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Crossroad - Agility or Herding?


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I'll try to keep this short. I'm at a point where I need to decide whether or not to pursue working stock and trialing or agility with Sienna. I live in the city so finding sheep much less someone nearby that will train is somewhat difficult. Earlier this year I took some herding lessons but didn't really like the trainer. I love my agility trainer and progression has been going OK. But for me personally, I'm more turned on to and interested in herding. I found another trainer last week and spent 4 hours Saturday at her farm. She was great! I got to see her work her dogs(Aussies), and I think I had to pick my jaw off the ground. She asked all the right questions, was very direct and up front with me, and concisely explained handler/dog techniques.

 

However (and I know I may sound green) she was really rough with her stock and dogs. When we first started, Sienna would not do a down on command. "where's my treat?" So she told me we can't have this and before we even entered the pen, we talked about pressure. She would say down, Sienna wouldn't, so she snapped her foot down on the lead, jerking her to the ground. If her butt was still up, she would wait until there was a full down. She always praised and backed off(pressure) once she got the desired behavior. She told me to practice this at home along with "back" and "out" and that she does this with all her dogs using a choke collar. She said it's important because the dogs must listen because the dog, stock or handler could get hurt. By the end of it, Sienna was down quicker than I've ever seen, and she didn't seem too disturbed. She also turned on fairly well, better than last time.

 

So basically, this lady means business when working dogs, I understand because this is her livelihood. She has invited me to her clinic in December and a trial in November to observe. I am seriously interested, but I'm not so sure if I should be put off by her aggressiveness. I can't afford and don't have time to take on both herding and agility. I know agility would be more fun, but I think herding would be more fulfilling. I'm hoping some of you could help shed some light... much thanks!

 

Richard

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hi

I think you should decide where you want to be a year from now? Do you want to be doing agility, or herding or both? You can do both- though some will tell you it's not possible. As for the instructor- I always make sure the instructor knows that my dog is soft (even if that isn't necessarily the case), as I don't want someone manhandling my dog. One thing you can do is make sure YOU are the one handling your dog, and get those solid downs and stays-before you train on the stock. Where are you located? There may be other trainers to chose from as well.

Julie

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I agree, and I think she was trying to get that point across to me by giving me "homework." I live in Austin, TX and I have done a lot of looking around, mostly on the internet. I have called a lot of obedience/agility trainers and none really have a clue. I've also found a few herding associations here in Texas and they mention only two in my area, both of which I have seen. A year from now, I'd like to be working stock, maybe trialing, but that may be too optimistic. I can't do both right now because I can't afford it and don't have the time.

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Take a look at the Texas Sheep/Cattle Dog Association and Texas Hill Country Stock Dog Association websites. I see a Kathy Knox clinic coming up in Florence, TX.

 

One spot open

December 9-10 - Kathy Knox Clinic

Sponsored by THCSDA

Location: Florence, Texas

Contact Jo Anne Noble jnoble@gvtc.com

#830-336-2889

or go to www.thcsda.org

 

and a stockdog trial at the same farm on Nov 11. I highly recommend you go to the trial to watch and ask around for additional trainers in your area.

 

Mark

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Mark, thanks... she also mentioned this clinic as well during our first meeting.

 

Also, the Texas Hill Country Stock Dog Assoc. site is where I found the 2 trainers in my area.

 

But you're right, I probably should check out a trial. November 11th, not too far away.

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I asked Dazzy's breeder (she trains stock dogs) and she said that Agility and herding go fine together. Agility is a lot of distance/directional commands. We are (if I get a spare minute :rolleyes: ) going to do both.

 

Competition Obedience and herding don't go quite so great (or so it has been said) but I think that Agility and herding both can work! I know a lot that do both!

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Originally posted by Kat's Dogs:

Competition Obedience and herding don't go quite so great (or so it has been said) but I think that Agility and herding both can work! I know a lot that do both!

Definitely not true - two of my dogs were multiple High in Trial obedience dogs and were great on their sheep. My other one got her OTCH with high scores on limited showing, and is an agility champion in two organizations ,a MAD in USDAA and she is still working her sheep without slowing down at 13 years old, much to the chagrin of the sheep. DOing competitive obedience and working stock, is no different than doing agility or flyball and working stock.

 

All my dogs have worked their sheep (and some of them have worked cattle), competed in obedience, flyball and agility all at the same time.

 

I know often the argument is that the focus required for competitive obedience will make dogs not want to leave their handler or look too much for the handler for direction, but personally I have never found that to be the case with my dogs, or other people's dogs that I train with.

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My take on running in multiple venues comes down to time and desired level of competence. In order to be competitive at the level I desire, I don't have the time to train and compete in multiple venues.

 

IMHO If you work for a living you won't have enough time to train in herding and another venue and still be able to be competitive in Open (herding).

