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I don't have cable any more so maybe Victoria S. has branched out in the past year. I've seen her work with very animal aggressive dogs, but never with any that were anywhere near as people aggressive as some of the ones Cesar has taken on.

 

In the shows filmed in Great Britain, she worked with a Dalmatian who bit people, sometimes you could tell he was going to bite and sometimes you couldn't. She also worked with a dog, a big northern breed, who bit the wife repeatedly, and the husband wouldn't believe that the dog was biting. There was a bulldog who bit the older son in a family, etc etc.

 

There was one show, filmed in the US, where a couple had 5 pugs and the husband was not feeding one of the pugs, because he hadn't wanted a 5th dog, and the wife had brought the dog home anyway. She laid down the law for the husband, but didn't say a word to the wife about going against the husband's wishes in adding a 5th animal. At least, not that they showed.

 

Ruth

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There was one show, filmed in the US, where a couple had 5 pugs and the husband was not feeding one of the pugs, because he hadn't wanted a 5th dog, and the wife had brought the dog home anyway. She laid down the law for the husband, but didn't say a word to the wife about going against the husband's wishes in adding a 5th animal. At least, not that they showed.

 

Ruth

 

Yup! That is the one I saw. I couldn't figure out why she was going after him after he had made his wishes clear to his wife before the fact. I thought it was very unfair to the husband - the wife chose the dog, she needed to care for and train it.

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Yup! That is the one I saw. I couldn't figure out why she was going after him after he had made his wishes clear to his wife before the fact. I thought it was very unfair to the husband - the wife chose the dog, she needed to care for and train it.

 

I thought that too, at first, but the VS did say something to the effect of "You're having problems with your wife - don't take it out on the dog." Basically, her concern was the dog and whether the husband wanted it or not, it was there and needed to be cared for. Still not completely satisfying, as I suppose the wife should have been able to care for it by herself, but I think VS's philosophy is that if the dog is in your house, you are responsible for it.

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In the shows filmed in Great Britain, she worked with a Dalmatian who bit people, sometimes you could tell he was going to bite and sometimes you couldn't. She also worked with a dog, a big northern breed, who bit the wife repeatedly, and the husband wouldn't believe that the dog was biting. There was a bulldog who bit the older son in a family, etc etc.

 

I remember the Siberian that was biting the girlfriend, leaving bruises and bullying her. Not good at all, potential to get much worse but not vicious. That's what I'm getting at -- Cesar takes on dogs that behave in a truly vicious manner. Not bullying a "weak" pack member or thinking he's in charge. Out and out wanting to rip apart another animal or a person. My parents had a Shepherd mix like that. Sweet as a lamb with the family and other animals. He'd run to me for help when the cats would push him away from his dinner bowl. But no one outside the family could touch him and he wasn't kidding around. If he bit, he'd draw blood and it was 100% predictable. It was like having a loaded gun laying around.

 

I haven't seen that level of disturbance with Victoria (in dogs, some of her people are plenty disturbed). Don't get me wrong. I like a lot of what she does with dogs but I haven't seen her take on the truly hard core cases that I've seen Cesar handle.

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Yes, I started typing an answer last night about the Husky on VS but then decided against it - like Liz said - that dog wasn't vicious, just an asshole acting up with the owner's girlfriend. Pretty sure the dog thought it was funny to bully her like that while the guy wasn't home to witness it.

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry for digging up an old thread, I was looking for something else and found this

 

I to am in the middle of rehabing a highly reactive dog, if I had filmed her when I first got her you would have said she was more red zone than any dog seen on CM, barking and lunging at a shape way on the horizon. Someone tried the finger jab on her when she was doing that and it was only cos I had the lead that the person didnt loose her finger with the speed Mia whipped round she had no idea what was behind her she was just going to bite it

 

Almost all of the episodes I have seen with CM and red zone dogs I have seen him take them over the edge where they are able to think about what they are doing and then physicaly fight them till they give up, the dog has learnt nothing there - they also are always on some form of a noose - either a prong, choke, slip, his illusion collar or in the episode with Shadow he just threaded the lead through the handle of the lead making a noose.

In the episode with JonBee the Jindo CM even notices the dog is fearfull, he states 'in cases of agression we often see fear first' then he goes ahead and floods the fearful dog

With the collie in the garage he even pulls the tail out from between its legs to make it feel happier!!

