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#41 Jodi

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 03:57 PM

I just want to thank Rebecca and Eileen for commenting on the differences between the AKC "B" course and a USBCHA trial much more eloquently than I could have. I've competed in AKC trials. In fact, if I was so inclined, my dog is ready for the advanced AKC "B" course, but I'll tell you ... we are nowhere NEAR ready for a USBCHA open trial. I'm sick to my stomach because I just entered him in his first ever pro-novice run that we don't have a shread of hope of winning. I'll be happy just to get through it without passing out.

And most of the differences mentioned were simply the length of the outrun. I don't think the AKC ever required a maltese cross or an International shed.

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#42 Keegan's Mom

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 04:08 PM

I appreciate the comparison as I never knew the difference and had never looked into it.

USBCHA trials are definitely something to see and take notice of all the wonderful dogs at work!!!

#43 Denise Wall

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 04:23 PM

Columbia, MO,

If you want those of us who actually compete in USBCHA Open to believe your talk about what a great herding trial dog your conformation dog is, then all you need to do is move him to USBCHA Open, and place well consistently at the Bluegrass or Edgeworth or other equivalent top competitive trials. Just do it. Walk the walk.

I get so sick of people thinking their reasons/excuses for not competing at the top levels are good enough to lend them the same credit as the dog/handler teams who actually do go out and do it.
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#44 KathyF

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 05:37 PM

Now, I am not making excuses for this Columbia person. But I am guessing that the majority of herding trials that she has seen have been at the Purina grounds. So, I guess that she might have seen both USBCHA and AKC herding trials held on the same field at Purina, and if so, maybe at the same distances for outruns. But like a number of people have pointed out, the majority of USBCHA trials have much longer outruns than the majority of AKC trials. And yes, the AKC trials have dog broke, course broke sheep. Most of the USBCHA trials don't have that and that is what proves the real herding dog. I was at a trial the 2nd weekend of October in WI with sheep that were not "broke" sheep. It was interesting to see which dogs could handle that and which couldn't. But I am rambling. I wanted to point out that the people who ran that trial purposedly do not let very many people come out to their place to work sheep because they DON'T want their sheep to be so dog broke.

I have one question for this Columbia person. If you dog is able to compete at the AKC Advanced B course level, then why didn't you run him at that Border Collie specialty that was just held at Purina earlier this month??

One other thing Columbia. You are very wrong in saying that you cannot train a dog on the Invisible fence until they are 6 months old. With the Safe Dog method they can be started as early as 3 - 4 months. With the newest method they can be started at 8 - 9 weeks of age. So, once again, another excuse used by you.

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#45 Eileen Stein

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 06:55 PM

<< And most of the differences mentioned were simply the length of the outrun. I don't think the AKC ever required a maltese cross or an International shed. >>

Good point, Jodi. At a USBCHA Open trial, you never know what might be thrown at you. Maltese cross, chutes, pull-throughs, natural obstacles, collared sheep shed, drive 'em up a rock face -- earlier this month I went to a trial that turned out to be a double lift. Nearly always the course is different on Sunday than it was on Saturday. In AKC Course B, OTOH, the course is always the same, right down to the direction of the turn around the post -- you only have a left-hand drive, never a right-hand drive!

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#46 donna frankland (uk)

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:18 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eileen Stein:
[QB]
<< By the way, the highest scoring American at the Internation Sheepdog Championships in Ireland this year was Robin Penland, who competed with two dogs that she bred and trained. >>

I assume you mean the World Trial, not the International. She did compete in the WT.


sorry to hijack this thread, but where can i find details of the world trials, and anything else for that matter!
i only ask as i went to the international sheepdog trials in hereford this year, i didnt know there was a world trial!! i missed out!
this year was ther first year i was able to go to the international, the set up was awsome, the sheep were so far away i could hardly see them or the dog! a bit different to all the trials i have been to in cornwall and devon!
if anyone could post a link or something i would be most gratefull.
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#47 Lunar

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:40 PM

One other thing Columbia. You are very wrong in saying that you cannot train a dog on the Invisible fence until they are 6 months old. With the Safe Dog method they can be started as early as 3 - 4 months. With the newest method they can be started at 8 - 9 weeks of age. So, once again, another excuse used by you.

