Dog Whisperer

[Sue R]

I just watched the video. I have no personal opinion about CM and do see that opinions here vary wildly between a certain level of respect and total dislike.

 

I have a friend who took in a very reactive female Aussie. I am assuming the dog was fear-aggressive, and to other dogs, not people. Through the rescue network that my friend is part of, she was (or has become) aware that there are consistent behavioral problems in members of that litter. This dog was in rescue but my friend realized that she would not be placeable. So, Hope chose to work with her and one thing she did was to train (and I don't know just how) Hazel to lie down on her side and relax when a situation arose that might trigger her aggression.

 

Hazel will live out her life with Hope. She is loved, worked with, given a caring home and a satisfying life, and is an example of a dog with a problem that would most likely have resulted in euthanasia. But, in the right, educated, dedicated hands, she has a future that is happy and content - and has been trained to deal with her anxious nature in a calming manner.

 

Just another person teaching a similar approach to a an aggression problem.

[mbc1963]

I have enjoyed watching a lot of CM. I think he does right when he shows clueless owners that they have taught the bad behavior they see in their dogs. (I also like "SuperNanny," because she shows clueless parents the same thing about their kids!)

 

However... that dog in the end of the "imprisoned dog" video is in an absolute panic. The excessive panting is a dead giveaway. So, yes, the dog has learned not to bite Cesar, and that might be the beginning of a happier ending for him, but he's lying there terrified. I'll agree that the dog has put himself into this state of panicked surrender. But he is not in any way calm.

 

When I brought a behaviorist to my house for help with my reactive dog, the first thing he did was put the dog in the yard and then sit, very calmly, on the steps, to see what the dog would do. We sat there for maybe 45 minutes as Buddy barked and growled and ran-paced at a distance of maybe 20 feet. My trainer did NOT charge at Buddy, or cross his threshold of safety, or demand immediate interaction. Then we took a walk with the dog on leash and the behaviorist far enough away not to cause panic in the dog. Eventually, after Buddy was desensitized, the trainer reached a point where Buddy would accept tuna fish from his hands. Couple weeks later, we took puppy class - at a distance, with Buddy largely hiding under my chair, and leaving as soon as he got the least bit bug-eyed. In the last session, Buddy chose to walk to another owner and accept pats and kisses - the first time he had sought contact from another human. That was the beginning of a happy ending for my dog.

 

I'm sure that in our first session, my trainer could have muzzled Buddy and done the same thing Cesar did in this video - hell, I could have done it, too - but I'm not sure how that would have been better.

 

Mary

[JohnLloydJones]

However... that dog in the end of the "imprisoned dog" video is in an absolute panic. The excessive panting is a dead giveaway. So, yes, the dog has learned not to bite Cesar, and that might be the beginning of a happier ending for him, but he's lying there terrified. I'll agree that the dog has put himself into this state of panicked surrender. But he is not in any way calm.

Well, the dog didn't choose to be muzzled and kept in the garage. Nor did he choose to have CM (plus photographer) invade his space and harass him. So I'm not completely sure what people mean when they say the dog put himself in that state.

 

My concern with the video clip -- and I understand it's an extract, so valuable context may be missing -- is what is it's point? The few CM video's I have seen (and I have never seen him on TV) have little instructional value; they are simply a form of entertainment, where the audience is expected to wowed by CM's skill. Entertainment for the sake of entertainment is fine, of course. I am concerned that people who don't know what's going on will try to emulate what they see that CM does, without any of CM's understanding of dogs or any clue what he was trying to do.

[mum24dog]

I think he does right when he shows clueless owners that they have taught the bad behavior they see in their dogs.

 

The clueless leading the clueless unfortunately - the danger of the cult of Cesar.

Neither the owners nor the viewers can tell whether he his talking garbage (a lot of the time) or stating the obvious to anyone with half an ounce of common sense.

He does a lot of dangerous things that get even him bitten and will be copied by the public, as I see on a daily basis. On screen disclaimer of "Don't try this at home" or not, it is totally irresponsible.