 

Most behaiourists deal with dogs at least as agressive as this - and they dont get bitten, CM often gets bitten

 

Here is a nice flashy vid of the APBC's positivly helping a red zone dog - compaired to CM 'helping'

http://benmcfuzzylugs.blogspot.com/2010/01...-millan-to.html

Pretty much EVERY profesional dog training and behaioural and rescue organisation in the UK is against CM, Denmark and Italy got his show pulled from the air and replaced with a more balanced trainer

 

CM uses all sorts of equipment in his show - there are even episodes where he uses the shock collar on a dog chasing the cat and he dosent even say he is using the collar, it wasnt till someone pointed it out you could see he has the controller hidden in his hand and each time he goes pssstt he zaps the dog - calm energy?? I have also been told (cant prove it) that before filming he takes the dogs away without the owners to condition them to his psst noise with the use of the shock collar

 

The dog in the garage, Shadow the 'wolfdog' and JonBee the jindo he later admited were cases he failed with - but they were still up there on his show with no mention of that - suggesting to people that they had worked

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I have also been told (cant prove it) that before filming he takes the dogs away without the owners to condition them to his psst noise with the use of the shock collar

 

 

Not that I'm for or against Milan but this seems a little far fetched to me. I have to have some kind of belief that the National Geographic channel wouldn't promote a TV show that followed such shady practices. and what about the dog owners? Are they completely unaware of what's going on if this is happening? I'm sure someone would have spoken out against it publicly.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm naive.

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I wouldn't be surprised though. I just found out yesterday that there are actually quite a few law suits going on right now against him and NG is keeping it quite "hush-hush" and they have their lawyers involved. NG actually sent clips of his show to well respected people in the behaviour/training industry asking for their opinion and every single one of them advised not to air his show.

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I wouldn't be surprised though. I just found out yesterday that there are actually quite a few law suits going on right now against him and NG is keeping it quite "hush-hush" and they have their lawyers involved. NG actually sent clips of his show to well respected people in the behaviour/training industry asking for their opinion and every single one of them advised not to air his show.

 

Do you have sources you can name for this?

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So I've just been googling and all I can find are a 2006 lawsuit against Milan that has since been settled and a lawsuit against him by his previous publicists also settled out of court.

 

I mean in this day and age when every little thing can be made public how can the National Geographic Channel be behind such a huge cover up?

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Long story short, I was talking with a CPDT trainer who is actively involved with their efforts to get this stuff under control. Technically it is hearsay since I can't post any links to the information, stuff like this gets removed from the internet as fast as it's posted. They are hoping for a huge fall out from it though.

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Long story short, I was talking with a CPDT trainer who is actively involved with their efforts to get this stuff under control. Technically it is hearsay

 

Technically? :rolleyes:

 

since I can't post any links to the information, stuff like this gets removed from the internet as fast as it's posted

 

It does?

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It is hearsay.

There have been various behind the scenes videos from 2 different trainers we've watched that were removed quite promptly. It is unfortunate that there is no information if this stuff is true because there is a lot of damage being done.

 

Lawsuits are a matter of public record. Why don't you ask the CPDT trainer what jurisdictions the lawsuits are pending in, and what their case numbers are? If s/he can't tell you, than I don't think it's really accurate to say you "just found out yesterday that there are actually quite a few law suits going on right now against him." That suggests that you know such lawsuits exist, when in fact you don't, right?

 

Not sure what the videos you refer to are, or what they have to do with info about lawsuits being removed from the internet.

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Apparently CM will soon sit down and discuss his methods with some 'humane' organizations. I got this info from a blog on Dog Star Daily.

 

Having started out training many years ago using CM type methods, I can attest that trainers using those methods do get bit more often than those using a more positive approach. I do think CM says some good things. His methods DO work, Unfortunately they require precise timing and an outstanding ability to 'read' a dog. Both of these are lacking in the majority of the public. Without those 2 things, people DO get bit, dogs DO get worse. It is for other trainers to pick up the pieces of his methods when they are improperly used.

 

Positive training will get desirable results with less harm done to the dog and less danger to the owners.

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Something a little weird is going on

I was on facebook and read an article about a organisation stating that CM's law people had threatened them with a lawsuit if they didnt retract their objections to his training methods

They said the layers have been in contact with lots of the UK organisations and said the same thing to them. Most dont have the funds to fight the legal team but a few have said they will fight

I went back to facebook to get the quote for here and its been taken down, as have LOTS of the Nat Geo clips of some of CM's more extreame shows - the one where he uses the shock collar on the dog with the cat, the JonBee episode, most of the Shadow clips are down again

I think something is about to happen??