Well perhaps they didn't know of the new methods? I'm guessing when she trained her other dogs for the invisible fence it was a good while ago. I wouldn't jump to conclusions about it being an "excuse."

It seems to me that this owner has done a LOT to try to deal with her dog. Maybe all you people who have working-bred "true" border collies see this dog as expected, but she sure didn't. She'd had border collies before, had a JRT, she THOUGHT she knew what she was getting into. She was wrong, obviously, and now she knows. But I don't think it serves any purpose to continually point out that her other BC isn't a "true" BC and whether or not she SHOULD have anticipated these problems.

Some owners would have dumped the dog, and of those who didn't, I don't think many would have put out the amount of effort she has in trying to keep this dog occupied and happy. She's probably doing all the wrong things - it's been pointed out. Well good thing she's at this forum to learn new methods! But it appears she has her dogs' welfare foremost in mind, and she's willing to try.

(And I'm not at all commenting on the debate between herding trial types, or the comments arising from it.)

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#48 Eileen Stein

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 03:03 AM

<< Some owners would have dumped the dog . . . >>

Dumped him? Never! They would just have accepted one of the "serious offers" from "trial people wanting to buy him due to his style and eye" at his first herding lesson. :rolleyes:

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#49 Eileen Stein

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 03:05 AM

Donna, you can read about the World Trial here. But any year in which you get to see the International is not a year when you've missed out.

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#50 Maralynn

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 03:31 AM

Originally posted by Columbia-

"Right now, he is at liberty all evening to bring me those 500 balls that I don't throw... and he's very distracting even when I try not to acknowledge him in any way!"

Why don't you just put the toys away when you are not playing with him? That way he can't keep bringing them to you, and he might settle down quicker when he is not focused on playing with his toys.

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#51 donna frankland (uk)

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 04:06 AM

thanks eileen!
i must say the internationals were great, a million collies and puppy socialisation to boot!
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#52 Jodi

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 04:14 AM

Lunar -

I understand what you are saying, and we all sound so mean after she stepped in and saved one of the pups from the puppy mill ... but after seeing her comments on some other boards, it's obvious that she now has a "real" Border Collie. What kind of comments? She commented that about half of the 50 ABCA registered
dogs that she had seen during their first few introductions to sheep had been "washed out" by the third lesson because they would literally not even look at the sheep, but that EVERY SINGLE AKC conformation-bred dog that she had seen exposed to livestock has turned on within a couple of minutes ... la la la la... She gives reasons for this ... such as maybe the local farmers only bring their worst dogs to the stockdog trainers (where she is seeing them) and the AKC people only bring their best ones ... or that maybe because many of the washout dogs are kennel dogs who don't have a relationship with their owners, etc.

Of course, this all happened on the AKC_BC Yahoo Group, where her entire audience will agree with her. If you're on that list, you can check message number 5963, 5991, and 5996 to see what I mean.

There was another big, long thread on another board (the thread is gone now as the server crashed) where she spent a lot of time claiming that her AKC dog could competitively compete in USBCHA if he had a different handler, etc., and trying to convince people that the dog she has been competing with -- despite being a show champion -- is just as intense, just as talented, etc. So those of us who have read those threads, and now see this thread, where she is complaining about TYPICAL BC puppy behavior only confirms what we already knew was true.

Jodi

#53 KathyF

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 12:40 PM

Well perhaps they didn't know of the new methods? I'm guessing when she trained her other dogs for the invisible fence it was a good while ago. I wouldn't jump to conclusions about it being an "excuse."


Lunar-

Read the following quotes from Columbia. She was clearly commmenting on training the 6 1/2 month old pup to IF. Not a dog from a long time ago. Some of us also know this person and she infamous for making excuses.

""Repo is now 6 1/2 mos. old and is a total hooligan!

Here's why... I have an invisible fence for my 3 acre front yard, at the end of a dead-end country road. Until last year I worked from home, and my other dogs (pre-Repo) would run around out there all day while I gardened and did chores.