 

I love this clip (sorry - can't help the feeling of Schadenfreude) -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofOCYXkU39U

 

For those who have no opinion on him or like him, all these professional organisations are clear on why he is a menace -

 

http://www.fun4fido.co.uk/blog/welfare-in-dog-training.html

 

Bear in mind that their members have many years of experience and knowledge behind them - rather more than a former dog groomer turned TV star.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Maybe forcing one's presence on a dog is a cruelty, but I don't see it that way. The dog's only chance, IMHO, is to learn that no matter how nasty he gets, the person he wants to back off isn't going to do it anymore.

 

No - he learns that CM isn't going to back off. The next person could be in even more danger. He hasn't cured the behaviour, he has suppressed it in his presence. Pressure builds up and one day is likely to blow.

I have read that these owners couldn't carry through what he told them to do with the dog and got rid of it.

 

Most trainers wouldn't even attempt to help a dog like that, or if they did, they would do more heinous things than anything in that video.

 

You are so wrong. Firstly, we only have CM's version of what the dog was like unprovoked and he does have a great tendency to exaggeration. Secondly, dealing with dog aggression puts food on the table for real canine behaviourists who understand that you do not have to bully a dog to rehabilitate it, not self-styled ones like CM who make a virtue out of ignorance.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Like I said, I think he's willing to go out on a limb and try about anything that doesn't "harm" a dog which to me means he's still learning and that's all one can ask of a good trainier.

 

Accepting invitations that have been made to go and learn about canine body language would be a start.

No apologies for being cynical, but what he has learned is that there is a huge body of respected and knowledgable opinion (unfortunately without the TV coverage he gets) that can quote chapter and verse to rubbish many of his actions and concocted theories. He has also learned that you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Knowing that and to try and deflect criticism his more recent shows have more often portrayed him in a softer light.

Interesting that NG have pulled on line clips that have been used against him. What are they ashamed of? Can he not defend his actions?

 

On the BBC he claimed that the AHA now agreed that his methods weren't cruel - vehemenently denied by the AHA who invited him to visit and be shown effective and long term behavioural modification.

I haven't heard that he has accepted the invite.

 

I'm not being nationalistic here, but your comment about "still learning" applies to Victoria Stilwell. In her first UK series there were aspects that could be criticised (although mild) and it is clear from what she does now that she has taken the time and trouble to avail herself of up to date knowledge and practices. She's an ex actress turned TV personality, but her methods stand scrutiny (even if her personality grates sometimes). Interestingly, she doesn't need a warning not to try this at home.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

It's not easy to ever trust such a dog, and as I said, I am not the average pet owner.

J.

 

No it isn't. Our BC used to bite when we got him and I'm still alert to when he's feeling pressure that might push him to do it again. He doesn't bite any more because we make sure he isn't pushed into feeling the need to.

We didn't punish or bully him, just learned other ways of doing things and now he's as safe as most dogs, which all have the potential to bite if pressed hard enough. It's easy to forget that potential if a dog never has bitten, not so easy when you've had the evidence.

 

Pam

[Jeanne Joy]

I don't follow Cesar and I haven't read his books, but I watched the clip. I think Jamie hit the nail on the head…surrender would be a better choice of words to explain what it appears Millan is working towards. Being kept in a garage doesn't make a dog fear aggressive or dominant-aggressive. While inexperience can certainly contribute to bad behavior, the dog may have had a serious temperament issues to begin with. Whatever the dog's problems areat this stagehe is a dangerous animal. Even with serious rehabilitation (and even a new environment) this dog may always be a liability. While this short clip may not be pretty to watch, neither is a trip to the emergency room or the thought of euthanasia. There are just some situations you can't click and treat your way out of.

[Liz P]

Victoria Stilwell... her methods stand scrutiny (even if her personality grates sometimes). Interestingly, she doesn't need a warning not to try this at home.

 

Pam

 

Just wanted to put that last sentence in bold type.