 

Mark

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I know I could possibly do both, but I'm trying to decide on one or the other for reasons mentioned above. I guess what I am asking is if it is uncommon for herding training methods to be so strict. Agility training is 'fun' and more positive it seems.

 

I called the trial admin and signed up to be a volunteer next weekend... looking forward to it!

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Northof49, I am glad to hear it. The fact that they didn't go well is just what I have heard. I am going to train Dazzy in Comp. Obedience (she is on her way already) but we were just going to let her see sheep first. I really like competition obedience - and I have a GREAT trainer for it out here. I am glad to hear that it can ALL be done!

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Richard,

The only thing that bothers me about your descritpion is the physical forcing of the down (which could actually hurt a dog) and your mention of roughness. IMO that's completely unnecessary. My Twist (national-level open trial dog) didn't have a down till she was a couple of years old. I started Lark on sheep w/o a down and use it rarely as I don't want to encourage clappiness, and certainly the pups have been on sheep, and they have no idea what "down" means on a good day. How many times have you read on these very boards that often all obedience goes out the window the first few times a dog/pup is on stock? There's a reason for that. Most people don't expect perfect obedience from any dog when first introduced to stock. I don't like trainers who take a "one method fits all dogs" approach and I don't like unnecessary roughness with my dogs, period. A drag line serves a good purpose for stopping a dog or catching it up without having to go the choke collar, teach the dog lie down at all costs approach. It allows the dog to approach stock and learn right from wrong in a more fluid manner, and is a better way, IMO.

 

I also wonder what you mean by rough on her stock? A trainer who doesn't respect the stock (as they are her livelihood) also isn't someone I would want to learn from. Anyway, as you can probably tell, I don't have much patience for roughness--and don't think hard physical corrections are appropriate unless a dog is trying to take down stock with killing in mind. That's not to say I tolerate abuse of stock, but I do make allowances for the newness of the situation for the dog.

 

That said, if you are comfortable with this trainer's methods, then by all means continue on. Personally I would keep looking.

 

And I agree with Mark's last post. While I think you can have a jack of all trades at some level, I don't think the average person has the time, $$, etc., to be very competitive in multiple venues at the same time.

 

As for which you might choose to do--you could do both, but if your time/$$ is limited, you can probably move up the ranks more quickly in agility than with stockwork, and you can set up agility equipment in the back yard, but not always keep sheep there. Still, if working with stock "speaks to you" then do what it takes to get there.

 

J.

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I know some great dogs that do both obedience and open level trialing.

I agree with Mark, if you get into herding or other venues and really get caught up in them, the time constraints are hard to manage. Guess if your funds and time are abundent you could do both. :rolleyes:

For me it's always been stock work. Obedience seems rather boring but I've never tried so I'm really only speaking about my opinion. Agility looks really fun but it's a time thing for me.

 

I vote for Stockwork, but I'm and addict.

 

I also recommend attending the Kathy clinic. Even if only to observe...she's one of the best teachers I've been to. I like Jack too, but Kathy will work with the handler till they "get it" Jack works the dogs, it seems handlers are second to the dog for him.

Happy Halloween

Kristen

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When she was trying to separate a few sheep into narrow gate(don't know terminology) going to another pen for us to work with. One of them was being really stubborn. She was getting a bit frustrated and hit the sheep a few times in the hind quarters and head with an empty bleach bottle, filled with chalk used to mark the stock. I think she uses it as a rattle as well.

 

As for the lying down, thanks for your input. I was poking around on the THCSDA site and found this http://www.thcsda.org/tips.htm

The first 'tip' is exactly what she did.

 

Just from the brief chit chat I've had so far, she comes recommended, but they all know her style is more aggressive.

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I'm as green as it gets (two short herding holidays of several days, so far), but from what I have seen the down is quite unnecessary at first(?).

Our trainer used body language and a hollow roll of plastic bags (to make gestures and noises with) to keep beginner dogs off the sheep. With the maddest dog, she threw the plastic thing in his direction once or twice when he tried to get some wool. It was enough. "Down" was never required, and neither were any other "obedience commands".

It seemed to my newbie mind that the first lessons were all about letting the dogs get a feeling for the sheep, and jerking them around surely wouldn't have helped that process.

 

Personally I'd keep looking for another trainer.

 

As for the crossroads, I'd definitely go for the sheep IF there is anyone non-aggressive available.

Agility seems to be about teamwork, which is great, but herding has the teamwork AND a large bag of other things. It showed me a whole new side of my dog (and she probably got a good doggie laugh about my own efforts!).

 

I know some people here really don't like the word "herding" - sorry - but I really can't bring myself to refer to my running-backwards-exercises as "work" yet :rolleyes:

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Julie

When you are starting a young dog on stock, and need to stop working, what do you do? At a clinic recently, we walked to the wall and the pup layed down watching the sheep which was real handy.

