Introducing Molly and Bear

[larryfoster]

First, thank you for providing such a rich resource and allowing us to participate and learn about these wonderful dogs.

 

Molly is 3 years old and Bear is 3-1/2 months.

Both are purebreds.

 

After having German Shepherds for 40 years, my daughter convinced me to get a BC, Molly.

 

Collies are certainly different than Shepherds.

I thought I was sort of clever as a trainer but Molly humbled me.

 

We had no sheep but Molly did work with our chickens.

 

We fumbled and bumbled her training trying to learn from books and videos.

Have a neighbor who who has sheep and trials her dogs but she had no interest in even looking at Molly to evaluate or give us any kind of tips.

 

We couldn't find any trainers reasonably close so we were on our own.

 

Recently got a couple goats and hope to use the dogs with them.

 

Bear also recently joined us and we hope to avoid some of our mistakes with Molly, which we hope are not irreparable.

 

We will be going to watch our first trial in a couple weeks in the hope of learning something and talking to other owners.

 

Looking forward to talking with you about these great dogs.

 

 

 

 

[Maja]

They are both very sweet!

[amc]

Good luck in your journey with Molly and Bear!! Where are you located?

 

Amy

[larryfoster]

Thank you

 

We are in western Pa. about 50 miles north east of Pittsburgh.

[Sue R]

Welcome!

 

I'm not aware of many resources within a decent drive of your area and even fewer *good* resources. There are some good handlers in central and western NYS and western Ohio that I can think of, but no one close to you comes to mind. I can think of a couple of "I'd suggest you avoid" within a few hours of you, but that's it.

 

As for your neighbor, I don't have a clue who she might be but there are many people who either don't have the time or inclination to let someone else and their dogs interact with their sheep (or other livestock), and that can simply be for the sake of the sheep.

 

Going to a USBCHA trial is a great approach. Hopefully, you will be able to meet people who can help you make connections with good trainers so that you can find a mentor. May I ask which trial you will be going to? There is a world of difference between USBCHA trials and ASCA/AHBA/AKC events, and that is why I ask. I would suggest you try to make connections with people who trial in USBCHA trials rather than the other organizations' events. The quality of the dogs, the work, the training, the handling, etc., is generally much higher.

 

Very best wishes!

[larryfoster]

Thanks, Sue R.

We are going to the USBCHA trial at Peninsula, Ohio on Oct. 15.

 

This will be the first time we have ever seen these dogs work live.

 

Up until now, we've just read books and subscribed to this site.

http://www.workingsheepdog.co.uk/

As far as my neighbor, I'm puzzled.

We are connected in many ways.

Her husband started the largest animal hospital in our area 40+ years ago and I have known him and his family my whole life.

I sold them the house they built 35 years ago.

Her mom was my 3rd and 4th grade teacher and I was her sisters' classmate.

She's getting up in years but still trials (or did until recently)

About a year ago she called and indicated she as soon as the cold snap was over in a couple days and she would put Molly in with a couple sheep to see if she had any instinct.

That call never came and I ran into her several months later.

She said she didn't forget to call.

Just didn't.

My personal experience with BC people has not been that good.

We had been looking for a pup for a while.

We would find some and ask a few questions and they'd stop talking.

BTW, we, probably, broke all the rules listed here on what to look for when buying a pup both times.

But, I think we may have gotten lucky because God takes care of idiots.

[Sue R]

Well, many serious Border Collie people (and I mean people who are interested in the working dogs, not the show or sport or pet dogs) can be pretty intense about the dogs and, if someone isn't into *the working dogs* in a manner that they regard as "serious", they can lose interest fast. And you seem perceptive that since you didn't know any better, you were not looking with the philosophy of these boards (and most working dog people) in mind, and that didn't help. Working Border Collie people can be either very outgoing or not, and I know a lot that are not.

 

Honestly, I've never had an issue with people not being welcoming and willing to share information with me, even when I was pretty clueless, but that might be because they recognized that I was looking for a pup to raise to help us with our cow herd. Since they knew we were serious about our livestock, had some background experience with working dogs that we'd had previously (even though, as I said, we were still pretty clueless), and were not looking to get into this as a "sport" or a "hobby" but rather as a way to help manage our stock, folks may have cut us a bit of slack when it came to our cluelessness.