[Smokjbc]

There were so many comments here- and I could not watch the links, the first one completely froze up my computer and gave it the black screen of death (which is not typical).

 

However- this always comes up about the warning and I just don't believe in protecting the public from themselves. If an idiot chooses to ignore the warning, which strongly insists that professional help is the way to go, then too bad. I'm tired of living in a nanny state, and this is no exception. I have only watch Stillwell a few times, but haven't seen her deal with anything close to the types of dogs Cesar works with- but maybe I missed them.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on Cesar's ignorance- I think he's demonstrated quite well that he is able to read dogs body language, it's one of the things about him that I would say is obvious, but people see what they want to see. If you have a lot invested in the knowledge and success of behaviorists, you might distrust anyone without a Phd.. I know too many people in the stockdog world that are exceptional trainers of dogs without a degree, so I tend to look at results and the message that the person is trying to convey. I don't see what is wrong with a very public show encouraging people to set up a structure , exercise their dog, and not baby them. I don't see anything in the video in question that qualifies as "bullying" and whether the dog chose to be there or not is a non-issue. Obviously, no one could work with the dog without imposing some kind of presence on the dog. Since when do we let dog's dictate whether they will allow us to handle them or not?

 

I am not suprised that it wasn't a lasting fix with the dog in the garage- which goes back to my complaint about Cesar- I think that a dialogue should be made that if the owners are not committed to doing whatever it takes (and those owners mentioned trying several people, btw- Cesar was not their first stop), that the dog SHOULD NOT be rehomed, but instead PTS. I hope that is what happened, unless they found a very unique placement for him.

 

Lastly, I did have a complaint about the episode last night, it's too bad that the border collie was shown "herding" because it was exactly the same kind of behavior the dog exhibited on the waves. We should be a little worried about "herding" being represented as wild dog randomly (and rather hard) gripping sheep hocks.

[Kelliwic Border Collies]

I only got National Geographic channel a few months ago. Till then I'd only seen a couple of episodes. I don't watch the show regularly, but now I've seen at least several more episodes. It seems to me that sometimes he's very observant of dog body language and other signals, and at other times he appears oblivious. Sometimes I agree with what he does, and other times I'm a little freaked out by the thought of how many people watching will try to follow the example of a really awful technique.

 

But there are two things that are really, really important to "average pet owners" that come up in his show over and over: 1) It's a DOG, not a human/child/baby. Treat it like a DOG. 2) Give it regular exercise. He also talks about mental stimulation sometimes, but seems to skim over that in a way that can be missed if you're not really thinking about what he's saying. I think these things are important for a wide range of pet owners to hear and I'm glad he says them.

[Lizmo]

I don't have any thing to say about the video posted, but does anyone know where CM got his training from? Or is he self-taught?

[geonni banner]

I have enjoyed watching a lot of CM. I think he does right when he shows clueless owners that they have taught the bad behavior they see in their dogs. (I also like "SuperNanny," because she shows clueless parents the same thing about their kids!)

 

However... that dog in the end of the "imprisoned dog" video is in an absolute panic. The excessive panting is a dead giveaway. So, yes, the dog has learned not to bite Cesar, and that might be the beginning of a happier ending for him, but he's lying there terrified. I'll agree that the dog has put himself into this state of panicked surrender. But he is not in any way calm.

When I brought a behaviorist to my house for help with my reactive dog, the first thing he did was put the dog in the yard and then sit, very calmly, on the steps, to see what the dog would do. We sat there for maybe 45 minutes as Buddy barked and growled and ran-paced at a distance of maybe 20 feet. My trainer did NOT charge at Buddy, or cross his threshold of safety, or demand immediate interaction. Then we took a walk with the dog on leash and the behaviorist far enough away not to cause panic in the dog. Eventually, after Buddy was desensitized, the trainer reached a point where Buddy would accept tuna fish from his hands. Couple weeks later, we took puppy class - at a distance, with Buddy largely hiding under my chair, and leaving as soon as he got the least bit bug-eyed. In the last session, Buddy chose to walk to another owner and accept pats and kisses - the first time he had sought contact from another human. That was the beginning of a happy ending for my dog.