I have another question- what is the purpose of walking the dog around the sheep pen and sitting it every so often? What about walking the dog up to the sheep and sitting it? Does this translate into more focus?

thanks

Julie

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Julie,

That's what the drag line is for. It has knots in it so you can step on it and catch the youngster up. Walking to a fence until the sheep stop and walking through the sheep to catch the pup will also work if the pup has enough eye to lie there and eye the sheep. Often, though, a pup will jump up and try to fly around the sheep to the balance point again as you change your position, so I just step on the drag line and catch them that way (while saying "that'll do, here"). The line is lightweight--parachute cord in my case.

 

I see no reason for walking a pup on a lead around sheep and asking it to sit, either inside or outside a pen, so I can't really answer your question because I don't know why someone would do it. It sounds rather like an exercise to get the pup to pay attention to the human, but I don't really worry about that so much in the very beginning. (For example, when I tried Phoebe on sheep a week or so ago, she wasn't even aware I was there--no moving off my body pressure or anything, BUT she was barely 15 weeks old, so I don't really care about that stuff. I don't want to put any real pressure on a dog that young. I just want to see what she'll do. I want her to show interest and try to do something right--in this case she wanted to circle so that's what I let her do for a bit before walking into her path and catching her to stop her. No expecting her to lie down or anything else--total focus on the sheep and not on me, which is fine by me.)

 

J.

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Originally posted by bcnewe2:

I know some great dogs that do both obedience and open level trialing.

I agree with Mark, if you get into herding or other venues and really get caught up in them, the time constraints are hard to manage. Guess if your funds and time are abundent you could do both. :rolleyes:

That is usually the problem - we often have to pick and choose what we can do. I am lucky enough that since I am a trainer in obedience and agility and dabble enough in flyball to train my dogs for the nunber of flyball tournaments we run, I don't have any expenses in those areas, and can afford to spend my money on my sheep, etc.

 

Personally, if you have to choose, I would definitely vote for stockwork with a good instructor/trainer, even if you never get to trial. I love behaviour modification work and the mechanical training for the dog sports, but when it really comes down to the crunch, there is still nothing like working stock with your dog.

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I do both agility and Open herding, and it is very possible to be competitive in both. Your limits are time and finances. Of the 2 choices I think herding is better for the dogs - it encourages a dog to think as well as use it's body fully in a more natural manner. Agility sometimes can be more about physical repetition and body language, not thinking. I also find herding makes for a much fitter dog that agility.

 

As for your trainer, I do agree that she sounds rough. Just because someone is using working dogs in their livelihood is not an excuse. There are many other stockmen, and women, who are superb trainers/teachers/handlers and they are extroidinarily fair and gentle with starting dogs.

 

To be fair about the "walk around on a rope and sit a lot first" thing...I teach a lot of non-Border Collies and their owners about herding. Sometimes we will start out that way because the dog needs to put the handler back in his focus as opposed to slobbering prey drive only. These dogs don't have the mental gears for stockwork that a working bred BC does, and you can't just "turn them at it" if you don't want harassed or dead stock. It doesn't mean they can't be a good, solid worker one day, but in the beginning it is a different process.

 

Think about it. You want to try herding with your 90 lb Schutzhund trained German Shepherd. You gonna take him out to the sheep and let him rip the first moment he says "SHEEP"? No way. A little leash obedience until he cools down ain't such a bad idea (and the dog in this example is going to be a very useful dog in a stockyard..so it is definately worth it, and far from a "game"...though the owner and I are having a ton of fun).

 

I see no reason to put a well bred working Border Collie on stock on a rope though. But then again, I don't like round pens either...LOL

 

Lenajo

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Richard,

 

I think it depends a lot on what you see in your relationship with your dog and how you have the most fun together. I think the partnership in both agility and herding can be very rewarding and intense. But if I had to choose, I think it would be herding. The fact that things are always different and that you are working with the peculiarities of three species rather than two is somethign I find very compelling.

 

We're currently training all four of our BCs in herding, three of them in agility and two in flyball. I'm starting to feel a lot like a jack of all trades, master of none and may soon have to give one or two of them up. For me, it'll probably be agility first because I have less time invested in it than in flyball and less interest in it than in herding. As I learn more about herding, I find flyball is losing its draw for me too.

 

but I think others are right that you can move a lot faster through the ranks in agility (or flyball) and there are far more opportunities to compete and train.

 

Not much help really.

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When you are starting a young dog on stock, and need to stop working, what do you do? At a clinic recently, we walked to the wall and the pup layed down watching the sheep which was real handy.
You don't need the pup or dog to know a drop in this situation. Many dogs will settle and stop when the sheep are controlled and held against a wall or handler. That's how we initially start teaching pups a stop- we let them get to balance, with the sheep settled, and then give the command when the pup is going to stop anyway. If they don't, you can block them from going either way- and when they do stop, the reward is to let the sheep move again and let the dog go.

