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Just a comment on commercial breeders here in KC


Tommy Coyote
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I just got hit over the head with this idea like a great bolt out of the blue. Should have made the connection long ago.

 

The reason the commercial breeders here in Missouri - and there are about 1200 of them last I heard- are making so much money is really simple. It is almost impossible for people to buy a dog that is the breed of their choice anywhere but a pet store. Most of the (I don't know what you call them for sure. The breeders that are called "top" maybe) top breeders around here don't produce enough nice puppies for sale. Or they are so picky they won't sell to anyone but people they know - like other show people.

 

One of my customers has a bichon and she wants to get another one. The only place she can go to find one is Land of Paws which is part of a huge commercial operation. There are no other puppies available. She might be able to get on a waiting list but she doesn't want to wait for months and months to get a dog.

 

She might find something on Craig's List but who wants to do that?

 

Everyone is pushing getting rescues and that is a good thing. But people who want a purebred dog should be able to find them, too. I understand that because I have border collies. I don't want any other kind of dog. about half of my bc's have been rescues. But I don't want a lab or a German Shepherd. I want a border collie. I know how she feels.

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I would disagree as a person who sold a litter while living in the KC area. I got plenty of calls from people wanting pups. They didn't want to pay more than $100 and were going to breed the pup to their other dog when it was old enough. It's really hard to find responsible buyers in that area, much more so than other parts of the country. My pups from that litter did not stay local. They got shipped to NM, NY, OH, MA. Ask other responsible breeders in the area and they will tell you the same thing.

 

People buy from pet stores because it's fast, takes no planning and they aren't asked questions about how they will treat the dog. Got cash? Then you too can buy a pup.

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The minimum for a working bred puppy around these parts (eastern/atlantic Canada) is about $700. The average window is $700-$1500. Depends on the pedigree. Can be more, not likely to be less. You will have to wait for one. Sometimes quite a while. I waited two years for my current puppy.

 

You can buy a sports bred BC for $300. You can pick one up this afternoon.

 

You can buy a puppy from a backyard litter for $150-$200. You can get that one on the weekend.

 

You pay about $150 to get a rescue dog. That will take 10 days to be approved.

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I don't know if you can compare the working border collie market with the little house dog dog market. Maybe you can. And I could be dead wrong. A lot of the people I know who have little dogs have gotten them from rescue groups.

 

I just hate to see people buying from Land of Paws. They give them this sincere sounding spiel about how these are all local breeders that they have done business with for years and they are all good breeders. I mean, if you were the typical suburban dog owner you could get sucked into that argument really easily. Most of these people don't know anything about buying a dog. They maybe have had 1 dog for 13 years and then it died of old age. They don't have a clue about good or bad dog breeding practices.

 

One caveat is that the people I deal with are wonderful owners who just adore their dogs. I very rarely run into the buy a dog on impulse and then throw it away later crowd.

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In some areas, and Missouri is one of them, producing pups for sale for a profit is just another business and part of the history and culture. A lot of that mindset happened when the USDA encouraged farmers to get into producing pups for sale as a way to augment farm income, after WWII, maybe?

 

In other places, religion can play a part, particularly when people view animals (all animals, including dogs) as creatures without souls and something they have been given "dominion" over (somehow they seem to not recognize responsibility and humane treatment as part and parcel of that concept).

 

I think it can be hard to find a pup from a responsible breeder without a lot of work and research - part of which involves making connections and taking time. That is hard in our society where "I want it now!" is so much a part of the general psyche, and is fostered and encouraged by many aspect of society (think advertising).

 

First, I'd ask her if she'd checked out if there are any Bichon rescues that she could contact. Again, make connections, maybe even get involved as a foster (look at all the folks who fail fostering and wind up with a heart dog).

 

(Putting on flack jacket now) Second, if someone asked me a question like this (where to find a nicely-bred, responsibly-bred pup of any pet breed) I'd refer them to our local kennel club, where I know people I respect and trust (even if I don't favor involvement with AKC). It is, largely, made up of people who have nothing but the best interests of the dogs at heart, and I wouldn't hesitate to ask most of them (not all of them) for some references and referrals. (Taking off flack jacket but keeping it close by now.)

 

I think a person has to decide for his/herself what matters most in a case like this - doing the right thing or doing something right now.