 

I'm sure that in our first session, my trainer could have muzzled Buddy and done the same thing Cesar did in this video - hell, I could have done it, too - but I'm not sure how that would have been better.

 

Mary

 

Something I've been wondering about the CM clip...

 

Yes, the dog was panting and terrified. (He did seem fractionally calmer to me when he had been down for a bit.) But if the dog was so extremely fear aggressive, would it not be true that having a "strange" person in his place of confinement - whatever they were doing - would likely trigger the panting, and other signs of anxiety? What CM did to the dog could, I think, be called a sort of "flooding" technique, and flooding is notorious for backfiring. If a another person should attempt to try what C did with that dog, and ambulance might have been needed.

But then again, if the owners were gradually brought into the interaction over time w/C present, I think that the dog could eventually get past the stress of the experience and begin to respond without fear to being handled. My guess is that the dog had been fear-aggressive for a long time, so anything that was a change from what he was used to in his 10-month confinement in the garage would be likely to provoke a reaction of extreme fear - hence the panting, stiffness, eye-rolling, etc.

The muzzle removed the option of biting for the dog, so he was forced to respond in a different way to being handled. Although there is a risk that the dog could simply shut down until the muzzle was removed, I think it may have also created a situation in which he would be forced to "try something else" as a way of responding to the stress of being handled.

 

That said, if I found myself with a dog with that much fear-aggression, I would probably put him down. Not because there was "no hope" for him, but because I personally would not have the resources - emotional or financial (for an appropriate trainer/behaviorist) to rehabilitate such a damaged animal.

[stockdogranch]

According to his first book, he seems to be mostly self-taught, based on his observations of dog behavior his entire life.

 

I'll just add one thing here, that so many people seem to miss when either watching or talking about CM and his methods (I sometimes wonder if people who slam him have ever really watched him or listened to what he says). He's all about energy--the energy the handler is giving off, the energy the dog is giving off, and the energy of any other dogs or people who might be in the picture. It's really pretty simple. It's NOT about physical force, or bullying, or any of the other negative things his opponents usually spout. It's about the handler being in a state of mind to help the dog achieve a calmer state of mind--a state of mind that is receptive to thinking and learning.

 

Perfect example: So yesterday, a couple brought their 18 month old working bred border collie over to basically interview me to see if they might think I would be a suitable person to train their dog for stock work. The dog was bred by another local trainer, one who has a reputation for being "heavy handed" with dogs, although I've never seen this person train, so cannot state that this is a fact (but rumors abound, many from reputable sources). The couple is in their 60s, and not in physical shape to deal with a working-bred border collie, so I am not sure why they even *have* this dog, but anyway, they come in the gate, with the leash wrapped around the man's hand a gazillion times, doing the "marlin fishing" thing--you know, where the dog is lunging and pulling and writhing around on the other end of the leash. Can't be pleasant. We sit and talk for a bit, and I become aware that the lady is afraid of "abusive" techniques for training this dog. The dog has been on sheep a handful of times with the breeder/trainer in the past, and probably handled a bit "roughly," so the lady asks if I "hit" a dog in training and so on. I answer as best I can, but I know the best thing I can do is show her. So I take the dog for a very brief walk (like out 20 feet and then back) before we go into the pen with the sheep. Initially, the dog starts with his routine--pulling, etc. So I just very calmly and quietly remind him that he is with me, I ask him to lie down a few times on our little walk (yes, I use the step on the leash (gently) method as I ask for the down). After maybe twice of stepping on the leash, while asking for the down in a voice barely above a whisper, he's going down when I ask right away. As we are walking toward the pen with the sheep, the dog is on a loose lead, glancing up at me every few steps. I know he's going to be a willing partner from here on. We go in and work the sheep, he stays wide enough to not harrass them, he takes the down when asked (again, in that almost-whisper voice), and all is well. A nice little dog, ready to use his brain to learn, and very willing to please the handler.