2) Repo was too young to train to an invisible fence prior to having the tenants arrive. Dogs have to be at least 6 months old. And besides that, he is a car-chaser in the making, and it is unsafe for this kind of dog to use an invisible fence.""


Age has nothing to do with training on IF as they can be started at 8 - 9 weeks of age. So that shouldn't be used as an excuse. I have trained plenty of dogs that want to chase cars on IF with no problems. It all has to do with the training and how much the owners are wiling to devote to the training.

Kathy

#54 SoloRiver

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 01:02 PM

I'm using "well bred" in the more common usage, in which I'm referring to the PRODUCT of the breeding--that is, the puppy--having good qualities.

Huh? No one uses "well bred" this way. If you feel comfortable speaking a different language than everyone else, I guess that's your prerogative, but don't expect anyone to understand you.
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#55 Lunar

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 04:34 PM

Jodi - Thanks for the explanation. I don't read any other dog-related forums or email lists, so it looked out of the blue to me. I can see your point.

Kathy - Yes, she was talking about training her new puppy... but what I was saying was that she might only know about the methods of training that were around when she trained her old dogs. You mentioned that the NEW training methods safely work with young puppies. Just pointing out that she may not know about the new methods. (Not saying that's the case, as I don't know, just a possibility.)

But, it sounds like you know this person better than I do.

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#56 lrayburn

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 12:13 PM

Columbia,
Take him to doggie day care 1 or 2 days a week. The rest of the time, crate him with one Kong and a chewie and have someone (like the upstairs tenants or a neighbor) take him out at lunch time. Or, crate him and take him in your car with you. It won't be forever. It shouldn't be too hot this time of year and there is an art to dog parking.

Mine have solar reflective crate covers (and a windshield cover) and I move the car at lunch time during the warmer months. Both of my dogs are crated in the car while I'm at work. They get play time and potty breaks during the day and longer walks or runs before or after work. They wouldn't be that much happier staying at home - they would just sleep there instead.

My Ben came to me as a young adult with NO OFF FUNCTION! None, whatsoever. He would offer a toy over and over or try to play with Nellie even though she was tired of it and so was I. So I taught him how to turn off.

I ask him to settle and take him to his mat and lie him down. He's allowed to get off his mat after several minutes and hang out somewhere else but if he get goofy again, straight in the crate he goes. When he lays down in his crate for a couple of minutes, I'll open the door and he can come and go as he likes unless he gets goofy again in which case its back in the crate for a longer stretch.

Ben has improved dramatically using this technique. Now, if I ignore him he actually GOES AWAY instead of trying over and over again. He doesn't play nearly as roughly in the house and has a lot more impulse control and frustration tolerance in other areas of his life.

This technique should rapidly cure your pup from bringing you the ball 500 times a day.

Hope that helps!

Lisa


As I said, he'd sure better make up for this by being my first Open trial winner a couple years from now!

Of course you were just kidding... :rolleyes:

#57 Columbia MO

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 01:00 PM

Lisa,

Thanks for your advice and your success story with Ben--I have actually started working on the mat idea and it is working very well.

I picked out an ACD puppy for a coworker from the shelter this spring--she is identical in age to Repo. My co-worker has been teaching her puppy to stay on a towel and chew toys until given permission to leave. Her puppy is definitely the best mannered ACD I have ever met, and in fact one of the best mannered of any breed. So I know your mat advice is good!

About the crating in the car, I have done that in the past with my JRT when he was a puppy and had separation anxiety. I'd alternated days in doggy daycare with days in the car while at work--and of course many breaks for walks and playtime. But now that I have this huge puppy playroom with dogdoor to an outdoor kennel surrounded by forest... I hate to have to crate Repo for 10 hours, and prefer to just make his rooms more puppy proof.

Anyway, I made Repo out to be much worse than he is out of a sense of comic hyperbole--in other words, I had started this thread to be a comic story of a zany day in the life of one 6 mos. BC puppy!