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One caveat is that the people I deal with are wonderful owners who just adore their dogs. I very rarely run into the buy a dog on impulse and then throw it away later crowd.

 

I had a short discussion with a friend who is a groomer and vet tech about this, people with tiny little tote dogs that they absolutely love, cherish, and take great care of for their entire life. These very same people who are the epitome of loving owners buy these little "teacup" pups from backyard breeders and online sites, bred very irresponsibly and sold at inflated prices. But they *love* them and I don't know if you could educate them to do otherwise (i.e., buy responsibly-bred pups) unless they want to be educated and change their outlook.

 

These little dogs, bred to be tiny and not bred with any health or soundness issues in mind, have bulging runny eyes, horrendous dentition, soundness issues, and other health concerns - but they are loved. Sometimes love is not enough. Doesn't responsibility in finding a pet play a part in good ownership, too?

 

We can't make decisions for others but we can, hopefully, educate and make them aware if they are not already, but only if they want to learn.

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The minimum for a working bred puppy around these parts (eastern/atlantic Canada) is about $700. The average window is $700-$1500. Depends on the pedigree. Can be more, not likely to be less. You will have to wait for one. Sometimes quite a while. I waited two years for my current puppy.

 

You can buy a sports bred BC for $300. You can pick one up this afternoon.

 

You can buy a puppy from a backyard litter for $150-$200. You can get that one on the weekend.

 

You pay about $150 to get a rescue dog. That will take 10 days to be approved.

 

 

In the UK you can get a nice unpapered working bred pup for around £150. No end of them available.

 

ISDS registered may be a bit more. Mine cost £365 but I could probably have got cheaper. I didn't have to wait because I wasn't fussy about the detail. I had earmarked the breeder years ago as a possibility should I ever decide to buy because of their insistence on good temperament. Two dog pups left, one short, one longer coated. I wanted short so the decision was made for me - the rest is up to me.

 

Plenty of breeders to go to round here and always pups available. The longer your shopping list of criteria, the longer the wait I imagine.

 

Sport bred - I would guess starting around £300 up to around £800 or more. Probably would have to wait quite a while for the higher priced dogs.

 

No idea about backyard prices.

 

Rescue £100 - £200. Probably up to a week if a home check is done.

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Like Sue R I have also suggested people contact their local AKC club for references on good breeders of some breeds of dogs. Emphasis on 'some breeds'. Mainly your small breed, lap/purse type dogs.

 

Many good breeders also have ties to their local breed rescue. So contacting rescue may not only lead to finding a great dog, it can also lead to good contacts for reputable breeders.

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She might be able to get on a waiting list but she doesn't want to wait for months and months to get a dog.

 

Then get your name on a waiting list months BEFORE you want a dog. I'm not sure why people decided that they want a dog and figure that they need to have a puppy fitting x,y,z criteria in hand within two weeks (or something like that).

 

If you want one now, go to a shelter. If you want a known purebred puppy, then be prepared to have a little patience while waiting for one from a responsible breeder.

 

When I went looking for a puppy, I did so realizing that it might be a while before I found one that would be right for me. I was thinking it was going to be mid fall at the earliest when I started looking in the middle of April. I'm certainly glad I didn't need to wait that long but regardless, I wasn't going to head to a pet store or Craigslist to get instant gratification.

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(Putting on flack jacket now) Second, if someone asked me a question like this (where to find a nicely-bred, responsibly-bred pup of any pet breed) I'd refer them to our local kennel club, where I know people I respect and trust (even if I don't favor involvement with AKC). It is, largely, made up of people who have nothing but the best interests of the dogs at heart, and I wouldn't hesitate to ask most of them (not all of them) for some references and referrals. (Taking off flack jacket but keeping it close by now.)

 

I think a person has to decide for his/herself what matters most in a case like this - doing the right thing or doing something right now.

No flames here... :P

 

If I wanted a Papillon puppy - just couldn't shake the desire - I would probably go to a responsible show breeder. Because my other choice would be a pet dealer. Of course I would scour the rescues, but that doesn't always work, even if you are willing to wait. I wouldn't register the pup. Yes, the breeder probably registered the litter, but I wouldn't register my dog. And of course I would not show the dog in any AKC venue - conformation, sport or obedience - not even a CGC.