 

Was that CM methodology? Sure, insofar as I approached the dog with what Cesar calls "calm assertive" energy. I merely let the dog know, without saying or even really doing anything, that I was not going to let him get away with any crap, but there was never anything forceful about the way I handled the dog. It was strictly the energy I had, and the dog got it immediately. But guess what? It's also the exact same thing JK does with a dog who's brain isn't in "thinking" mode. Get the dog's attention in a calm way first, re-boot the brain if necessary so it can think and learn, and proceed with your lesson.

 

As for the video clip--didn't watch it (also got the black screen of death), just my general comment re: CM,

 

A

[desertranger]

Yes, the dog did it to himself- didn't you see the dog actual relax at the beginning? Cesar tried to reward him and the dog responded to it by going for his face. So yes, I stand by my statement. The dog did it to himself.

 

I don't think anyone believes that dog will ever be cured. But it's possible the dog can be shown that his behavior no longer gets him the result he wanted. I think I've seen Cesar say before that you will always have to be in control of that behavior- he uses the word "rehab" and just like an alcoholic- it will just take one successful aggressive act- for a dog to want that feeling of success (I try to bite- "scary" person goes away) again.

 

My complaint regarding Cesar is opposite of most people, I think he tries too hard to help dogs that are too dangerous to live in their current situations and impossible to place. One episode at the beginning of the series involved a small child in the house with a very reactive/aggressive older dog. I would have liked him to say "hey, your three year old is more important than keeping alive a dog that might take her face off". But that's just me ...

 

The dog did nothing himself except retreat into place inside. did you look at his face, his posture. He was not only terrified but panicked, anxeity ridden ad more. As for CMs methods of "Rehab" with that dog I have a special place in the desert for him, right next the dogs owners and Joihn Katz where they can keep each oterh company in the heat.

 

I didn't see anything even close to an attempt to calm the dog down. Add to the fact cameras and the owners. I've dealt wiatha coujple of dogs like that. A friends Puli named Roman and my own BC Chelsea (from Arthur Allen, not what followed.) In Roman's case he had been isolated and the only person who coujld approach him was me. After 6 months of trying to work with he he was sadly PTS. Chelsea on the other hand had many of the same problems that dog exhinited. I don't know where they came from since we got her at 12 wks. She started very poor behavior from day one. Biting, snapping, growling, fearfulness, anxiety and in the 4 yrs we had her she calmed down enoujg so she could be part of the family. We never were able to get it all out, only about 80-85%. Her fears overcame her one day that ended in her tragic death. I shall spare you the details as I am already having a problem with the memory. I never wrote Chel off. I certainly did better than CM.

[Sue R]

Was that CM methodology? Sure, insofar as I approached the dog with what Cesar calls "calm assertive" energy. I merely let the dog know, without saying or even really doing anything, that I was not going to let him get away with any crap, but there was never anything forceful about the way I handled the dog. It was strictly the energy I had, and the dog got it immediately. But guess what? It's also the exact same thing JK does with a dog who's brain isn't in "thinking" mode. Get the dog's attention in a calm way first, re-boot the brain if necessary so it can think and learn, and proceed with your lesson.

A

I was thinking JK as I read what you did. If the dog can't think, it's not going to learn anything worthwhile or be able to listen to you. What I loved when Kathy worked with Dan was when she said she could see him transitioning to being a thinking dog. That is absolutely vital.

