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What is my dog thinking at class?


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I have a BC from herding lines. She is 18 months old and was spayed 4 months ago. I have had her in obedience classes (including puppy classes since she was small). She is Miss Congeniality with dogs and people, except at dog parks, so I finally gave up on taking her there. She just didn't like it and stayed away from the other dogs. She would not run and play there. At classes she wants to greet and play with all the dogs. At class she is great on all the commands (beginning level) and long sits and stays, etc EXCEPT heeling. She heels great at home, off leash. At class it is like she is in a race and wants to be first. However, since we are all walking in a ring, well, that just does not work. I have tried baiting with treats which works only for a short distance and makes her excited. It does not seem to be working very well. I have told the trainer I am not interested in using a prong collar. I do have a EasyWalk harness with a martingale clip across the chest we used when she was younger on her walks. I am thinking in using it in class. She had been doing okay at heeling at class about a month ago, though not perfect, but not pulling. Now she is pulling hard. What is she thinking when she does this well at home, but not at class and only this one item at class is poor? I did recall today, my old BC was a handful at 18 months and a bit of the class clown for a while at classes (he became very good with time). Is this just a phase? Any suggestions? Am I doing anything wrong? The pulling is very hard and I struggle to keep her next to me on a short lead. I worry about the pulling hurting her neck (and it is hard on me too). She behaves well on leash walks around the block, etc. looking for any guidance.

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In class when you say heeling, are you referring to loose leash walking at your side or obedience type heeling with lots of attention on you?

 

My 6 mo old puppy has been doing well learning loose leash walking by me clicking at the moment she is walking nicely at my side but not looking at me. So I click when she is doing normal looking around, being a dog on a leash at my side. I don't like using treats to bait or lure during leash training. That to me, creates a dog that can walk nice on a leash when the person has treats because they're just staring at you waiting for a click, but not nice when the person doesn't have treats.

 

If you go to YouTube and search kikopup and leash training or just go to her feed, she has several leash training videos that would be helpful.

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If my dog were struggling with the group heeling exercise like that, I would ask to be excused from it and work stationary positions and short movement forward with the dog in position, instead. And if the instructor were not in favor of that, I would take her for a potty break during that time and work on heeling at home for a while.

 

Sounds like the criteria of maintaining position, while heeling in a group, is too high for her right now. And if you can't raise the rate of reinforcement enough (more frequent treats, etc), then it is definitely important to lower the criteria.

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I actually have the opposite problem with Tansy. She does well in class but is awful when we go somewhere else for a walk. :P

 

I agree with Root Beer.

 

One thing I might add is paying attention to the position of your hand when you deliver the treat if you're clicking and treating. Make sure the treat is delivered in the position where you want her nose to be. Too often people treat forward of where they want the dog to be, which actually causes the dog to forge ahead in order to get the treat. This made a big difference for me when the trainer I worked with pointed it out to me.

 

It can be really helpful for a dog who wants to get ahead like that to put something especially yummy, like liverwurst or PB (you might have to thin it out a little), into a GoToob and keep it by your thigh, squeezing out just enough to keep her interested and in place and then gradually phase it out as she gets better at it.

 

They're available from a number of places and in different sizes and colors. Here's one example:

http://smile.amazon.com/Humangear-GoToob-Travel-Bottle-Blue/dp/B002VS8H3G/ref=sr_1_1?s=apparel&ie=UTF8&qid=1443910780&sr=1-1&nodeID=7141123011&keywords=3+oz+gotoob

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Aaaaand, if you're doing a lot of heeling, walking in a circle for more than a couple minutes, and/or you've been doing this heel work for more than a couple classes, I'd say she's bored.

 

Many border collies get bored-er when asked to repeat things over and over. Maybe an obedience class isn't appropriate for your girl. Not saying this is what's happening, but it could be a factor in her acting up.

 

Re-reading your post, it seems like it could be a combination of 'I already know how to do this' and 'there's all these other dogs to play with!' That's a tough combo for a young dog to resist.

 

If she's already heeling well outside of class, do see if there are other things you can do with her when the instructor wants to practice heeling. Root Beer has some great suggestions.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

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Thank-you for responses. By heeling I mean loose leash walking. I do not use a clicker. I suspected she might be bored, but wanted to hear what others thought. I did take her out of the ring a couple of times as I was losing patience. I do think I was treating too far forward as pointed out in a response. I had only started treating while walking when she became a problem. Thanks for the links.

