Sifreynir Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I have read the 'read this first' post about the general beliefs of the people of the board etc and if I didn't feel the same...I wouldn't be posting here. I am however a novice in the BC and at the moment just have a HUGE love for the breed I was brought up with. Our BC died before I was 5 so I just have lots of memories of a big gorgeous looking bitch who I cuddled alot. Anyway. In our search for a border collie I came across lots of KC breeders, who I have to say I don't like the look of the dog...many of their dogs don't look like BC's IMHO. I also came across a couple of breeders who had dual registered dogs (ISDS & KC). One breeder had a litter that was aparently perfect for our family and seemed ever so keen for us to take a puppy from a particular litter. When I asked about later planned litters I was told that they wouldn't be suitable for a 'pet' environment. Initially I didn't think much about it until I found another breeder we are getting a puppy from (again the dogs can be registered ISDS & KC), who believes that as long as a BC is bred as a BC whether it goes into a farm environment, agility, obedience or pet environment...it doesn't make any difference as long as the owners are as commited as the dog will be....simply because its a border collie. If the experienced BC owners here came across the above from prospective breeders, what would you make of it? What attitude towards breeding would you expect a good BC breeder to have? Thank you Sifreynir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 If I were in Scotland, I'd look for a pup from the breeders who made the breed what it is today. The farm dogs of old made wonderful active companions and always will. Look for a breeder/farmer/shepherd who keeps his dogs with him, not someone who has a kennel full of dogs like a thoroughbred stable. A good breeder knows his dogs and can tell you not only what the dog is like as a working dog, but as a companion. Some might not want to have anything to do with you. That's OK, there's others that I know are friendly and just want good homes for their pups. Be aware that you aren't getting a dog you can keep in the garden all day and just take one short walk in the evening - but I'd hope you'd know that already. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Be aware that you aren't getting a dog you can keep in the garden all day and just take one short walk in the evening - but I'd hope you'd know that already. oh yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 In the US, any ISDS or ABCA-registered Border Collie can be registered with the American Kennel Club as the AKC has an open registry (the reverse is not an option, thank goodness). I don't know if that is the case in the UK (that ISDS-registered dogs can be entered into the KC registry without KC ancestry). If a breeder's suggestion or "selling point" is that their ISDS-registered pups CAN be registered with the Kennel Club (either because the parents are dual-registered or because the KC as an open registry), I would probably go elsewhere because that breeder would seem to be discounting the value of working-bred dogs by recognizing Border Collies as a conformation/show club breed. Many Border Collies are not tempermentally suited to be pets although many that don't "make it" as working dogs can be excellent companion/performance/sport dogs IN THE RIGHT SITUATION. Not all families are well suited to meet the physical and (more importantly) mental needs of the Border Collie. Have you considered adopting a Border Collie from a reputable rescue? Many of these dogs may be those that are not suited for a working (farm/trial) life but may be well-suited for a life as an active companion animal. They are often fostered with families and so, although their breeding and background may not be known, their personalities and needs may have been evaluated and assessed by experienced fosterers. Getting a pup is always a "shot in the dark" because the pup could turn out to be nothing like its parents (good breeding should reduce this risk) but adopting an adult (or young adult) dog from a good rescue may increase your chances of getting "a good fit" for your family. Best wishes in finding the right dog for your family! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 In the US, any ISDS or ABCA-registered Border Collie can be registered with the American Kennel Club as the AKC has an open registry (the reverse is not an option, thank goodness). I don't know if that is the case in the UK (that ISDS-registered dogs can be entered into the KC registry without KC ancestry). its my understanding that ISDS registered dogs can be registered with KC as long as they can produce and official pedigree from the ISDS showing at least four generations. However a KC only registered dog has to proove itself at trial before being allowed onto the ISDS register. The main selling point of the initial breeder, seemed to be that one particular litter from a specific pair would be more appropriate than any other she was planning on...if that makes sense. To be honest I cannot seem to figure out what this breeders reasons are for breeding though they did ask many questions as to why and what we wanted the dog for. The other breeder made no selling point, she read the details I sent her about our family, lifestyle