[Ooky]

I agree with Mary on the parallels between CM's show and Supernanny-type shows: they are most useful to the people onscreen and the home audience when you are dealing with a normal dog or child that has just been completely mishandled by clueless people - spoiled-but-also-ignored, never told no, allowed to run things (not a dominance thing, but we all know dogs and children should not be in charge of the house), lack of or completely inconsistent rules. Then, there is some chance of people learning some very basic ideas that can improve everyone's dog- or kid-experience dramatically, including the children and dogs themselves.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, I think CM has an amazing way with abnormal, reactive dogs, and I also agree VS doesn't touch these types so the comparison there is totally misleading. I think the dogs are mostly ok with him, and he does seem to be able to use his energy in remarkable ways, but it's entertainment, like watching a lion tamer. Not educational. The lion is ok when its with the trainer but that is not going to translate when normal people deal with the animal, and in some cases, normal people probably simply lack the skills to EVER deal with the animal and it would be better off being responsibly rehomed or euthanized. In a very few cases, I think euthanasia IS kinder, because the animal is not happy and never will be, even if it is being managed.

 

As for stuff in the middle, like his use of flooding: I guess I used to think much more critically of flooding than I do now. I certainly don't think it works in all cases; in fact it may only work in certain situations. But I also can't accept that it NEVER works. Here I am talking about when he uses flooding to get a dog over its fear of walking on slippery floors or going up a flight of stairs. By using his energy, lending his energy to the dog, and making the dog do these things by being calm and relaxed but not budging in his insistence that they will do them, I think he does break mental barriers sometimes. I've seen it in my own dog with stockwork: D Fisher got real tough (NOT abusive) with my dog the last time we saw him, insisting on the right mindset that Sue and Anna describe and insisting he do correct aways. He had a meltdown, but DF pushed him through it basically through a flooding technique. At one point, he ran away rather than be correct, which DF wouldn't abide. But, through this, Odin DID learn that it wouldn't kill him to be in the right mindset - and to trust us that the sheep would be better if he kept the correct distance and do an away correctly. He was ecstatic when he finally got it right and the sheep were right and we were all happy with him - it was a HUGE epiphany and personal victory for him, you could tell! And the next time we were out, he was much better both mentally in general and in his aways and ability to handle more distance - it did take and wasn't just a short term solution that will build up to bite us later. But I also think any good stockdog or other trainer also knows there is a point when pushing too much or getting too hard with a dog is going to be counterproductive as well.

[Shetlander]

I'm not being nationalistic here, but your comment about "still learning" applies to Victoria Stilwell. In her first UK series there were aspects that could be criticised (although mild) and it is clear from what she does now that she has taken the time and trouble to avail herself of up to date knowledge and practices. She's an ex actress turned TV personality, but her methods stand scrutiny (even if her personality grates sometimes). Interestingly, she doesn't need a warning not to try this at home.

 

I like Victoria Stilwell a lot, especially when she stopped yelling at the owners so much. I am probably closer to her in training and interaction than Cesar. However, she doesn't take on anywhere near the level of aggressive (towards animals or humans), disturbed dogs that Cesar does.

 

Then again, Victoria does however take on a larger percentage of disturbed people. Sometimes I found it hard to watch owners who were in significant need of mental health treatment.

 

On a lighter note, I still smile whenever I think of that absolutely awful, incredibly adorable Teddy Pom Pom and how she helped get his family on a little bit more of an even keel.

[geonni banner]

I agree with Mary on the parallels between CM's show and Supernanny-type shows: they are most useful to the people onscreen and the home audience when you are dealing with a normal dog or child that has just been completely mishandled by clueless people - spoiled-but-also-ignored, never told no, allowed to run things (not a dominance thing, but we all know dogs and children should not be in charge of the house), lack of or completely inconsistent rules. Then, there is some chance of people learning some very basic ideas that can improve everyone's dog- or kid-experience dramatically, including the children and dogs themselves.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, I think CM has an amazing way with abnormal, reactive dogs, and I also agree VS doesn't touch these types so the comparison there is totally misleading. I think the dogs are mostly ok with him, and he does seem to be able to use his energy in remarkable ways, but it's entertainment, like watching a lion tamer. Not educational. The lion is ok when its with the trainer but that is not going to translate when normal people deal with the animal, and in some cases, normal people probably simply lack the skills to EVER deal with the animal and it would be better off being responsibly rehomed or euthanized. In a very few cases, I think euthanasia IS kinder, because the animal is not happy and never will be, even if it is being managed.

