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New here :) + Difficulty getting into the breed


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Lol they are the perfect size at least to me they are the perfect size! Been dying to find another little border collie. And the breeders I know who have smaller border collies tend to produce bigger border collies at least in my experience.

 

ETA: one benefit is they are easier to travel with. I can fit 3 smaller kennels in my car or I can fit 2 big kennels in my car. My smaller border collie I can double up. My bigger border collie take up the whole space. When staying or interacting in public people are more receptive to smaller dogs doing thing that is frown upon with bigger dogs. As in a place that isn't sure about dogs. My experience if you show them your little dogs being well behavior they will most likely allow you to stay with your dogs. When it your bigger dog they are a little more hesitant.

 

Another plus is less food/expense. 1-2 lbs of food vs 8-12oz of food.

 

ETA. When I was looking for places to rent. While they allowed multiple dogs they needed to smaller. My small border collie would of been fine.

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Well let's see, smaller border collies can run in agility at a smaller jump size, can be the very speedy height dog for flyball, etc. You get the picture. It's only a matter of time before someone starts producing mini border collies to truly meet those needs. Sad.

 

The breeder who is defending herself on this thread should be ashamed. No one here who actually uses and values these dogs for real work could be anything but disgusted by you and your kind.

 

J.

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Well, sounds like there is a market for mini-Border Collies for a number of reasons. And, Julie, I am sure there are already people who have jumped on that breeding bandwagon already - if there's a demand, there will be someone figuring out how to make money producing the product.

 

And the thought of seeking out smaller Border Collies and those that breed them so you can: have more; feed less; run competitively in lower performance sport classes; fit more crates in the car - well, I don't want to say what I think about that. Why not just try and breed a teacup Border Collie so you can have it all and fit it in your pocket? And maybe even teacup sheep so you can play at "herding" with your teacup Border Collie?

 

Too bad there are people who don't see the big picture because they are so involved in seeing just what they want.

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Which was my point. Although I certainly appreciate traveling with my smaller dogs vs my 95lbs German....my smaller Border Collies have to use totally different timing on my sheep who are all "normal" size plus two appear to be Barbados crosses. ...back to the whole working thing again.

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Well let's see, smaller border collies can run in agility at a smaller jump size, can be the very speedy height dog for flyball, etc. You get the picture. It's only a matter of time before someone starts producing mini border collies to

 

It's happening here already in the UK. BCs under 17in are in great demand amongst those desperate for agility success and some people are trying to breed for it. (Triple Medium World Champions Tasha Wise and Dizzy don't fall into that category. Dizzy just turned out to be small afaik. Not deliberate, but they obviously helped set the ball rolling.)

 

When I started in agility there was a category of dog called Midi (now Medium) - between 15 and 17in (jumping 20in) but there were no major competitions for them to aim at. Since all dogs were allowed to jump the top height of 30in most BC handlers did that, even if they had a dog that would measure into Midi. Small dogs do crop up naturally, of course, but there weren't many around.

 

Now a dog has to jump the height it is measured into but there are plenty of prestigious competitions for the Medium dogs between 13.75 and 17ins (jumping almost 18in) to aim for.

 

So now we have the makings of another category that is going to be dominated by BCs.

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My personal opinion is that if SIZE is an important criterion, then one should consider BREEDS that are already small, instead of taking a breed that is of a certain size and making it smaller so you can have "the best of both worlds." I realize that people have always and will continue to breed animals to suit their purposes, but I think it's sad that people are so ego-centric in this regard. If there were no mini breeds around, that would be one thing, but I understand, for example, that both papillons and shelties make great sport dogs and are already pint sized. Why not just choose one of those breeds? Sigh.

 

J.

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Well yeah, it's possible to breed for size, as breeders we can pretty much breed for what we want to, hence how all the different breeds came into being. The issue is, that we can't breed for size ahead of working ability without sacraficing. Now we could breed for working ability and in turn end up with dogs that are pretty consistent in their size, but if we wanted to suddenly go for smaller dogs we would then have to sacrafice in order to do so, basically lessoning our selection pressure on working ability so that we can increase our selection pressure on size, or color, or the amount of stop on the forehead or confirmation so that the dog accels in the breed ring or is even better suited to handle agility courses and on and on and on. We have to give up something to gain something else. Some are willing to do that while others are not.

