Need To Make A Major Health Decision - Input Welcome

[Juju]

Hi,

I don't really have much to say but wish you all the best & it sounds like you are a loving responsible owner and no doubt any decision you decide to make will be the best one.

 

Something that did come to my mind, however, and not everyone likes to go down the natural therapy road..but what about acupuncture or hydrotherapy?

 

I used to work with an amazing animal acupuncturist and the results of the animals was out of this world. Some dogs would need to be carried in on their first one or two treatments then bounded out on their last. It was truely unbelievable to see this sort of therapy work its wonders.

 

Our late border with hip dysplasia recieved acupuncture every 8 weeks and although obviously it wasn't a cure for him, it was definatly the next best thing. It was also so helpful for his arthritis is other areas.

 

Good luck

[CMP]

No urinary tract infection - stool samples sent in today so we will see what comes from this last panel.

 

I am completely open to holistic remedies - and have already consulted a naturopathic vet via phone and will be meeting with her today. Which met with all sorts of raised eyebrows from the traditional veterinary brigade.

 

Not to compare naturopathy with anything sketchy, but I'll get her an astrologer and a psychic medium if it will help

 

As I type this, she has just come back in from her morning business and you would swear that (a) she has no lameness whatsoever, including a fully happy looking squat and that ( playing a game of "goalkeeper" (many tennis balls, rolling, ground catches) would be just fine and I worry too much ...

 

*sigh*

[CMP]

Thanks so much to everyone for their input. It was much appreciated.

 

Today's xray seems to prove out the strain/sprain theory. The ortho specialist that saw her this morning is quite certain there is no ligament or cartilage damage of any kind. Her hips still look beautiful No bone density issues. Pano has more or less been ruled out. As has dysplasia and OCD.

 

The working theory is that she sprained her right hind leg. In compensating for that, she strained her left rear leg.

 

She has only a bit of residual lameness in the original bad leg and it is only noticeable from her wonky gaits. She skips canter and goes to a weird, stilted transverse gallop thingie.

 

Which is the best of all the possible options, to be frank. This can be managed with pain medication, some massage therapy and rest - it will eventually simply go away and in the meanwhile the dog will govern herself to a great degree if the past three weeks of semi-crate rest are any indication.

 

What I have done is eliminated the kibble from her diet and went to whole food. Which is the opposite of what I did last week but after much thought and listening to many smart people talk, I decided my first instincts were right and I was going to hold my ground against our regular farm vet who ... does not like the idea as much as I do :/

 

So, I met with a nutritionist (well, a vet for whom this is a particular interest) and we created a diet for Molly which makes both of us happy and causes the rest of the people on the farm to dig further into their "crazy dog lady" ideas about me :/ Essentially, I am putting her on an adult diet with a few extras to account for her still developing body. More fruits and vegetables and fish oils - aiming for a 20-21% protien intake.

 

I am going to keep her activity more restricted than it had been. Essentially she was a free roam dog who chose when she wanted to be inside or outside, was really never leashed or tethered and for whom a crate was just a thing that you had to be in when you went in a car or a doorless thing for when you wanted to go off and sleep in a dark place. We're both adjusting.

 

Just to update anyone who chimed in. Again, thanks for the input - I read and considered every reply.

[Maxi]

^^this^^

 

As you say it,s the best possible outcome. Glad it is so positive and the symptoms are resolving. It must be a real relief to you (and your pup)

[GentleLake]

Happy top hear the good news.

 

As for fruits and veggies in her diet, what's the point? She's a carnivore. A little here and there isn't going to hurt, but she really doesn't need them and isn't going to gain a whole lot from them.

[CMP]

Welp. Nothing good comes from crate rest, as it turns out.

 

She actually got worse. Much worse. Some days she could not walk without a great deal of pain. Relieving herself was torture. Other days, she was positively livid to be cooped up and you would not have known, not by any means whatsoever, that she had anything at all wrong with her - every gait perfect, no stiffness, no pain, no hesitation.

 

Much too much to type but two plane trips, several consecutive digital radiographic panels, a slew of other tests of every possible variety and today we have arrived at a "final answer".

 

Panosteitis. From murky to shadowy to unmistakeable - stippling in the left tibia.

 

She is now 35 pounds, despite being on a DRASTICALLY reduced diet and shows out as a thin dog. At 4 months + 3 weeks, she is heavier by 3 pounds than her mother. She is averaging over 3 pounds a week in weight gain since her 14th week. Which is, of course, insane. She looks vaguely ridiculous with tree trunk front legs, a really impressive chest, gangly too long hind legs that look like they might break any second and a dainty little head (with wildly growing red tipped ear wings that always stick out and look mangy no matter what I do).

 

Her growth rate is the larger concern and if it does not stop soon I will have a Clifford, the Big Red(dish) Border Collie dog on my hands. Vets are banging heads, I am getting poorer by the second and Molly is being stoic, bless her little Scottish soul.