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Yeah, she's bored. What might help:

 

What is your definition of loose leash walking? I mean, that can seem obvious but its not always and many dogs attach a certain context to it that gets lost in new ones. In addition, especially in group situations our criteria for what we expect varies making it even more confusing for the dogs.

 

In addition, its hard to teach in a classroom setting.

 

I spend some time teaching my dog that ANY pressure on his collar is an issue. I start with super light pressure and mark and reward any time the dog makes the pressure less. I then make it easier and easier to be distracted and pulling away and continue to reward right choices.

 

Marching in a circle is very hard, and not an ideal way to learn/practice LLW.

 

I would move on from this class into something different or do like Root Beer suggests and actually teach a targeted heel as it will be easier for your dog to keep focused.

 

18 months old is a terrible age!

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By loose leash heeling, I mean next to my side, not pulling, but not super close and looking at me the way you see it at obedience trials. I would call it - just staying with me, not forging ahead. What she is now doing in class is a hard pull and if I let her, going out to the end of the end of the leash, but still following the path of the ring. I would like to get her into a foundations class for agility, but thought we needed this first. I've got bad knees, so I am not sure how feasible agility is. Star can get overly stimulated, especially on puppy runs through some agility equipment (tunnels, chutes, tire jump, table), though she loves it. We get to try it once in awhile. I was hoping taking obedience would give us something to work on as she matured. We also have tried rally some in class, but I am not sure if I like it. Star is okay at it. I PMd the instructor on Facebook after I read the earlier responses and she is going to try to give her more challenges and less just walking around the ring.

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I just started agility about 3 months ago w/Gibbs. In this last session, 2 of my classmates were over 65 and both wore knee braces. I wear a brace on my right ankle and don't move very fast at all.

 

The first several classes I went to were taken very slowly. I had concerns about keeping up with Gibbs, too. My instructor tells us that no one can run as fast as their dog, and it's not expected.

 

Maybe you could check with different instructors and see if there's one that suits you best. I love agility and Gibbs does too. I'm very glad we started.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

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Regarding about keeping up with your dog in agiity: Your instructor is correct. No one should expect to keep up with their dog. Even the top world class competitors, as fit as they are (and some male European competitors are ex-pro soccer players) do not 'keep up' with their dog. The goal is to be able to send your dog to do an obstacle while you get into position to direct their path to the next obstacle. Your path and the dog's path will be very different. I know it is hard to imagine as a beginner. I know I expected to 'run with' my dog. He disabused me of that notion VERY rapidly.

 

Do not despair. In my area, there was a competitor with MS who would walk towards the center of the ring while the dog waited at the start line. Then she would be able to direct her dog through the whole course from a rather limited area. She had great distance handling skills and had taught her dog to respond. It is all in how you train your dog.

 

Good Luck.

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By loose leash heeling, I mean next to my side, not pulling, but not super close and looking at me the way you see it at obedience trials. I would call it - just staying with me, not forging ahead.

Think about this from your dogs perspective, its kind of vauge.

What can you do to make it more concrete? Keep your eyes on me (which btw, is very hard, requires tremendous concentration and is not what I would cal LLW, it took me months to teach my dog to do that kind of attentive heeling and he can only do it for minutes - I recently tested his abilities to concentrate without a release)? stay behind my hip? no leash pressure? Make your criteria more concrete and for an 18 month old dog, I would suggest 30 seconds of this, then fall out of the group of dogs, release, reward, then fall back in.

 

What she is now doing in class is a hard pull and if I let her, going out to the end of the end of the leash, but still following the path of the ring.

Right, so she has no sensitivity on her neck for a tight collar.

 

Google "silky leash" and try some of that. I do a modified version of that and its pretty successful with many dogs.

 

Also think of it this way, at 18 months old shes still a baby in terms of attention span, impulse control etc. Picture taking your little kid into a toy store (dog classes are full of things to be stimulated about) and teaching him to walk single file (toe to toe). He could totally do it, right? Then march him around a busy toy store doing the toe to toe walk and nothing else for a while. He can't look at the new Star Wars stuff, and even if he smells candy he can't look at it.

 

Kind of the same mindset.

