Jump to content
BC Boards

Dog Are People, Too


Tommy Coyote
 Share

Recommended Posts

I've always felt that animal consciousness is not much different than human. It's the main reason animal abuse affects me so deeply It's why I don't eat meat.. They are conscious just like we are. They just don't think the same as we do - can't think like we do. But they are just as able as humans to feel pain and emotion and fear.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/opinion/sunday/dogs-are-people-too.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Silly title though. Dogs having emotions (and geez ,did they have to put them in an mri scanner to asses that?) does not make them "people".

 

The researcher also seems to be a bit reluctant to grant those same emotions to the animals providing his hamburger (to quote from the article: "Dogs, and probably many other animals (especially our closest primate relatives), seem to have emotions just like us. And this means we must reconsider their treatment as property").

No reason to believe brains of any other mammal don´t work basically the same..

 

His pets can´t be property,but the species he likes to see on his plate, not so eager...

 

(Of course the good man might be a vegetarian ;) )

 

Anyway the whole wording of the article has quite a bit of PETA vibe to me....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

Excuse my annoyance at another instance of scientists laboriously reaching conclusions doggers have known for (at least) thousands of years. Yep. dogs feel and think. Holy Toledo and Happy MRI!!Does this mean my thirty years presuming that they feel and think in order to train them has been validated or that one scientist is slightly less stupid?

 

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

If we went a step further and granted dogs rights of personhood, they would be afforded additional protection against exploitation. Puppy mills, laboratory dogs and dog racing would be banned for violating the basic right of self-determination of a person.

What a can of worms this would be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the general vibe of the posts above.

 

On the one hand, some people don't believe anything unless it has been researched ad nauseum - so perhaps this type of research will help with promoting a more pet-friendly environment ---

 

but on the other hand, the generalization of the research results (i.e. dogs have emotions/feelings) has been known for many years, particularly by people who use dogs for work and even some empathic pet people. (I like D. McCaig's turn of phrase "laboriously reaching conclusions").

 

I am wondering who/which organization provided the funding for this research? And more importantly, how did this reseach grant attain a review score high enough to be funded? Weren't there other research projects needing funding that might provide answers to more pressing problems?

 

Jovi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think dogs are little people in fur coats, or fur babbies, or any other sentimental claptrap. But they obviously can think. I for one am glad that someone is making an effort to put verifiable information out there so the scientists will all get with the program and admit that dogs can think and that they have emotions. If it takes teaching them to put up with an MRI, then so be it.

 

The legal ramifications could indeed get sticky, And then I suppose you will have to have "certified MRI cows" as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

I haven't much sympathy for "scientists" who, blinded by their own methodology persuaded themselves that dogs don't have emotions or thinking capacities. (They and the positivists were the only ones who believed that guff.) Their determined ignorance permitted all sorts of unnecessary, sometimes cruel (see Pavlov) experiments that paid the bills but advanced human understanding not one whit.

 

While ethology is good science, behaviorism is bunk and the new enthusiasm for solving the riddles of the universe with brain scans seems likely to produce less than is promised (remember when decoding the genome was going to do the same thing?)

 

A couple years ago, Japanese scientists discovered that dogs could detect bowel cancer with a high degree of accuracy (80+ percent) long before other instruments can and, since early detection is the only chance for cure, these dogs were pretty important. Instead of finding more dogs, the scientists retired them to try to design electro mechanical probes because - er - they understood electro mechanical probes.

 

Yes, climate change is real. Yes, scientists can be just as dumb as us ordinary bears.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple years ago, Japanese scientists discovered that dogs could detect bowel cancer with a high degree of accuracy (80+ percent) long before other instruments can and, since early detection is the only chance for cure, these dogs were pretty important. Instead of finding more dogs, the scientists retired them to try to design electro mechanical probes because - er - they understood electro mechanical probes.

 

Yes, climate change is real. Yes, scientists can be just as dumb as us ordinary bears.

 

Donald McCaig

There are other scientists still working with cancer detection dogs to help identify the chemical markers the dogs smell in order to develop a rapid, non-subjective, chemical test for these cancers that does not rely upon training scent dogs and continually testing the reliability of scent dogs for use in diagnosing cancer.

 

 

Most scientists believe the data supports human induced climate change (95% confident); it's the politicians that do not believe. Even the very vocal scientist that didn't initially believe and who was financially supported by the Koch brothers to study climate change now believes the data supports human induced climate change.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No offence to the op but even the title sings "stupid" to me. Dogs are not people....

Not to think they have emotions means who ever is thinking that has never really lived with a dog.

 

Dogs are....dogs, amazing, wonderful and capable of more than we will ever know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

My apologies to Mark - I was using shorthand. Longhand: Scientific method has a much better record explaining how things work than other methods: religion, inspiration, Baconian enumeration etc. But its cultural preconceptions unsurprisingly affect what gets looked at and how. I remember 40 years ago how Princeton scientists chuckled about the funding cornucopia for laser research. "They hope there'll be military applications. Death rays, "one scientist snorted.

 

Scientists can be blockheads (like the guy in the Times article) as easily as anyone else. Mark says, " working with cancer detection dogs to help identify the chemical markers the dogs smell in order to develop a rapid, non-subjective, chemical test for these cancers that does not rely upon training scent dogs and continually testing the reliability of scent dogs for use in diagnosing cancer."