Other than bringing me the balls, Repo is actually wonderful in the house. He will settle down and chew hooves for long periods of time, and never chews inappropriate items. He is not pushy with me or the other dogs, and plays appropriately with them for short periods of time... then goes and entertains himself or trains with me. He has been housetrained for several months, too.

It was mainly him being silly in his outdoor room that I wrote about in my original post. I thought it would be fun to share the story of him knocking out a lightbulb, carrying it outside and burying it--that has never happened in my 40 years of dog guardianship.

However, a friend of mine (and board lurker) pointed out that in my original post I seemed possibly upset, and insinuating that Repo was abnormal in his activity level. In fact, I think he is quite normal in his activity--I just lucked out with my first two BCs. :D I think he is a super funny puppy.

In the last few days, I have fixed Repo's destructive tendencies in his playroom, and he is having a wonderful safe time out there now (safe for the textiles, that is!) For the rug/mat chewing, I had tried Bitter Apple, which didn't work for him. Then I had tried some "Fooey" (more bitter stuff) and that was the day he destroyed his dog bed. It turns out that Fooey does work--and VERY well!--I just hadn't sprayed it all over the bed but only on the front edge.

I have now been using it more liberally for the past 4-5 days, and no destruction at all. I even put in a new dog bed (tied down with wire, and sprayed with Fooey) and he has not snacked on it or on the carpet strip. He is now happily playing with his stuffed Kongs and his bungee tug toy that hangs from the ceiling... and I removed all nearby flourescent lights, just in case lightning strikes twice!

For the repeated ball-retrieving, I decided to extinguish this kind of retrieving totally. I had been trying to teach him to bring the ball to my hand, and because of this, I was rewarding some of his retrieves (the ones where I could touch the ball before he dropped it) and ignoring all the others. However, this served to put him on a variable reinforcement schedule, which meant he just brought the ball more and more, thinking that he had to simply bring it 20 or 50 times before I would throw it.

Starting on Friday, I started ignoring EVERY retrieve. I simply don't look at him or the ball, or try to get my hand under it, or encourage him to bring it "the whole way," or anything else. All it took was two evenings, and he gave up bringing me the ball and simply started chewing hooves by himself. So the ball bringing had been inadvertently "trained in" by me, and was pretty easily extinguished.

At the same time, I'm devoting about 15 min. each evening to "formal retrieve" lessons where he is rewarded for various components of a GOOD retrieve, such as holding the ball, moving on leash with the ball in his mouth, etc. When he masters retrieving "to hand," I may allow some informal retrieves during the day, though I will be careful to initiate them myself instead of letting Repo decide that it is time for me to throw for him!

Thanks for your great advice, and it was nice to hear of the success you had with Ben.

Columbia, MO

P.S. Yes, I was just kidding about Repo having to win Open trials in a few years. I would also forgive him for the lightbulb incident if he wins some Ranch classes... :rolleyes:

#58 Rebecca, Irena Farm

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 05:01 AM

Thank you Jodi for that "heads up". A lot of things make sense now.

"Columbia" - do you remember warning me that these pups, born in a barn and bred by a "tobacco chewing farmer", would grow up to be maladjusted?

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Here's one - obviously terrified of that ball at his feet (also working sheep already, by the way):

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Here's another one -

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This one is just so screwed in so many ways I can't name them - for instance, what self respecting Border collie would be best friends with the family cat?

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Early tractor fumes exposure is the only possible explanation for ears like this:

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Too bad she has no interest in stock:

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It's been a while since that conversation. I hope you've come to respect the traditions that produced this breed a bit more since then but I kind of wonder.
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#59 Jodi

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 09:10 AM

Rebecca!

You have a bigger problem than just early tractor fumes. That permanent head-cocked-tongue-out thing is probably caused by licking the tobacco chew spit off the side of the barn.

It's painfully obvious that Columbia MO has not learned much, if anything at all, from the last go-round we all had with her. Very sad.

And of course she was just kidding about Repo having to win Open trials in a few years. She meant he'd have to win the Advanced AKC "B" course, because that is, after all, the same thing, right?!?!?!

Jodi

#60 Miztiki

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 10:26 AM

Is that Karen in the picture?



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