 

As for stuff in the middle, like his use of flooding: I guess I used to think much more critically of flooding than I do now. I certainly don't think it works in all cases; in fact it may only work in certain situations. But I also can't accept that it NEVER works. Here I am talking about when he uses flooding to get a dog over its fear of walking on slippery floors or going up a flight of stairs. By using his energy, lending his energy to the dog, and making the dog do these things by being calm and relaxed but not budging in his insistence that they will do them, I think he does break mental barriers sometimes. I've seen it in my own dog with stockwork: D Fisher got real tough (NOT abusive) with my dog the last time we saw him, insisting on the right mindset that Sue and Anna describe and insisting he do correct aways. He had a meltdown, but DF pushed him through it basically through a flooding technique. At one point, he ran away rather than be correct, which DF wouldn't abide. But, through this, Odin DID learn that it wouldn't kill him to be in the right mindset - and to trust us that the sheep would be better if he kept the correct distance and do an away correctly. He was ecstatic when he finally got it right and the sheep were right and we were all happy with him - it was a HUGE epiphany and personal victory for him, you could tell! And the next time we were out, he was much better both mentally in general and in his aways and ability to handle more distance - it did take and wasn't just a short term solution that will build up to bite us later. But I also think any good stockdog or other trainer also knows there is a point when pushing too much or getting too hard with a dog is going to be counterproductive as well.

 

Woo-hoo! Atta Ooky! Err.. I mean, yeah, what she said...

[Smokjbc]

As for CMs methods of "Rehab" with that dog I have a special place in the desert for him, right next the dogs owners and Joihn Katz where they can keep each oterh company in the heat.

 

 

Wow- you'd object to a guy putting his hands on a dog and SLOWLY turning him onto his side, but it's ok to wish death!! on people who do things you don't agree with? I can't stand Jon Katz, think he's an idiot- but I don't wish death on him. I don't think we could any common ground on this issue if you would wish even injury, let alone death and an unmarked grave, on people who have different training methods than you do. Or torture, if what you mean you'd just tie the four of the them to a joshua tree .

 

Chelsea on the other hand had many of the same problems that dog exhinited. I don't know where they came from since we got her at 12 wks. She started very poor behavior from day one. Biting, snapping, growling, fearfulness, anxiety and in the 4 yrs we had her she calmed down enoujg so she could be part of the family. We never were able to get it all out, only about 80-85%. Her fears overcame her one day that ended in her tragic death. I shall spare you the details as I am already having a problem with the memory. I never wrote Chel off. I certainly did better than CM.

 

I'm not sure how you could make that judgement, but I am sorry that you had to go through that and for your loss.

We have a snarly little bugger ourselves, he has not bitten anyone for over 6 years, but it isn't anything that special that we do except for impose very strict boundaries, give him activities/exercise and avoid situations that we can't control. I don't think most of what Cesar does is rocket science either- but he is very good at communicating it and coaching people on what the best approach is.

[ErinKate]

I'm with Jamie on CM.

I think he does an amazing job with the clueless public, not all the time but he doesn't give up easily. I've also watched him evolve into using all kinds of methods. He's not steadfast in his ways. I notice in more recent episodes he turns to holistic healing and even accupunture.

 

I've also seen him use treat based methods when the situation calls for it. Like I said, I think he's willing to go out on a limb and try about anything that doesn't "harm" a dog which to me means he's still learning and that's all one can ask of a good trainier.

 

If he helps half the dogs we see him work with I'd call him pretty successful.

 

I've seen way worse been done to a dog in the name of stockdog training, not really training IMO but none the less that's what it's called.

 

If you don't like his methods don't use them, if they bother you to see, don't watch them.

JMHO

 

totally ditto!

[ErinKate]

According to his first book, he seems to be mostly self-taught, based on his observations of dog behavior his entire life.

