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Fetch teaching tips?


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After reading the current post on ball possessiveness, I was inspired to send a question out to solicit advice about getting my new dog to fetch.

 

My dog Zorro, a BC-lookalike GSD-mix is just like all your BCs. I'm not concerned that he doesn't like to be bothered, because in general he only gets snappy when someone really gets in his face - he tolerates a lot before he says "no more." Also, he doesn't actually bite, he airsnaps (usually for play but also to warn off dogs when he's working), which I haven't seen in any other dogs. He especially loves the kick-ball version of fetch, though it doesn't tire him out as fast because he usually blocks it (sometimes with his face) any direction I try to get it past him.

 

I'm really anxious to get my new BC, Lily, to learn the fetch job to satisfy her (very high) exercise needs. At home I can get her excited enough to chase a toy and bring it back, but only got her to chase one at the park once. Zero interest in balls so far. I was wondering if anyone can offer any tips to speed the process of learning the game? With Zorro it took a few months to get it down.

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FWIW, none of my dogs play fetch because I don't like the obsessive behavior it can arouse unless governed with care. If they play with the ball, they are mainly just romping and tossing it on their own. My oldest boy likes the kickball version, but he's the last I taught to play that game.

But one observation I would like to add is that I prefer not to ask my dogs to play in a situation where other dogs are present, particularly a game as potentially competitive as fetch. That air-biting could easily turn into a defensive snap and it's neither healthy nor fun for a dog to feel the need to do that. So, just be careful of playing kickball with other dogs around. You don't want to accidentally have it escalate if another dog gets too pushy about it. :)

The other note I'd make is that if your girl does not care for fetch, maybe that's not a bad thing. The point to remember is that border collies don't need tons of chasing/play time. It's a misconception that they just need to runrunrun. What they really need, what they are bred for, is to use their brains. Working sheep dogs put in long physical days, but it's their brains that get the real workout. The best way to tire a border collie out is to make it think.

So if your girl lacks chase drive for balls, try other things. Look for games, tricks, behaviors to engage her with. What she probably wants most is to engage you, not a toy. So, if she's motivated by treats and praise, start teaching her ways to earn them. If she has favorite toys at home, teach her to pick them up by name. If she likes doing things with you, start teaching her tricks and obedience games and even little "dance" steps.

Not every border collie plays ball. And they certainly don't need tons of non-thinking exercise. After all, you don't want to accidentally train her to need too much play time. :)

Just my thoughts, everyone's mileage may vary. :ph34r:

~ Gloria

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I love what Gloria says! Very good advice, as always.

 

I realized some time ago that while I played fetch morning and evening to "exercise" my dogs - and they absolutely loved it, yes, to the point of obsession - it was the lazy way out of exercising a dog and did not really get my dogs fit the way alternative methods of exercise do. Plus, fetch is certainly not without risk - running into things (Celt kept his eye on the ball so much that he would tend to run into trees and such, and Dan has run into other dogs and bowled them over and actually hurt them while watching the ball) or twisting and turning to catch or pursue the ball and getting hurt doing so. And, guess what? I wasn't getting any benefit out of it other than the short walk to the yard or pasture or hay field where we played.

 

In addition, fetch involves the body but doesn't engage the mind in much more than an obsession-producing way. These intelligent dogs will get better served and more tired by mental exercise and stimulation than purely physical exercise. Hence, Gloria's recommendations to *do* things and *teach* things - tricks, games, manners, interactive fun.

 

And, as she says, not all dogs are interested in fetch. We people don't all like the same things, either. Some dogs will develop more interest in something like fetch if other dogs enjoy it, and they become involved. At home, fetch may be the most exciting thing going on for your dog. At the park, there are much more interesting things to distract her, and that's likely why she just isn't into the ball there. That can be a good thing. I took one dog to a dog park with his ball when traveling and while he was only interested in his ball, that didn't stop half the dogs in the park from wanting in on the game and stealing the ball - and then their hapless owners would not and could not help me get it back because "he won't listen to me". I got the ball back and learned my lesson, and that was the one and only time we ever played ball in a public area like that again.

 

Much better physical exercises include walking and anything that teaches a dog to use his/her body intelligently. Don't get me wrong - we walk several miles and several times a day, over dirt/gravel roads, hay fields, woodland trails, and pastures, places that provide mental stimulation as well as physical activity, and we also do a small amount of fetch as well. Sometimes we take a toy on the walk and fetch happens while we walk. Sometimes it's a little fetch time in the yard after a walk or if weather truly prevents a walk (thunderstorms or severe winter weather that simply won't allow a safe walk).

 

I don't have a problem with fetch but find it like seasoning on food - it should not be what the meal revolves around but just something that spices up the day and rounds out a day that involves mental stimulation as well as physical exercise.

 

Good luck!

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I always had a problem with my dog bringing stuff back to me. It was pointed out that my dog was "possessive", but he certainly is not aggressive about it. I wound up taking some online courses, in part, because he was stealing the leash and running off with it in an agility setting. I completely adjusted our tug style to remove the "conflict" whereby we got into a thing over possession of the tug (eg, the tug game wasn't really play to the dog). This , in part, involved letting go of the tug frequently and then encouraging the dog to return with the toy for another round of tug. * *From this, the fetch was shaped.**

 

Play can be very complex and does not need to be mindless. Fenzi Academy has some very good courses on play, which I highly recommend.

