip scoring is to reduce the incidence of impaired function and pain, and not just to produce dogs with better hip scores, then it would be good to see data showing the degree to which dogs' OFA score or PennHIP score actually correlates with the development of impaired function and pain in the scored dog or in the scored dog's offspring. That's the kind of study data that I would like to see, and I'm surprised not to find.

 

Because I'm willing to assume that there is some degree of correlation between hip scores and impaired function/pain, I advocate hip scoring and do it myself. But if you have a line of dogs who actually work hard and function well into old age without evidence of incapacity or pain while working or while not working, I think that is some evidence that your dogs have "good hips" and are producing "good hips" in the sense that matters most. I would like to have both kinds of evidence, and that's what I advocate. But if you're going to have only one kind, I'm not convinced that relying on the information from hip scoring is superior to relying on the information from real life.

[Mark Billadeau]

Border Collies with hip dysplasia should not be bred.

 

Where is the data that shows Border Collies with OFA excellent hips function better than ones with OFA fair or good hips and therefore breeding for higher OFA scores should be a breeding goal?

[Mark Billadeau]

The Glen's will be a great resource for finding a working bred pup.

[mum24dog]

But you haven't defined HD as Eileen requested of Liz.

 

The ortho specialist I use informs me that the degree of malformation of the hip joint does not necessarily reflect the physical effect on the dog. A dog with very mild HD may present with more discomfort than one with a much more severe case.

 

I think Eileen is right; looking at the bigger picture rather than focussing solely on test scores would be wise before breeding or buying.

[G. Festerling]

I always am bumfuzzled by the whole HD discussion. I own a second breed. I own German Shepherds. There is NO breeding in the SV without hip (and now elbow) scores. None of my dogs are from non scored parents. Yet, I own one that is the one of the most severe cases my vet has even seen....on rads. Yet, look at her moving around and it was not till about 8 years of age after trauma (obviously this dog is spayed) that she showed any evidence. And she was one super active dog. Still is. Scoring and breeding according to HD has not made that much of a difference. Yes, as will all data, not all people adhere to it rather than the "but I like this dog". and the "but crossed with this a lower score will fix it" attitude. This dog came from east german herding lines. Dogs known for their health yet, all four pups that were brought in to the US scored fair or worse. And yes, I did originally buy her for breeding. My vet was shocked when we took the pics. So, if I had gone by longevity, by soundness, by toughness....I would have made a huge mistake.

This is only one single example because I own her. There are thousands of others. So I am not certain that screening for HD is fully understood or well executed.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Eileen and Mark have put it more thoughtfully than I ever would.

 

Almost all well bred sheepdog pups will work stock. It takes years to understand what combinations of skills might produce an exceptional sheepdog and to further understand which sorts of combinations an individual can work with ("heart" is a must have for me. "Too wide"s a no-no.) In thirty plus years I can count on the fingers of both hands how many working sheepdogs I've seen distressed by what might have been hip dysplasia.

 

There doesn't seem to be a very strong practical correlation between test failure and distress.

 

I've no answers for others but I've bought my last four dogs without asking about xrays. I've other, more complicated issues on my mind.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[chene]

At the risk of sounding like I'm changing the subject, I was wondering if anyone has recommendations for breeders in WA as well? Seattle and area, for example, are not far from Vancouver, or really anywhere in western or northern Washington. It'd be worth the drive if there's a good breeder having a litter at the right time in the area. Thanks again everyone.

[juliepoudrier]

Patrick Shannahan (Red Top) and Dianne Deal (someone else can probably provide the name of her kennel) are in Idaho. Diane Pagel is in WA (she's on this forum as DeltaBluez Tess, though she hasn't posted much lately). There are other working breeders in that region whose names aren't coming to me right now. Others who read here will certainly be able to name a few.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

At the risk of sounding like I'm changing the subject,

[workindogs]

For WA you would be good to keep watch on the WA Assoc of Stockdog Handlers (http://www.wastockdoghandlers.org/). and Oregon Sheepdog Society (osds.org) websites classified sections. There is a very nice litter of pups advertised now. Please also see these websites for the calendars of regional sheepdog trials (there is are two really awesome ones in Aug/Sept that you really should not miss called Vashon and Lacamas)....you would have a chance to see some of the best working dogs in the region (and N America) competing...and meet them and their owners....and maybe get good ideas about upcoming litters from the dogs that you like. You really must attend one or both of these events...shouldn't be missed by anyone in the PNW interested in good working sheepdogs and potential breeding.

 

The other recommendations above are also very good....Scott Glen is in WA frequently for clinics and lessons so that is a good recommendation for WA as well. I would also recommend Karen Child of OR who regularly (monthly?) offers lessons and clinics in Olympia WA (comebyekennel.com).

[workindogs]

Thank you Eileen for your thoughtful and reason response on predictive value testing and HD. Well said.

[GentleLake]

Chene, I applaud you for wanting to find a good breeder, but the most important question you need to ask yourself, "Are you a good home for a border collie, inparticular a working border collie puppy"? An apartment is not a good fit for these dogs, and I doubt HanginArch would want that living arrangement for one of their pups. Do you have working plans for your future pup? The reason I ask, is for a lot of city owners a pet dog in Border Collie Clothing is usually a better fit.

 

I'm coming to this party late, and I'll bet it's already been addressed, but making statements like this really irritates me.

 

Many border collies can do just fine in apartments and in cities, if their people are committed to addressing their needs.