and what we felt we could offer a border collie and she felt we would be suitable for her dogs. She breeds ONLY to replace her working dogs and the other dogs are sold on to interested parties after a review and extensive questionnaire. I have known a couple of BC's that weren't interested in sheep and made it as household companions! My partner grew up with a BC who would have made an excellent working dog...but ended up being sold in the pub?? We have considered a rescued BC, even got out to some local rescue centres, we just seemed to be pipped at the post because of travelling restrictions and the woman at the centre actually told us we would be better off based on what we told her to go specifically to go to a breeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 That kind of blows my mind - I'm told there's a big BC rescue problem in the UK (I didn't think of it before because I'm a little dsitracted right now, thanks Sue). Well, maybe you'll get in touch with someone through this Board, who knows! There's also a few Board members who are in Scotland or have connections there and can probably help you with your breeder search if that doesn't work out. I'd be absolutely astonished if you lived where you did and couldn't find a great Border Collie, whether a rescue, a pup, or an adult that didn't make it as a working dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 That kind of blows my mind - I'm told there's a big BC rescue problem in the UK (I didn't think of it before because I'm a little dsitracted right now, thanks Sue). Its possibly because the BC rescue place are so rigourous, its almost as difficult to adopt a BC from them, as it is to adopt a child. I support totally their need to be so through, because i seen the damage that can be done to BC's that have been mis-treated or the owners couldn't cope/un-prepared. However I can understand why people loose heart when they treated like criminals before they step through the doors. We found our breeder, just awaitin the arrival of tiny paws. I just wanted to know peoples opinions of the breeders attitudes and how it fitted in with your feelings on the breed in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Based on the description, I'd be far more comfortable with the second breeder you mentioned. If they're breeding to replace their working dogs, that tells you several things: One, they like what they've got enough that they're wanting to continue those lines. Two, they work their dogs, so they're looking to preserve WORKING ability in their breeding choices. Three, their motives are not to make money by breeding a lot of puppies and selling them, but to produce good working dogs for themselves (and presumably others). Four, they apparantly know their dogs well enough to know WHAT they like about them and to make informed choices about which dogs to breed together. Five, that being so, they probably have a hope of being able to steer you to the most appropriate pup from the litter. The fact that they took into consideration your family, lifestyle, and motives in getting a pup also seems reassuring, as does the fact that they didn't appear to be TRYING to sell pups; ISTM that someone who is breeding to replace their own working dogs ought to know other people interested in that breeding (if it's any good, other farmers would potentially be interested in pups.) A breeder of that nature probably doesn't have pups go begging for long, and doesn't need to push a sale. Just my thoughts... from very very far away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Based on the description, I'd be far more comfortable with the second breeder you mentioned. If they're breeding to replace their working dogs, that tells you several things: One, they like what they've got enough that they're wanting to continue those lines. Two, they work their dogs, so they're looking to preserve WORKING ability in their breeding choices. Three, their motives are not to make money by breeding a lot of puppies and selling them, but to produce good working dogs for themselves (and presumably others). Four, they apparantly know their dogs well enough to know WHAT they like about them and to make informed choices about which dogs to breed together. Five, that being so, they probably have a hope of being able to steer you to the most appropriate pup from the litter. been doing a bit more digging. It appears that both breeders are listed in the ISDS database...the second breeder tho has bred less dogs than the other one. It does seem less like a factory and score pointing breeding program they have. My friend(she is staffordshire bull terrier obsessed) likened the other one to a posh puppy farm There is however alot less health test information available on the second breeders dogs. I just don't want to give money to a breeder that isn't breeding for the benefit of the dogs....nor do I want to buy a puppy that is going to suffer as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Well, with the added information you've provided, it sounds like the second breeder is more to my liking. Health checks, etc., are fine and dandy but when a person breeds two suitable, work-tested, sound, tempermentally-sound, dogs together for a good purpose (the dogs are so good he/she wants another for work from that pairing) - that sounds like a responsible breeder. You can do all the health tests in the world, and not produce a good pup But you can breed good, work-proven dogs intelligently, and get good pups. Some rescues are almost overly zealous but they are trying to not make mistakes when placing their dogs. Some potential excellent homes would be missed by adhering to strict rules "on paper" and not "in the spirit". I wish some of the UK folks on this board would chime in with helpful advice for you. Some are familiar with excellent breeders and could maybe point you towards a suitable dog (maybe one that didn't "pan out" as a working dog prospect) that would make a wonderful, active, companion. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Not doing health testing is not a guarantee of having poor pups, and doing it is not a guarantee of having sound ones. Many breeders I consider "poor" brag about doing health checks but still produce poor quality dogs (and we should remember that "soundness" isn't limited to physical parameters which can be measured with Xrays etc; part of soundness is in the dog's brain). Ideally you like to have BOTH working parents AND health checks, of course, but that may not be available. Is it possible to meet the parents of the pups you're considering? To speak to the owners of prior pups? If the breeder is using the dogs, every day, to work livestock, that's at least a suggestion that they're resonably sound whether or not hips films have been done. You can't really assess most hips in puppies (unless they're outrageously bad), but Collie Eye Anomaly can be tested for in quite young dogs, so that's somehting you could readily rule in or out (it isn't very common in BCs anyway, at least here, but a boarded opthalmologist ought to be able to help you there). TBH, the "posh puppy mill" worries me more than a working farmer breeding their good working dogs to get more good working dogs, even without the health checks. That may be wrong of me, but that's my gut reaction. Anyone else have thoughts on this? (ETA: Crossposting with Sue R....!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Is it possible to meet the parents of the pups you're considering? To speak to the owners of prior pups? With both breeders I can meet both the sire and the dam. With the 'working' breeder I can also meet, brothers, cousins, sisters, grandma, aunties and uncles Other things i notice about their websites...the working one states it breeds only for working ability and temperament...the other makes a statement about all the colours and coat lengths they breed from. I won't give details of the 'puppy' mill one..cos that would just be low. But I notice that despite the urgency their pups still haven't gone from the litter! here is the 'working' breeders website Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Just read this thread - I have been away from the list for a little while. OK - firstly, what do you want your dog to do? Will you be working your dog (on sheep or cattle), do you want a companion or will you be training in obedience, agility, flyball, working trials etc? Both my dogs are ISDS registered - not KC. I wouldn't want a KC or dual-registered pup to be honest. You say the second breeder works their dogs - are both parents working ISDS registered collies? Do they trial? Once I have this info, I can hopefully give you a more comprehensive reply (based on my point of view). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 I am the same as you - I don't want a KC registered pup...and to be honest whilst the pups can be dual registered I far more interested in the ISDS, because of the standard for the breed it seems to set. Anyway - the dog will be a companion dog within the family. Both dam and sire are ISDS registered and working dogs...I sayin all this you can see their site now lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Other things i notice about their websites...the working one states it breeds only for working ability and temperament...the other makes a statement about all the colours and coat lengths they breed from. This pretty much says it all. Stick with the working breeder, if they are indeed a good breeder, and avoid the "choose your color" breeder no matter what. Just my opinion, and I am sure Kirsty (Moss) will give you excellent and educated information. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I typed up a big ol' long reply this morning right when the site went down, lol. Anyway, looks like everyone else has covered what I wanted to say. Do consider talking more with Kirsty and others who may get in touch with you from this Board, I know there's others in your area who would be familiar with good, reputable, breeders of Border Collies who'd be appropriate as companions (though also bred as working dogs). Let's see, of the five working bred dogs lying at my feet right now, two of them had sires imported directly from Scotland (Ted and Gus), and the other two had grandparents who were imported from Scotland (Ben, two, and Cord, three). All of them make terrific housedogs. The other one, by the way, is American bred with lines way, way, way back to Scottish breeding, and one Irish line. Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention was that my grandparents were from your area - my grandmother was Lithuanian and my granddad was a Riddle. They moved to Detroit in the US. I've lost touch with them so I don't know any more of the family history than that, but small world, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 small world indeed - I even met up with someone on here who attends local obedience classes and is going to let the kids meet their dog (when he has recovered from his op poor lad)!! Looking over the Teun van den Dool database site, it seems Scotland is the best at breeding its own dogs, so am not supprised there a few dogs from Scotland exported! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moss Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Hiya again I have seen the website before that you have posted, but don't know the breeder. I haven't had much of a chance to have an in-depth look at the dogs on the website yet, but from a quick glance it would appear they do breed for working ability from working parents, which is a great start A good contact in Scotland (I am still in NW England until September!) is Laura Cunningham - website www.corriedhu.co.uk - her email address should be on there. She does breed occasional litters, as does her boyfriend, Angus Jardine, and they may have pups available or know a bit more about the breeder on the website link. My boyfriend shepherds in Scotland, so I will ask him later whether he knows of the breeder on the link too. Have you actually booked a pup, or are you still at the enquiring stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I have enquired, a pup would be ready from a litter due in Autumn/winter time. Still have to send deposit to secure booking tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I didn't actuall look at the website until last night - I may know someone with dogs or a dog bought from that person - the Davidson's Chief linebred stuff on the top looks very familiar. I need to dig a bit and will get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLW1 Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I know 2 dogs from that breeder. One's an agility dog and the other works sheep and is really nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 thanks so much for everyones input. I know not everyone is going to agree on things, but at least if I can get a good cross section of opinion it will better help us make the right decision for us...and ultimately the dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Just wanted to add this in about the Border Collie rescue place here in the UK. It has been such a long time since I bothered to look, and I figured it was best to go look today. Basically we wouldn't be considered because I have children under 7. Also no dog under 6months will be homed as a family pet. Our only option is a breeder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha J Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Just wanted to add this in about the Border Collie rescue place here in the UK. It has been such a long time since I bothered to look, and I figured it was best to go look today. Basically we wouldn't be considered because I have children under 7. Also no dog under 6months will be homed as a family pet. Our only option is a breeder! Hi, i just wanted to add too that we looked into re-homing a BC before Holly. Of the ones we came across - none would have been re-homed with children some even under 14yrs so i know there is a problem being able to rehome one sometimes in the UK. We only looked at one home though so maybe if we had looked further we may have been able to have one. (There were other reasons we went for a puppy from a breeder at the time but we did consider getting one from the centre too). We don't have a family yet but looking to the future we couldn't have rehomed a dog who wouldn't be homed with young children now only to have to rehome them again later. That wouldn't be good for the dog or us. I wonder wether the BC's we came accross in the homes did actually show any aggression to children or wether the homes were over cautious. We have had quite a few dogs mauling children in the news recently so maybe that is why they are so careful. I don't know as i am not that knowledgeable yet of the BC as Holly is my first. I am glad they are very careful though about rehoming any dog, that's why i don't think of our local home as too sad as at least hopefully the next home will the right home. Anyway good luck finding a pup just wanted to add that my experience was much the same as your one in the rehome place in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 I can understand the children caution because there are few children taught to respect animals, however to exclude families all together to me seems ridiculous. I was speaking to friends who live in the Orkney's and they were telling me its common practise up there for the farmers to drown any pups they don't want...which obviously sounds awful. However I been trying to get up to Orkney for the last three years, just visiting there costs more than it does to go abroad...so i can imagine how difficult it will be to import or export dogs. Living up there is hard enough without spending money on pups trying to find new owners. Harsh but true. I am still undecided. Just when I think 'yes this is what we will do' I change my mind lol. My better half wants to wait for the pups up in Appin. Thanks for your input Samantha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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