 

The best way I have found to make connections is to go to trials and be a volunteer. Most trials can use lots of volunteers and experience is not needed at all for a number of helpful jobs. It's a great way to meet people, to get your name out there, to be able to talk to people, and to let folks know you are serious about wanting to know more and learn. And it is a great opportunity to learn! Also, you can observe handlers and their dogs, see which people you would like to emulate, see whose interactions with their dog you admire, see who seems capable and whose dogs seem to have a quality package of traits.

 

Most serious working dog people only produce a litter when they want a pup for themselves, and oftentimes, for good breeders, all the pups in a litter will be spoken for in advance. That's not to say a person with a few sheep can't get a nicely-bred pup but the likelihood of popping up out of nowhere and getting a good breeder to say, "Sure, I'll sell you a pup from my next litter" is not very high. You will, of course, have multitudes of opportunities to find a pup from a less-responsible breeder, many of whom can readily be found on the internet through slick websites and/or volume puppy sale sites. Avoid them at all costs!

 

It can take time to make the connections you want - to find well-bred pups; to find a mentor; to find training. But it's worth it in the long run.

 

Observe trial ettiquette - be quiet and listen; don't ask questions when people are concentrating (like when they are preparing for a run or just done with a run and cooling their dog or waiting to exhaust the next packet of sheep); listen more than you speak; if you take your dog, make sure he/she is quiet and under control at all times (some trials allow spectator dogs and some prefer not - contact the host beforehand to make sure before you bring a dog); bring a chair and dress in layers, and don't forget snacks; and all the usual stuff a good "guest" should do.

 

And, yes, God does help idiots if they are open to help, and I am proof of that - but He sure appreciates when we do our homework so he doesn't have to work quite so hard to help us out!

 

I have no idea why your neighbor changed her tune like that. Maybe there's something going on that you are not aware of. For instance, I had someone who worked with me but who could no longer do so because of an old injury which posed a threat that was not visible to me. If she had not shared that with me but just told me that she could no longer work with me, I would have been left wondering why.

[larryfoster]

Thanks for all the tips, Sue R.

 

I'm thinking that the pups (and breeders) we found were on Craigslist and not all were legitimate.

 

Because many were some distance from us, we wanted info before we traveled.

 

All provided a little info but when we had follow up questions they stopped responding.

 

Our interest is to have good dogs and preserve the breed for the qualities they were bred for.

 

I noticed in one of the buying tips was not to get an AKC dog.

I agree.

I saw what they did to German Shepherds over my 40 years with that breed.

 

The difference between the first and last one was huge and quite disappointing.

[Sue R]

Craigslist? No wonder! Definitely always stay away from Craigslist, Puppyfind, any of those sorts of sites, please. No wonder they stopped communicating when you asked questions. They don't want to give answers, they just want your money.

 

That said, most of us have made mistakes of one sort or another, whether it's selecting a breeder that we shouldn't have, trying training styles that we shouldn't have, trusting people we shouldn't have, you name it! The important thing is that we listen and learn, and stick with the good information and lessons we have access to.

 

I used to help with puppy and family dog classes - some breeds are, through horrible breeding choices propagated by the show ring and/or consumer demand, train wrecks. None is more to be pitied than the once-noble German Shepherd Dog which, thankfully, does still exist in its glory in pockets of responsible breeders who breed for smarts, soundness, and health, but they can be hard to find without quite a search. I saw too many that were built so badly they would not make it through more than a few years of youth before breaking down, and also too many that had temperament issues from an early age.

[larryfoster]

My first Shepherd was the best Shepherd there ever was after Rin Tin Tin.

Really.

 

I got her from a farm outside Cincinnati when I was in college and she went to college classes with me, which may explain why she was so smart.

 

.

By the time of the 3rd one in early 2000s, she was dumb as a box of rocks with much better pedigree.

Thanks AKC.

 

If we end up getting stuck in the hinterlands and can't find any training help.

 

Are there any books or other online resources to try to get us started that you would recommend??

[larryfoster]

Bear acted like a Border Collie today!!!

 

He's under 4 months.

 

We were messing with the goats and he started circling and going in on one.

Even gave it a little bit of "eye"

 

Now, how to figure out how to build on that