Doesn't play nice

[gcv-border]

Natt (female, ~17 months old that I have had for about 5 months) doesn't play nice. Example: 3 dogs and 3 toys in the back yard. The 2 boys will play very nice with their toys. They will wait their turn for a throw and only go after the toy that I throw for them. Natt will go after a toy I throw for her, then drop it and run after another toy. Making a nasty growl and diving in to get it. Everyone else's toy is better than hers. Sometimes she ignores a toy I throw for her because she knows that another toy will be in play in the next few seconds. Other times she will just run in circles and then growl and dive in to get a toy. Luckily, the boys are nice and will either let her have the toy, or they just turn their head so she can't grab it out of their mouth.

 

I have started putting her on a long line so I can try to control her bratty behavior. I will intensely try to play with a toy with her (she is still learning about interactive toy play; she prefers to just run around with a toy in her mouth) and then throw another toy for one of the other dogs. She is not able to go after it because I have her on the long line. I will reward her (or at least try to reward since she is more focused on the toy she can not have) for 'staying' with me.

 

Not sure how to proceed to try and train her not to be a toy-stealing brat. Obviously, I can manage her behavior, but would like to progress beyond that.

 

Suggestions for future training? One thing I have thought about is to try and bring her outside alone and play with toys with her to increase her drive to play with me.

[CptJack]

Does she resource guard in general?

 

That said, I would tackle this on a couple of levels:
1-) Really good stay/release.

2-) Working on understanding of performing commands directed at *her*. Ie: Natt, Sit= She sits, and is rewarded for it. Sitting for Kiefer, Sit does not.

3-) If there's a resource guarding issue in other circumstances, work on that.

4-) Strong, hard core, leave it work with her one on one until you can throw that toy, when it's JUST for her, and have her NOT chase it. ...Do that same thing with a stay as a means of proof it. This can be combined with one on one play where playing with YOU is the thing to do.

And expect it to take time, yeah, and manage in the meanwhile. It's doable, but it's pretty 'doggy' behavior for some dogs and can take a lot of work. Most of it re: Impulse control and she's young.

[denice]

Sounds like a typical bitch to me. All the males I have ever had have been easy going and get along with everyone. No worries, no snarky behavior. The girls on the other hand - not that way. I do not generally play much with my dogs. They help with chores daily and have a yard to run in and others to play with if they wish. When I do throw a ball I tend to only have one or two dogs out at a time. Otherwise there can be problems. It seems there is more competition once there are 3.

[CptJack]

Molly may well be an exception, but she's very, very willing to wait for other dogs to play/have their turn and if we're not taking turns/she's chasing with another dog, she's willing to fall back and let the other dog have it. She's just not possessive or 'bitchy' at all.

[gcv-border]

Denice - I wondered how much of this was typical bitch behavior - never having had an intact BC bitch before. My previous 'females' - which were only dogs - were a BC/Lab mix that was spayed at 6-7 months old [back in 1980-1981] and a Sheltie mix rescue that was already spayed when I adopted her at ~3.5 years of age in 1991.

 

CptJack - I think that adding impulse control exercises will help. I will just have to come up with a plan. I like the idea of training her to 'stay' when I throw a toy (with no other dogs in the picture to begin with). She is great with impulse control when I put her food down and will wait in a sit until I tell her to 'break'.

 

She is not resource guardy in general. I have never tried to take her food away from her (just not something that I usually do - although I can do it with my other 2 dogs without a problem. I feel that I am still building trust with this dog.), but I have given her a neck bone to chew, and after about 15 minutes of chewing, I was able to carefully remove it from her by distracting her with a toy. So a bit guardy with high value items, but not extremely so.

[CptJack]

Yeah, sounds like you just need to work some basic impulse control more and specifically teach her to release to a toy. She sounds like a nice dog! Well, bitch. You know what I mean.

[D'Elle]

When Kit came to live with Jester and me she thought that it was her job to try to get to the ball or frisbee first, and then not allow Jester to have it. She would not retrieve it, no matter what I did to try to teach her to do so. She just wanted to hoard it.

 

What I did was allow her to hoard it for three to five seconds, so that she could participate in the play in her own way, and then I would tell her "Leave it!", and give her another 5 seconds to do so. If she let it go, play continued. If she did not, she got put into a Time Out Stay up on the steps -in a place where she could see Jester playing and having fun, but she could not participate. I would leave her there for two to three throws of the toy and then release her. But if she hoarded again, she went back into time out.

 

I did the time out without a leash or anything to restrain her. If I told her to go to the steps for a time out and she did not go, I went and got her and took her there. If she moved, I just went and got her and put her back again. After a while I could order her into a time out and she would go put herself up on the steps and stay there until I released her, because she knew that she would end up there anyway, and she'd get back to playing faster if she did it herself.

 

Eventually she got to where she would release the toy when I told her to, in order to avoid the time out. And finally she stopped hoarding the toy at all for more than five or ten seconds. The whole process from start, to no more need for me even to tell her to leave it, took two years. It took about four months for her to go voluntarily into a time out when I told her to. But it was all time well spent.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Bitch is bitch: intact or spayed. Adult dogs don't need to play; some want to, most don't. Pet owners, on the other hand . . .