 

Pam, I agree that in some cases CM type methods CAN work, but positive training works in ALL methods - you can clicker train anything from a goldfish to a husband :rolleyes: and all too often in CM shows I have seen him show less than perfect precise timing and his reading of dogs is questioned by many

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nothing like adding to a controversial thread as my first post....

 

My biggest concern with CM and his methods are that despite the "don't try this at home" warning on his TV show, some people will anyways:

 

Puppy Owner Pleads Not Guilty for Choking Animal to Death

SAN DIEGO - The La Jolla man accused of choking his 10-week-old puppy appeared in court Friday hours after the animal died.

 

David Hale Warner, 50, allegedly punished his chocolate lab for barking and nipping at his girlfriend. He plead not guilty to a charge of animal cruelty.

 

According to Dan DeSousa of the San Diego Department of Animal Services, the puppy -- a Chocolate Labrador Retriever named Coco -- went into cardiac arrest Friday morning and could not be saved.

 

In a published report by SDNN.com, Coco was brought to an emergency veterinary clinic by Warner, around 2 a.m. Wednesday morning. At that time, the puppy was unable to walk and had difficulty breathing. It had fluid in its lungs, red-tinged saliva and blue gums.

 

Later that morning, Warner returned to the veterinary hospital. He and his girlfriend were questioned by DAS Animal Control Officers. Warner admitted to choking the dog and was arrested by County Animal Control.

 

According to DeSousa, the couple was in bed with the dog when it nipped Warner's girlfriend on the nose. Later, while she was on the phone, the puppy began to bark, and Warner forcefully held the puppy down for about 20 seconds. That's when Warner realized the puppy needed to go to the veterinary hospital.

 

link to article

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nothing like adding to a controversial thread as my first post....

 

My biggest concern with CM and his methods are that despite the "don't try this at home" warning on his TV show, some people will anyways:

link to article

 

I don't think he just pinned that puppy and that resulted in it choking to death. I think he just said he was pinning it, so he could make it seem like an accident.

 

One abusive idiot who shouldn't own a dog has nothing to do with CM's training methods.

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I don't think he just pinned that puppy and that resulted in it choking to death. I think he just said he was pinning it, so he could make it seem like an accident.

 

One abusive idiot who shouldn't own a dog has nothing to do with CM's training methods.

 

I respectfully disagree. Like many posters I know there is good mixed in with the bad (dogs need exercise, dogs are not people), and you could say that any show that shows people that dogs can be trained if they are not behaving the way you want is positive.

 

That said, his methods are outdated, often inappropriate and many of his viewers believe that you must do these aggressive maneuvers to be "pack leader." This guy is an extreme example, for sure, but based on what I have seen when I have been in public by his devotees, not that extreme.

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Some of you might find this of interest:

 

http://www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php

 

Personally - although I applaud Cesar Milan's message that dogs need exercise, and that this can ameliorate many (though certainly not all) woes - I've found his shows provide very little of practical utility. I appreciate Victoria Stillwell's messages more. I know some argue that she deals with dogs with relatively minor issues - counter surfing, yapping, and the like. Yet, I have seen episodes where she dealt with dogs that were about to shed blood, big time. Yes, she berates owners when she feels they are culpable. But - she provides viewers with useful tools, often exposed in detail, that will help many dogs through the necessary rehab. They invariably involve positive approaches that are less likely to result in owners (or their friends) getting bitten. Her shows also indicate how much time elapses between the beginning of her intervention and the point where improvement is achieved. There's less "mystery" than with CM.

 

Just go to Wikipedia (not that they're the definitive source of all information) and search on CM. Then do the same for Victoria Stillwell. I know which legacy I'd prefer.

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Some of you might find this of interest:

 

http://www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php

 

Personally - although I applaud Cesar Milan's message that dogs need exercise, and that this can ameliorate many (though certainly not all) woes - I've found his shows provide very little of practical utility. I appreciate Victoria Stillwell's messages more. I know some argue that she deals with dogs with relatively minor issues - counter surfing, yapping, and the like. Yet, I have seen episodes where she dealt with dogs that were about to shed blood, big time. Yes, she berates owners when she feels they are culpable. But - she provides viewers with useful tools, often exposed in detail, that will help many dogs through the necessary rehab. They invariably involve positive approaches that are less likely to result in owners (or their friends) getting bitten. Her shows also indicate how much time elapses between the beginning of her intervention and the point where improvement is achieved. There's less "mystery" than with CM.

 

Just go to Wikipedia (not that they're the definitive source of all information) and search on CM. Then do the same for Victoria Stillwell. I know which legacy I'd prefer.

 

Thats a nice website.

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