 

I lived with 5 in a smallish house trailer (smaller than many apartments) for a year after I got divorced, and I worked a 45 hour week. The dogs did just fine. They were working bred dogs, and some had been working dogs themselves prior to and for a while after the divorce, but none of them suffered from lack of sheep when I had to sell the flock. Neither did the next one I got when I moved and was living in an apartment (with 2 of the original 5) when I went back to school.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "a pet dog in Border Collie Clothing", but if you mean a non-working bred border collie, I beg to disagree. I still live in a small house with a small yard and no sheep, but if I were buying a border collie now (current dogs are all rescues), I'd still look for a working bred dog. IMO, they're of a more stable temperament than so many of the sport- or pet-bred dogs I've come across (and I volunteer for a border collie rescue, so I'm not just talking about a few I've run across in my neighborhood.

 

So, to the OP, I agree that asking yourself in you're a good home for a border collie; everyone who's thinking about getting one should ask themselves that question, no matter where they live. But I applaud you for looking to find a reputable working breeder rather than helping to dilute the gene pool with an inappropriately bred version. And I sincerely believe you'll be happier with the dog as a result.

 

Best wishes in finding your amazing dog!

[MossyOak]

.

[GentleLake]

FWIW, I didn't have a yard at the trailer nor the apartment.

 

And I have nothing against adult rescues. In fact, I'm all for it -- a 3 of my current dogs are rescues and I volunteer for a border collie rescue, so I definitely try to steer people towards rescue.

 

But if the OP is set on buying a pup, I'd still recommend a working bred dog.

[highway61]

I would not encourage a novice Border Collie owner to go get a working dog without even knowing if she wants nothing more than a pet. And yes working dogs can make fine pets, but you would certainly want to select a puppy based on the new owners goals.

 

I believe this is the only time I've seen someone in these forums advocating that yes, even working dogs can make fine pets

 

By this submission it looks to me that you are suggesting if one doesn't live on a farm or have plans to work stock then just go get an AKC Border Collie?

[Gideon's girl]

As it happens pro handlers/breeders sometimes get a young dog from stockdog lines that is not that interested in working stock. There happens to be one currently avb in my area, it happens often enough that it would be a good choice for a novice Border Collie Owner.

Not being turned on by stock definitely does not make one a good house dog or pet.

[MossyOak]

.

[MrSnappy]

I ran a border collie rescue for ten years out of downtown Vancouver apartments and fostered literally *hundreds* of border collies. I raised three (rescue) litters in my downtown apartments. I did agility, played flyball and dabbled in stockdog work for years, whilst living in my downtown apartments. I know have 10 acres, and much less social dogs. And I'm a lot lazier with them It really does not matter where you live, it matters what you do with your dog.

 

RDM

[mum24dog]

Reread my post, I did not say get an AkC dog. Okay so a working dog can live in appartment but not make a fine pet. OMG a working border collie can make a fine pet if adequate exercise and mental activity keeps the dogs working desires met.Anyone reading my post could easily understand that as I've stated several times the importance of meeting the dogs needs, if you want a working dog in the city.

I understand your urging caution for a first time collie owner choosing a working bred dog but experience proves that having preconceptions as to what home will be a good fit for any particular dog would not be justified.

 

Fwiw lots of people here have pet collies and most that have been bought as pups will have come from a farm. Most of those owners don't do anything in particular with their dogs and they live in a variety of situations, with and without gardens. On the whole the dogs are pretty well adjusted to whatever life is provided for them.

[bcnewe2]

 

I know have 10 acres, and much less social dogs. And I'm a lot lazier with them It really does not matter where you live, it matters what you do with your dog.

This is so me. We have to work on socializing our dogs here. I have people over, so they are good with strangers but hardly do they go places like they used to when we lived closer to the city.

[G. Festerling]

The whole lifestyle issue aside, as that has already been discussed to death, we always make the point that there is 0 need for anyone to purposely breed PET Border Collies (or maybe even sport dogs ) as even the super high drive working bred litter will produce dogs that are by no means extreme.

I will not get into a discussion about supply and demand. Or that it maybe hard"er" to track them down. But I believe that is what was pointed out.

[Tommy Coyote]

My dogs are all pets. I think I'm on my 12th working bred border collie and they have all been pets. I do have a pretty good sized back yard and they get a lot of exercise out there just chasing squirrels and running around playing with each other. They do fine. They are wonderful companions. They are fun to be around and interested in everything that goes on in the house and the neighborhood.

 

I used to try and work my dogs but I'm about the world's worst dog trainer. I gave that up. I got sick of embarrassing my dogs.

 

I would not want to try living in an apartment with them but I sure would if I didn't have anywhere else to go. But I'm really lazy. I don't like to walk dogs in my neighborhood. And the parks around me are just full of other dogs and people and kids and I don't like to go there.

 

We just live at home. I am in and out during the day so I can let the dogs out pretty often and they don't have to go for hours while I'm at work.

[juliepoudrier]

I was hoping we'd hear from you Sheena!

 

FWIW, right now I am living in a 23-foot camper with 8 border collies, 6 of whom are working bred, and one of which is a pup. I also went from working one job with plenty of free time and disposable income for training and traling to working at home (much less money and free time) to working a job and a half, with the consequent changes in the amount of time I spend with my dogs. They do have a small yard to go in right now, but I don't always have time to exercise them, and honestly, what they want is to exercise with ME, not by themselves out in the yard. We have all adapted to our recent (and less recent) changes in circumstance.

 

If the human wants to make it work, they'll make it work. And a working bred pup should have the stable temperament to be able to adapt to whatever situation the human makes for the dog. I wouldn't worry about a yard so much as the commitment the human brings to the table to make it work.

 

And don't we always say that mental stimulation is at least as important as physical exercise? A lot of mental training/stimulation can take place in small spaces....

 

J.