 

Donald McCaig

[Hooper2]

As an adult I've had 9 dogs and the succession has always been boy/girl/boy/girl. Never planned it that way, but it just turned out like that. I've had pretty much every permutation of combinations spayed/neutered/intact and in every single case by the time the youngest dog turns a year old, that's the one who dominates the fetch games until a new youngster comes along. Donald is right that adult dogs don't need to play, but I've had a few who like to, and it makes me a little sad when they get buffaloed by younger upstarts. They all have very reliable stays, including while playing fetch. But sorting out "Lad, fetch, no Lassie, stay; no, that's ok you can fetch Lad; Lassie YOU stay; sorry Lad you can go, it's Lassie that I want to stay..." is the sort of training situation that makes my head explode. So, if I have an older dog who likes to play fetch, I just make sure I schedule a few minutes to do that individually. Of course it helps that I have acreage to do that on, so everyone else can just chill in the house while each dog gets his/her turn.

 

Anyway, in my experience, neither gender nor possession of gonads has anything to do with who dominates the fetch games. It's all about youth will be served in my pack.

[Maralynn]

Ah, yes. That would be Kenzi. All the things must be hers. And she was spayed at 6 m/o.

 

Impulse control, consistent guidlines, one on one time and maturity have really helped.

 

She'd still like all the things to be hers but grudgingly plays by the rules. Most of the time.

 

When Missy and Kipp were alive, she knew better than to try and press Miss. But she'd walk up and take stuff out of Kipp's mouth. Poor boy would just walk over and look at me with forlorn eyes. That took a couple months to get her past.

[Root Beer]

Suggestions for future training? One thing I have thought about is to try and bring her outside alone and play with toys with her to increase her drive to play with me.

 

This is what I had to do with Dean when I first adopted him. He thought it sporting to try to tackle Speedy and get HIS toy when we went out to play.

 

For about a month, I took Dean out alone and played with him. After it was clear that he understood playing with me, I started bringing the other dogs out after he had a chance to play with me a while and he naturally integrated into play with Speedy in the mix.

 

Not sure if it would work so seamlessly for you, but I would give it a try. I had rousing success with doing this.

[denice]

None of my dogs guard resources. Oh the pups go through a stage when growing and figuring out their place in the pack but it is done after that. Mostly they work out their differences on their own. Someone has a stick or finds a bone and either goes to a quiet spot to chew on it or a dog higher in the pack comes and the lower member gives it up.

They have a social order maintaining it well. They all know if I ask for something they have it is mine. I believe that respect keeps things a bit more steady also.

 

The problem with multiple dogs playing is they get excited and forget themselves. I see it in dog kennels when one walks by two dogs in a kennel will start to fight or a car pulls in a drive and the dogs start racing around the yard then an altercation starts. They get hyped up and turn into the dogs they are. I have seem some nasty dog fights with several ganging up on one. I had 2 6 mo old pups in an outdoor kennel walked sheep through the yard where they could see them and they got into a tussle. I just try not put them in a situation where that can happen, playing ball with more than 2 dogs out together allows for the possibility of 2 ganging up on one. I have been reminded on occasion for all the training and love and well behaved animals they are - they are still DOGS

 

Ian Dunbar is of the opinion that males deal with hierarchy differently than females. He says for the most part the boys do not try to one up each other and the oldest is in charge. Bitches do not have such a defined system.

 

Personal experience has been if the dogs ages vary by a few years things stay fairly consistent. If there is less than 1.5 to 2 years there is more turmoil..

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Denice wrote: "The problem with multiple dogs playing is they get excited and forget themselves."

 

I told my father-in-law, "We don't play fetch with the dogs." He, of course, knew better and sneakily played fetch with 4 Border Collies. When he came into the house and went in the bathroom, rummaging for bandages I told him to pour a little peroxide on it first.

 

Donald McCaig

[CptJack]

Over excitement leading to redirection is a thing. Can be people arriving, can be a ball, can be dinner time. It isn't a BC thing, though they're certainly more inclined to arousal than many breeds.

 

It's not necessarily a thing that has to happen. All it takes is some structure in the game to prevent entirely.

Just like you apply structure to other exciting events.

And if you can get two BC to work sheep together, and you can, or even just teach dogs to contain themselves while their food goes down (much easier), you can apply some rules to fetch with multiple dogs and have it be fine.

It, like most things, is a training issue. If you don't care to train it, fine, but that's all it is.

[rushdoggie]

Just like you apply structure to other exciting events.

 

And if you can get two BC to work sheep together, and you can, or even just teach dogs to contain themselves while their food to go down much easier), you can apply some rules to fetch with multiple dogs and have it be fine.

 

It, like most things, is a training issue. If you don't care to train it, fine, but that's all it is.

 

Yep.

 

Since 1992 or so I have had from 3 to 11 dogs at one time, mostly large breeds and most active fetch players. I have always played fetch with groups to save time, and have taught all of them to wait for their nae to chase the toy being thrown and not to grab someone else's. The BCs were always the easiest ones to teach this.

 

To the OP, I start with 2 dogs, usually one knows to wait for his name. I put a long line on the untrained one, stand on it, throw the toy a long way for the trained one, wait for them to get it, then attract the untrained one by wiggling and making their toy attractive, say their name and toss it a bit closer. If Untrained goes after Trained I step on the line, reel them in, and start over. If they can't keep it together, they go on a tie out or ex pen.

 

Given time, and making sure that you start slow and in a small enough space that you can keep the energy level calm enough to keep dogs under threshhold.

[CptJack]

This is fairly early days so it's not a far throw and there are no other dogs, but. USEFUL.

 

This is even earlier days. '

 

I should really get out and take video of the final version with another dog when my battery is charged.