I would like to get her into a foundations class for agility, but thought we needed this first. I've got bad knees, so I am not sure how feasible agility is. Star can get overly stimulated, especially on puppy runs through some agility equipment (tunnels, chutes, tire jump, table), though she loves it. We get to try it once in awhile. I was hoping taking obedience would give us something to work on as she matured. We also have tried rally some in class, but I am not sure if I like it. Star is okay at it. I PMd the instructor on Facebook after I read the earlier responses and she is going to try to give her more challenges and less just walking around the ring.

 

Look for a tricks class, a CGC prep class (or something similar), a foundations class for obedience and rally (I teach one of these, so much fun!), a pre agility class, a nosework class. Anything to keep her engaged and working with you, or playing with you.

 

Get a group lof like minded people together to train instead of going to a class.

 

Or, find a way to participate in short bursts of the LLW activity (assuming the rest of the class works for you) and move away to the side when you need to. Most instructors don't mind that at all provided you don't disrupt the rest of the class.

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CSW, the way I'm being taught agility is:

 

1) I keep learning that I am having to learn a TON more than the dog. Any reasonably healthy dog can jump over something, run through something, walk along an elevated platform with no problems. On the human side, learning to have the correct body language to send Gibbs where I want him to go is really a challenge at times. And then remembering it for the next class can be even more of a challenge!

 

2) I just signed up for the 3rd in a series of 6 week classes. I'll learn more and more about how to send him where I want him to go and take the obstacles I want him to take. It's soooo much slower for me to learn that than I thought it would be. But we're both having fun. And Gibbs is sort of a teacher's pet.

 

3) I learn from watching the other handlers work. The dogs range from a lovely husky type to a smallish poodle to another border collie. It's great to watch the instructor work with each student according to what they need. And just to make it clear again, the humans are the ones doing the most learning.

 

I've seen videos of people in wheelchairs sending their dogs flying around a course. The dogs were loving it!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

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Don't worry about your speed if you are interested in agility, when I lived in the States I often competed in NADAC and there were a couple of ladies who competed in mobility scooters, one with her assistance dog. Others how shall we put it - rather large - and not very mobile, and then some generally rather unfit people, and some of these handlers were amazing as they had mastered distance handling, but everyone had fun. I do like to run and regard agility as an athletic sport for my dog and I and my handling is focused on running and body language, and I struggled with NADAC because we did not have the distance skills needed, but we can handle our way through a technical course. Agility comes in lots of flavors and even if you never want to compete you can have a lot of fun.

What makes it fun for me more than anything else is that the dog is always of leash and is making decisions not just following commands, it is a team sport.

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I went to nationals (yeah the AKC...) a few years ago just as a spectator and there was a lady there competing with a very fast sheltie and she (the handler) had only one leg! She stood in the middle of the ring on crutches and directed her dog around the ring. It was amazing! I never found out her name but I saw them run a few times and was just blown away every time. I also know someone with multiple breeds that does agility via a wheelchair. There are actually a decent number of disabled agility handlers and a lot of agility handlers are not fast runners at all.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have not been able to enroll in a foundations class. At the club where I train, the instructor for that course is having surgery. Only 1 other club in the area has a foundations course and it is a highly competitive club and I am not sure it is a good fit for us right now. So, I have enrolled Star in a Rally class that starts at the end of October. Sometimes at the end of obedience class they will put out rally signs and we go through a basic course. Star does really well. I don't think she is ready for a beginning agility course, without a foundations course, at least not at an immature 18 months. When they occasionally put out agility equipment at the end of obedience class (just the simple stuff like tunnels, chutes, tire jump, table, low bar jump) Star gets really excited, and can get overly excited (sometimes reactive) when "running the course", though she does pretty well. I stop the reactive response by telling her to sit. Then we move on to the next obstacle. I did buy a DVD set online called Foundations Fundamentals by Mary Ellen Barry. I have not watched it yet. I thought it might have somethings we could work on in the meantime. I signed us up for Rally just for something to do with her as I think having her in a training environment is important. Also the class size is smaller than the obedience classes. Right now she is heeling fine in class if I put the easy walker harness on her. I think it is more of a mental thing as she does not even try to pull in it, so there is very little, if any correction. When I used it during her walks as a pup, she did need the correction it provided (it has a martingale loop in front of the harness).

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