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Is it possible to breed for size? I was under the impression it wasn't.

 

Even shelties go over size. Don't know about paps.

 

Of course, size is actually pretty easy to breed for - but that is only one part of the package and usually the other parts (the stuff you may want to keep - like working ability) suffer. Think of Poodles - standard, mini, toy and teacup.

 

I have heard that in Europe, paps are purposely being bred larger to be faster for agility.

 

Jovi

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Ever see a "mini Aussie"? They look like Pomeranians. I have seen two come into my work and would never have guessed they were Aussies. Weighed 15 lbs or so. There is no need to take a breed and do that to it. Just as it has been said already, get a small breed if you a small dog. Don't ruin one that already exists just to make it suit your needs or desires.

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Who is breeding the larger paps for agility? I always hear this but I can never find them. I'm just really curious.

 

Paps stay in size better than shelties if you breed for size. All my papillons have been between 6-10 lbs. Mia has a 12and something inch brother and you see that sometimes popping up. But when people aren't breeding to stay in that window, they range. The biggest papillon I've met is 22 lbs, smallest 3 lbs. We took my sheltie to a pap meetup and some of the paps were bigger than he was.

 

My shelties have ranged from 18 lbs, 27 lbs, and then 35 lbs. I've known many even smaller and larger. There is one here that is nearly the same height as my oldest papillon and I've known others pushing 50 lbs. It seems harder to breed shelties to stay in size but that's partially because there is collie so recently in their background. I've also heard it said that that 20-30 lb range is the hardest to stay in. Pyr sheps have the same sort of size variation 'issues' (if you want to call it that).

 

Sorry back to lurkerdom...

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I have seen small Aussies bred down to mini status that are actually true small Aussies. And I have seen the weird looking ones who claim to be. Sad.

 

I also have GSD's. My old gal is 95lbs. And huge. My youngster barely goes 60. Love her size but would not purposely breed for it.

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Who is breeding the larger paps for agility? I always hear this but I can never find them. I'm just really curious.

 

Paps stay in size better than shelties if you breed for size. All my papillons have been between 6-10 lbs. Mia has a 12and something inch brother and you see that sometimes popping up. But when people aren't breeding to stay in that window, they range. The biggest papillon I've met is 22 lbs, smallest 3 lbs. We took my sheltie to a pap meetup and some of the paps were bigger than he was.

 

 

I have no names of breeders of larger paps. I heard the 'breeding for larger paps for agility' from another agility handler who spoke authoritatively about the Europeans breeding larger paps. Did she even know what she was talking about? Don't know. It would not surprise me if someone was breeding for larger paps - or even smaller paps.

 

It sounds like you have come across quite a wide size range of paps.

 

Jovi

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I have no names of breeders of larger paps. I heard the 'breeding for larger paps for agility' from another agility handler who spoke authoritatively about the Europeans breeding larger paps. Did she even know what she was talking about? Don't know. It would not surprise me if someone was breeding for larger paps - or even smaller paps.

 

It sounds like you have come across quite a wide size range of paps.

 

Jovi

I am not into Paps (think they are very cool dogs just to small :) ) but I often heard at agility trials people talking about stronger boned paps been bread for agility and that some of the show lines could not stand up to the rigor of competition. Not that they were physically bigger just stronger.

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My dogs are all show lines, but some of the show lines are getting awfully small. Blegh. I'd love to find someone consistently producing 8-10 lbs at least. My 7 lb pap feels like a shrimp to me, can't imagine the even tinier ones.

 

 

Yep, which is sad considering the standard allows for a more substantial dog and a bigger size than what you see in the ring today. Even Kirby (the Westminster winner) was a more substantial dog (I have met him in person and he was the same build as my boy Harley who was a lot bigger than what I see today).

 

You can find a sturdier Pap. You have to look for someone whose main focus is not the show ring. That makes them "substandard" in some people's eyes, but I am very happy with my new boy who at 9 months is 11 lbs. Hes athletic with great structure, and small, but not delicate.

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If you have any suggestions, PM away. I probably won't get another papillon until one of mine go but I can't see myself without the little buggers.

 

My male is usually in the mid 8 lb range and we showed him (contract with the breeder). He looked like a moose compared to the other dogs and that was 6 years ago.

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