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I always had a problem with my dog bringing stuff back to me. It was pointed out that my dog was "possessive", but he certainly is not aggressive about it. I wound up taking some online courses, in part, because he was stealing the leash and running off with it in an agility setting. I completely adjusted our tug style to remove the "conflict" whereby we got into a thing over possession of the tug (eg, the tug game wasn't really play to the dog). This , in part, involved letting go of the tug frequently and then encouraging the dog to return with the toy for another round of tug. * *From this, the fetch was shaped.**

 

Play can be very complex and does not need to be mindless. Fenzi Academy has some very good courses on play, which I highly recommend.

 

Me too, especially the Fenzi courses.

 

There's actually a lot of brain work involved when my dogs play - even fetch, when it's the morning/evening routine. It's also really easy to get that brain work into the game, and not terribly difficult to prevent obsessiveness. I like fetch. I like disc. We play them with rules and using the ball and disc as rewards.

 

That said, figuring out how to gt that toy back can be hard and you can certainly create an issue if you introduce toys into multi-dog play sessions.

 

My method for getting the ball or toy back is 1-) two toys games and b-) turning around and running the other way so the dog chases me with it. These are for dogs who basically want to fetch. I've also from the ground up TAUGHT retrieving as a game, reward transfer to be able to use a toy and the game as a reinforcer, but that's longer and more complicated.

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Thanks for the comments.

 

I think a thread that calls for everyone's favorite versions of fetch would be a fun read, and would help to clarify that fetch is not (necessarily) a mindless game. I laughed out loud when I read that comment. A few of my favorites:

 

"slingshot" - Zorro goes the direction I point, for the ball, and changes direction when I whistle 'the other direction' or wave my hand if he's looking. To keep him focused and attentive, while also getting more mileage out of a throw, I send him one way, then wave him back and forth before telling him to come back and run around me before "slingshotting" out ahead to where the ball will eventually land in front of him.

 

"go long" - I send him out to where I will throw the ball, he sprints out to my regular distance (I use a chuck-it, so it's far), and then turns around. Then I point to one side or the other, he runs that way and watches me throw it, tracks it in the air and catches it after the bounce. (slingshot can also be played at a distance following the go-long setup).

 

"find it" - sometimes on purpose, sometimes not, this game involves me sending him off and then putting the ball somewhere else. then when he looks back (thinking we're playing "go long") I tell him to find it. He searches, and occasionally looks back for hints about which way to look. He understands waves in either direction, and a whistle for "come towards me." He'll start close then work outward in a zig-zag until he gets it.

 

"air-raid" - for this game I am the one moving around, collecting all the balls around the park. Admittedly, this one is pretty easy for him, but he loves it. I throw them all (10-50 balls) into a central location where he is waiting to catch each one (on the bounce). this is good for hot days because he can stand in the shade. Of course it's most fun, like all of them, if there are high balls and grounders mixed in. Sometimes this one also involves putting all the collected balls into one pile, but we're still working on consistency on that.

 

So, I take issue with the idea that fetch is a "lazy" way to exercise a dog. If YOU are lazy, then yeah, the game might not be anything special, but it has potential to be a great game(s). Sure, if I had a farm, things would be different, but i doubt I would abandon fetch as one way to physically and mentally exercise my dogs. Living in a city, fetch is a great way to exercise Zorro while also building communication between us. Then, of course, since he LOVES playing with the ball, it is a very effective stand-in for treats during training (short range "catch it" game is a good motivator).

 

Back to the original point - I can teach fetch games, but my OP was asking how others have convinced their dog that the ball is anything interesting - the first step to getting to these games and building up the ball as a motivational tool. I can get dogs at the park, with owners who say "he never chases balls" to chase the ball, but Lily seems to thinks it's a pretty lame toy.

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I taught my completely non-toy interested dog to fetch via originally giving her a container with a lid that she couldn't open herself, with some food in it. She mouthed it, I marked and rewarded from the container. Then I marked rewarded for picking it up. Then for bringing it a step or two toward me. Then for retrieving it after a small toss. Then a bigger toss.


Then I transferred to rewarding out of my hand/pocket instead of the toy. Then I emptied the toy/container and continued to reward. THEN I moved to a ball/toy that had never held and couldn't hold food. By that point she had enough reward history built up in the game that I dropped the rewarding/food and she kept love of the game. And developed one for disc.


But it is a PROCESS.

 

The puppy, who likes tug and doesn't mind fetch but is bleh at balls? I just throw tug toys.

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I taught my completely non-toy interested dog to fetch via originally giving her a container with a lid that she couldn't open herself, with some food in it. She mouthed it, I marked and rewarded from the container. Then I marked rewarded for picking it up. Then for bringing it a step or two toward me. Then for retrieving it after a small toss. Then a bigger toss.

 

Then I transferred to rewarding out of my hand/pocket instead of the toy. Then I emptied the toy/container and continued to reward. THEN I moved to a ball/toy that had never held and couldn't hold food. By that point she had enough reward history built up in the game that I dropped the rewarding/food and she kept love of the game. And developed one for disc.

 

But it is a PROCESS.

interesting, thank you.

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interesting, thank you.

 

I should be pretty clear that when I say she had no toy drive, I mean she had none. She now is really enthusiastic about lots of games with toys, but she really had to build that association first. Shaping the whole thing this way is probably not necessary for a dog who's just not into ball specifically. Works awesome to transfer reward, though, when you have 'loves food' and 'to heck with toys' present in the same dog, though.

 

I just haven't had a dog between total disinterest in the game and coming basically out of the 'box' in love with it.

 

(And you're welcome!)

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