 

Having a dog lie down when stopped isn't essential- it may be useful because it takes the pressure off a bit more, and might keep a dog more stable, but in general a dog that stops on its feet is fine. We do teach dogs to lie down off sheep, and when they are older and starting to get more control on they are asked to lie down when working- but pups and young dogs often worry about losing their sheep, and are reluctant to go off their feet. I don't think there's much point battling with them then, a stop is enough.

 

Having said that, one of my pet hates at clinics etc is when people take a break, pause to talk to the instructor etc, while leaving their youngster to hold the sheep to them. The dogs often sense that their handler has shifted their interest elsewhere, the dogs get more casual, and mistakes can happen. I think with pups and young dogs, if you need to discuss something with your instructor, you should catch or call your dog off, and only let them work when you are paying full attention.

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I know very little about herding. I do have experience in agility and competition obedience and I must say I have never seen a trainer use a choke collar in training in order to achieve a "down". During training sessions your experience with your dog should always remain upbeat and positive. Behavior corrections should take place outside the training session. If you need your dog to "down" quickly, put your dog on leash ask your dog to "down", if the dog downs slowly give the leash a snap in the down direction and say "where's your down" or lure your dog into the down position. Once your dog "downs" get really excited and give lots of praise. I would imagine in herding like obedience and agility that training should always be fun and positive. Because if it isn't why would the dog want to "work" for you.

 

-G

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Oh, dear. What you said is sometimes true but often not.

 

If I have a dog that I have to be always positive with, then it better be damn talented. Mostly a dog should be able to take some heat. That's just the way it is.

 

The dog has to want to work for the sake of the work. If cheerfulness is always required, then the dog is likely to be one that will let a person down.

 

Penny

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Sam:

My pup went right to balance and layed down eyeing the sheep, when we went to the wall (after, of course, she realized she couldn't go behind either of us to get to them ;0)

I was really happy with this instructor's complete focus on my dog, and sternly telling me what I did wrong :rolleyes: That is what I need!

Oh, and Penny- I agree totally about softness and talent. You can have a completely potential stellar dog, but if they can't take a correction, then it is a LOOOONG road- because they can't progress!

Regarding this, a light bulb went off in my head. I was watching a nice BC work sheep recently, and it has this habit of cutting in too close, and has to get pushed out, which results in the dog leaving. So, they can't really move on to driving, because the dog gets upset- he comes back eventually. I was talking with another trainer about this, and she mentioned the stock- was there too much pressure from the stock?? !!!!!

That may VERY WELL BE!!!! Anyone know more about his to splain to me? I know what pressure is FOR stock, but what about pressure to the dog FROM the stock (and I don't mean personality-wise, rather, positioning with handler/fence, etc.

 

Thanks

Julie

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I would imagine in herding like obedience and agility that training should always be fun and positive. Because if it isn't why would the dog want to "work" for you.
The drive to work stock is an inborn trait and a dog either has it to one degree or another, or doesn't. A dog with that instinct will want to work in spite of adversity - weather, corrections, difficulties with the stock, etc.

 

It's not a matter of "fun" although a positive approach is encouraging to a dog that is young or starting, and/or lacks confidence and experience. But a stockdog that can't take correction - on the training field or anywhere else - is not going to be a partner with you in the work. It will either work for itself or it won't work.

 

The drive to work is in its genetic make-up. There is no drive to "do" competitive obedience (which involves a great deal of "style") and agility. They are games we make up to occupy ourselves and our dogs, and enjoy together. There is no genetic programming to "do" these sports, other than biddability that encourages the dog to do what pleases you.

 

There is a BIG difference between training stockdogs and working stock, and engaging in dog sports. Consequently, there is a big difference in approach to training and the activity itself. I don't believe you can compare the two and make conclusions about the one from the other.

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Here's the difference I see between agility and working stock.

 

In agility, you're asking a dog to do a bunch of things that make no sense to him whatsoever, other than that you have told him to do them.

 

In stock work, you are in a working partnership with a dog that who is doing what his ancestors have passed down to him in his DNA. The dog wants to do this work for its own sake, not because you're telling him to.

 

Personally, I think agility is just a series of pet tricks performed against a stopwatch. Yes, it requires a bond between handler and dog, but nothing like the bond between a shepherd and a dog.

 

Seeing a dog fly out thorugh the mist of an early morning to gather up a flock of sheep off a big field, or hold a newly-lambed ewe with while the shepherd checks their bellies: that's the stuff.

 

If you think herding is just another kind of competition -- another thing to do with your dog -- you're not getting it.

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