 

Scientists (not science) have a poor record with dogs and I suspect dogs make them more uncomfortable than gauges and dials. One would hope that having discovered that some dogs can detect certain cancers faster and more reliably than other methods, sensible medicos would continue using the dogs, and training cancer scent dogs, until a method they like better is devised. Even if they're forced to deal with dog trainers w/o advanced degrees.

 

Donald

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark, I find that sad but so true. Would it really be that costly to follow up on a possible hit by a dog? When this could prevent missing a diagnosis that could be much cheaper when caught early? If possibly saving a life is not enough incentive?

 

 

As far as that article....and the responses. I also hate the title. I also wonder who pays for these things when everyone that has an even semi close relationship with their animals knows that they have feelings and emotion. But I also think that if, an experiment like this may open up eyes enough to maybe give animals more credit...then great.

 

Although the cynic in me thinks that it will not make a difference for the folks that are already guilty of abuse or neglect. After all, women, children and men get abused every day by other so called people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Woman's Best Friend: Dogs being trained to sniff out ovarian cancer - an excellent example of how science and and dogs can come together for research. I think it's more complex than just dogs can or cannot do the job or insurance paying for it. Dogs are excellent tools, but they are living creatures and have the occasional off day, too. Plus the handler needs to be trained as the wrong handler can mess up the dog. Through starting out with canine detection and moving it to a laboratory to isolate just WHAT they're indicating on, there is hope that a straight forward test can be developed.

 

I find this all very fascinating.

 

I took some time to visit the center mentioned in the article when I was on the east coast last week. I'm really hoping they develop some top notch educational programs in the field of working/detection dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of the "it's just a dumb animal" group that I know wouldn't even read an article like this. Why be bothered by the facts?

 

I am not a PETA fan but they aren't always wrong. I've seen them take up some legal challenges that I thought were important, too. Other stuff? They can be pretty far out there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

has anyone ever wondered if dogs ever ask "why", I see that as why dogs or other animals will never be and can never be on the same level as people, I don't see any evidence that they ask why nor make decisions based on understanding why without direct expirence.

 

When you can understand why then you can have a higher level of awareness to your actions vs. just living to react however you see fit at that moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank goodness dogs aren't people. I wouldn't like them nearly so much.

 

I have always thought that animals were a lot like children before they have language. Animals can obviously lear words and what those sounds mean but they have to think in pictures instead of language. That probably isn't giving them as much credit as I should be giving them. I've read that the difference is that they can't think in the abstract. But they can at least a little bit. At my house they all know that we get up at 4 and then they get to eat. They learn what "walk" means and that if they hear that sound it means they are going out to walk. Or "going to the park" . So they can think of future things at least to some extent. My dogs certainly are familiar with several phrases and lots of one word communications.

 

Obviously, animals can't think on the same level as we can but they can think and figure stuff out. They can reason and they can anticipate. They get excited and they can be afraid. But I think the important thing to me is that I think their consciousness of their world is really similar to ours.

 

Humans that have no education are pretty awful. We go through many years of intensive training to get to the level we function at in today's world. Dogs are ahead of us in that they have instinct to guide them. But if you add years of training onto that instinct they can do amazing stuff. Look at that border collie who recognizes 1200 words.

 

Are they capable of morality or guilt? I doubt it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They learn what "walk" means and that if they hear that sound it means they are going out to walk. Or "going to the park" . So they can think of future things at least to some extent. My dogs certainly are familiar with several phrases and lots of one word communications

 

Are you 100% certain that they know what the phrase means as opposed to offering you a behavior that they have been conditioned to offer which in turn you have identified as meaning walk or park? It can be very difficult sometimes to identify the difference between a conditioned response and a display of actions that indicate that the dog is actually understanding exactly was is to come when they display those actions. Dogs are masters when it comes to reading subtle body language and tone inflections, especially border collies, with out us even knowing it we can be telegraphing what behavior we are expecting them to offer to us at any given moment making us honestly believe that they are the ones that initiated the idea.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dogs know that after the News goes off to start watching my husband for any sign that he is about ready to take them for a walk, and they wait until 9pm to tell me it's dinnertime. They are definitely anticipating a future event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Debbie: It's so hard to know just what they know and what is just them reacting to my body language. But I do think they anticipate some things.

 

Look at dogs that dive under the bed when you say "bath." They may be putting together several things like the way you look at them and the way you start to get sneaky or when you start getting sneaky and piling up towels but they do seem to have a really good idea of what is coming.

 

I think the puppy is starting to anticipate his morning ride to the park and his walk once we get there.

 

Now, do dogs ask "why?"

 

I can't remember any time when I thought that is what they were asking. But I swear I have seen working dogs say "what?" when a handler gives them the wrong command. I've seen them turn around and just look at the handler instead of taking off. They know that command is wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

Part of the difficulty with these sorts of discussions is our human bias. Since we fly F-16s creatures who don't are rated by how close they are to seizing the controls.

 

But dogs have a complete, complex sense we lack: scenting. Wherever they are a reality we cannot imagine surrounds them - as well as pretty good versions of the sight/sound/tactile realities we enjoy. For a dog it must sometimes seem as if they are sighted creatures being trained by one blind man after another.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, do dogs ask "why?"

 

Of all my dogs my lurcher came closest. He'd humour me a couple of times and then look at me as if I was an idiot for wanting another repetition of something he had done perfectly satisfactorily, even with varied rewards - and you need pretty high value rewards to get a lurcher to do anything for you.

 

You don't get that with a BC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...