 

I'll just add one thing here, that so many people seem to miss when either watching or talking about CM and his methods (I sometimes wonder if people who slam him have ever really watched him or listened to what he says). He's all about energy--the energy the handler is giving off, the energy the dog is giving off, and the energy of any other dogs or people who might be in the picture. It's really pretty simple. It's NOT about physical force, or bullying, or any of the other negative things his opponents usually spout. It's about the handler being in a state of mind to help the dog achieve a calmer state of mind--a state of mind that is receptive to thinking and learning.

 

also, ditto

 

Disclaimer, I also was unable to view the video.

[Amelia]

but he does very calmly insist at times that a dog lie on its side, stop barking, quit threatening other dogs, walk on leash calmly, etc

 

And if any of these things had been insisted on while the dog was growing up, things would have turned out far better for the dog.

 

I have no opinion on Cesar, but I will say that I watched the video, and the most important information I heard was him say words to the effect that "he doesn't take it (dog's aggression,) personally." It didn't hurt his feeling, he didn't get mad or irritated or angry. He simply made the dog become and remain submissive to him as gently as possible for a period of time. Was the dog calm and relaxed? As calm and relaxed as it could be after just 10 minutes. Will one session, or even 10 for that matter, with Cesar undue years of denial and isolation? Absolutely not and the only thing that would, imo, would be for the dog to be taken from that home where I would bet a lot of money the dog's behavior was created and enabled, and placed in one where people aren't afraid to set limits of acceptable behavior.

 

I have watched a few, and It seems to me that Cesar's televised sessions aren't valuable as tools to fix a particular dog, but as a means to get us thinking about how we interact with ours. And maybe about how our actions, or lack of them cause the very problems he is called out to solve. That's what I see when I watch them anyway.

 

As far as his background and what the Doctors say, I'm more likely to take the advice of someone with real-life, hands-on experience handling a multitude of different dogs, then those who have only studied it.

 

Cheers all

[Blackdawgs]

We have a snarly little bugger ourselves, he has not bitten anyone for over 6 years, but it isn't anything that special that we do except for impose very strict boundaries, give him activities/exercise and avoid situations that we can't control.

 

This pretty is pretty much it in a nutshell--the extension of this being not putting the dog in a bad situation to begin with.

 

I'm not a fan of CM and was repulsed by the video. I do agree that he is quite good at reading body language, so good that he knows just which buttoms to push in order to agitate the dog. The person, who referred to CM as a "lion tamer" hit the nail on the head. No reputable behaviorist or modern trainer would ever have put that dog in that situation to begin with, and as another poster described would have observed the dog at a distance gradually working up to a physical interaction--but that would be pretty boring tv.

 

The "relaxation" that was observed in the beginning of the video were actually calming signals--the dog sitting quietly and very deliberately looking away from CM 2-3 times, but yet CM re-antagonized the dog, who was very politely asking to be left alone, by reaching towards its nose. (For more about calming signals see here: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/calmingsignals.html)

 

There are several people on this board including myself, who have rehabbed, fear aggressive dogs with the help of veterinary behaviorists. My dog used to go ballistic around other dogs ("red zone" as CM would say). Behavioral work is not training, it is about teaching the dog coping skills and more acceptable behaviors, and changing negative associations to positive associations, while keeping the dog "underthreshold", so it can think and learn rather than react. With my dog, it has been a long, slow process, and she is significantly improved. Never did we perform anything simliar to the exorcism-like procedures that are observed with CM. My dog's rehab would have made for pretty boring tv and would have put the worst insomnianc on the planet to sleep.

 

When watching that video, ask your selves what did that dog learn? Will the observed behavior change be long-lasting and maintainable by the owner?

 

When I see that video, I see a dog whose fear of humans has only been reinforced by the "Dog Whisperer".

[Amelia]

Blackdawgs, my questions are not rhetorical or cynical in any way. I'm truly interested. How did your dog become "fear-agressive" to begin with? How old was the dog when you began rehab? How long did it take for the rehab and what methods were used?

Thank you in advance for your answers.