 

If someone asked me for help in finding a Papillon pup, I would try to get them to go the rescue route, and then help with screening breeders. And yeah, that probably means AKC show breeders.

 

If someone asked me to help them find a Bulldog puppy, I would refuse. Politely, and with an explanation of why. Which is, of course, that their chance of getting a healthy, vigorous, sound animal is almost nill. Even the most responsible and careful, loving and conservative (as to numbers of litters on the ground) Bulldog breeder is going to produce a majority of dogs with multiple, lifelong, (or should I say "life-short") ruinously expensive health issues. Ditto, Pugs, Cavaliers, German Shepherd Dogs, etc. etc.

 

Of course for breeds that still work - sheepdogs, cowdogs, terriers, etc. One goes to a working - non-AKC breeder. This can be tricky with gundogs. Most are AKC registered.

 

I have known many AKC show breeders who were responsible, sensible people who would fight wildcats to safeguard the happiness, health and well-being of their dogs and pups. Most of the ones I knew bred Collies or Shetland Sheepdogs. But if they show in conformation, they all have one blind spot - the appearance standard. Many will try to "breed around" the conditions and heritable diseases associated with their breed. But most will make breeding choices that will keep them "in the ribbons."

 

If you want a Caanan Dog or a Siberian Husky, you don't have a lot of choices - excepting rescue - for getting one anywhere but from a show breeder. But at least with those two breeds, and a few others, you have a chance of getting a sound and healthy pup. (Apart from inbreeding - but I'm assuming a spayed/neutered pet.) Ironically, you could haunt the shelters and come up with a mixed-breed dog that was a dead ringer for these two breeds. That's what I would do.

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Most of the phone calls I got were people wanting a pet. I've heard similar stories from people who breed companion dogs in the area. Because pups are a dime a dozen, people want cheap, fast and no strings attached.

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In other places, religion can play a part, particularly when people view animals (all animals, including dogs) as creatures without souls and something they have been given "dominion" over (somehow they seem to not recognize responsibility and humane treatment as part and parcel of that concept).

I run into this all the time. They think dominion has to do with dominating something instead of stewardship. People use any excuse they can find to behave badly.

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^

 

Yeah, I often wonder when responsibility turned into privelege ... at what juncture we stopped understanding the tremendous responsibility being the planet's apex predator carries.

 

Probably about the same time religion got organized.

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Some of the litter my pup came from are going abroad to various countries and not necessarily just to work. One to Canada, one to the US and one or two to Finland at least. (The distance to Finland is considerably less than the distance some people seem to ship even rescue dogs in the US.)

 

I asked what the one going to the US was going to be doing and the answer was nothing in particular as far as the breeder knew.

 

I did wonder why anyone would go to such trouble and expense to get a dog that was intended primarily as a pet but maybe this thread goes some way to providing the answer.

 

I have never been subjected to a grilling wherever I have got a dog from but I think I probably provide the answers through the information I volunteer and the questions I ask.

 

My pup's breeder is interested in active homes for all their pups but that can be anything from a hiking companion to a potential top class trial dog and all stops in between. But they are all bred with real work in mind, coupled with a good temperament that makes them very adaptable. If they don't sell to the non working market there are plenty of other working breeders who will.

 

I don't know what the answer is for vast countries like the US and Canada where suitable breeders are comparatively thin on the ground. If someone breeds for work, their dogs are in demand for that purpose and they have little competition then it is understandable that some will prefer to limit their sales of pups to working homes.

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TC, tell the woman she could have saved money if she had waited. One thing to remember about the tiny breeds is that more often than not the litter size is small, so there is often a wait time. As sue said, the KC is the best place to go for their breeds (which sadly is becoming more common as they took over other breeds recently including the kelpie).

Most pet stores purchase puppies young-often 4-5 weeks old so they are still 'cute' when the people come in to buy them. they also purchase the puppies very cheaply. I've not been involved directly with any stores that sell pups lately but years ago they would buy pups for $50.oo and sell them for $300-$500. quite a profit as long as the pup didn't get sick etc.

 

additionally, a good breeder will do health checks and since breeds such as the bichon are prone to several health problems it can be costly in the future. PM's keep their costs down by not health checking, falsifying papers, creating their own 'registries' in order to 'register' mixed breeds and avoid policing by others. They even offer 'titles' at their shows to be able to say "from Ch Parents' and the gullible public buys into it.

 

I wish your friend good luck, tell her to be sure to socialize the pup and to definitely teach bite inhibition. Send her to dogstardaily.com for free info on training.

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^^ Or about the same time it became patriarchal rather than balanced.

Yeah, that was my point :) When religion was organized (when Constantine/Nicaea Council codified the bible) it became patriarchal and virtually all of the so-called earth goddess components were eliminated.

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I guess I'm lucky in the way that in my area you can get a dog of near any breed anytime from a newspaper ad. There is really only one really small 'pet shop" that sells puppies and kittens, because there just isn't a huge market for it here with all the private breeders.

 

Being from a farm area, working but non-trailed border collies start at $90. I only paid $200 for Lily who is from working and champion trial lines. Thanks to you guys I knew what to look for in a border collie breeder. There is only one sports breeder in town and she wants 500+ depending on the dog and their 'ability'.

 

Rescues in my area must not be as strict as other places, because I can walk into any of the rescues in my area and walk out with a dog in 2 hours. They basically run your name to determine you don't have animal abuse charges and the dog is yours. Prices vary from $50-300 depending on age, breed(s), size, and whether or not the dog is purebred other than pitbull.

 

However being a private or family breeder isn't really being a 'good' breeder. Before I really knew better I helped my grandma pick out a toy poodle. Our 14 year old toy poodle had just been PTS, so we were eager to fill the void.

 

The breeder we decided on had all kinds of what I now consider 'buzz words', such as purebeed papered, show quality, health guarantee for 90 days, many satisfied owners, ect. The first red flag I should have been that the mother dog bit me when the breeder brought her out, not to mention the puppies were kept locked in a closet unless the breeder was showing them to prospective families and puppies were being bathed and groomed before EVERY showing.

 

The biggest red flag was when she had told us the puppies were 8 weeks old and we had our suspicions otherwise, but we got the little puppy anyway. Our vet informed us the little puppy we bought was only 4 weeks old. However, we couldn't give her back to the breeder, so another missinformed person would just get her anyway. The way we looked at it was at least we had the financial resources to take care of and properly raise a 4 week old puppy. At age 3 (she is now 5) she developed epilepsy and is now on phenobarbital for the remainder of her life, whether or not that was due to bad breeding or not is debatable.

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^

 

Yeah, I often wonder when responsibility turned into privelege ... at what juncture we stopped understanding the tremendous responsibility being the planet's apex predator carries.

 

Probably about the same time religion got organized.

More likely when people started worrying more about religion than belief, which predates Christianity and Constantine by quite a long shot, but religion had to already be a thing. Most people don't even get that there is a difference.

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One of the things that got me going on this was a conversation I had with a woman I sorta know. Her son and daughter-in-law had 2 French bulldogs. I don't know if they came from a puppy mill or a breeder. They lost one of them not all that long ago. It was 4. It had something wrong with it's throat and couldn't swallow. They spent about $15,000 on that dog's vet bills. The other one was 8 and it just died. They spent at least $20,000 on that dog's vet bills. French bulldogs are all the rage right now but it's obviously not going to last. It will be like the sharpie (or however you spell it) where the dogs sold like crazy until people found out that they had serious, and very expensive health problems. Same with the King Charles.

 

The woman I was talking to has a maltese who is having serious back end problems. She just spent $500 last week for tests and 6 laser treatments.

 

Those little dogs can cost over $1,000. I saw in the rags last week where Paris Hilton just spent $20,000 for a Pomeranian that weighed 11 oz. I also saw some time ago where a Chinese billionaire had spent either 1 or 2 million for a Tibetan Mastiff. That was the world's most expensive dog.

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I'm still shaking my head at being able to purchase a BC from working lines (champions no less) for $90. Yikes.

 

 

More likely when people started worrying more about religion than belief, which predates Christianity and Constantine by quite a long shot, but religion had to already be a thing. Most people don't even get that there is a difference.

Bingo.

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From $90 was for working bred but not trialled dogs so not champions.

 

Cass C didn't say whether the breeding would be deliberate or accidental. I would suspect the latter at that price. An awful lot of farmers don't seem to have heard of neutering.

 

Plenty of accidental litters produce decent workers I'm sure though.

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