 

From too lame to get up to "let's go conquer the world, Ma!", it's a journey. Poor little thing. And I am trying to make decisons regarding pain control. I am very much not wanting to get into opiates or the like - yet her pain is sometimes intense (she never whines - she just loses all her willingness to engage in any way with the world) - so I am trying to work with a few professionals to find dietary and supplemental answers.

 

It is self limiting and I am adopting a bit of a "self monitoring" position and letting her decide what she feels like doing. Running and jumping won't hurt her except in the way that dogs who are favouring one limb will stress the others - so I will not likely let her totally free run as before, and will control the limits of her self-determined activities and keep her opportunities and temptations limited - but she can go back to being a puppy, more or less.

 

Which is a relief, in a way.

 

The crate rest, at 6 weeks in, was starting to wear on her. The days she felt fine she was so pissed off. The days she was feeling lousy she was so sad. She had never really been kept away from the rest of the crew and her people before and she did not like it. Even with her big wire crate in the middle of the action all the time, it was still a big wire crate and she resented it.

 

Anyway.

 

No answers yet as to the growth thing. Possibly just "one of those things". We even had the original diet analyzed (as the farm puppies get the same diet, it was a concern that it was protien rich or too rich in some other way) and it was in exactly the intended ranges. I don't treat a lot, so it wasn't that. I don't supplement unless a specific deficiency is present so it's not that. She was not a big eater, so it's not that. But if it does not level off soon, Pano will be only the first of many problems she will face in her later life. The stuff that holds the bones together can take only so much stress and can grow only so fast.

 

So ... frying pan to fire. Sorta. I dunno.

 

I have developed an abiding respect for this dog, quite aside from the love and affection I feel for her. I find her remarkable and, in a strange way, inspiring. I should be so ... uncomplaining

[Maxi]

The last thing anyone wants is a dog that features in a vet's 'unusual case report'...unless of course they find some great solution.!

 

I really feel for you and your pup..and yes their stoic acceptance of what life throws at them can be so heartbreaking and inspiring at the same time..and I can only presume that with your other dog being ill as well, it must sometimes be tough to keep feeling positive over things.

 

I guess there is nothing, (however odd) in the previous 24 hours that could be inducing the pain..on top of the pano? Do you keep a full diary that may give clues?

 

.. I know you want to sort her pain, but IMO (non vet here!) I'm not certain that opiates are the way to go purely because for human cancer patients, opiates are not good at managing bone pain. Perhaps something like hydrotherapy may help on the lateral thinking view that non impact exercise would improve the blood flow. Alternatively is there some capsaicin derivative suitable for dogs? (Topical comfrey is also very good for muscle and boney pain, but if too much is ingested it can lead to liver failure, so I don't know if this would be an option for a pup)

 

 

Anyway.. Good luck, hope she stops growing soon.

[Maxi]

Finally remembered how I managed an older dog who was suffering chronic pain in his shoulder following an injury and I didn't want to over-medicate him.....magnets. I Figured that if folk in the horse industry felt they worked, it was worth a shot. But the ones specially made for dogs ( esp electromagnetic beds) were outside my budget especially for something I wasn't sure would be effective.

 

So I bought a whole lot of high quality high strength therapeutic magnets (cost just a few bucks for 10 from an online specialist magnet store). I stuck them using gaffer tape (glue didn't work) on an adapted (strengthened and padded) holster spacing them about 5cm apart and also made doubly sure there was no way that he could chew off the holster and swallow the magnets. I put it on the dog at night (took off during the day).

 

My opinion at the time was that it was effective..but obviously this is subjective and despite my best I intentions, I was inevitably a biased observer

 

Anyway...just a thought

[CMP]

I want to avoid any opiates or steroids, as does her vet, thankfully. She can't decide but I believe she would opt for a little pain now in exchange for a lifetime of ... well, life.

 

Nyla, the ailing Berner, has rallied and is enjoying life a little again - so that was a positive. We joke around the house about her being much happier since she became a pothead. In fact, if Molly were not 4-5 months old, I would try that. But that's not an option for her.

 

Last night Molly was feeling terrible so I got the bright idea to give her a Jacuzzi. Of course, I ended up having to get in with her. After a few moments of crazy flailing, she seemed to (grudgingly) like it and walked much better when she got out.

 

I will definitely give magnets a try - they are on my list of unconventional therapies to check into.

 

Thanks

[juliepoudrier]

It seems to me the only way to limit growth is to reduce calories. Can you go to a large breed puppy food (if that's not what you're using already--I can't remember and don't have time to go back and re-read) or similar to try to slow growth?

 

J.

[CMP]

It seems to me the only way to limit growth is to reduce calories. Can you go to a large breed puppy food (if that's not what you're using already--I can't remember and don't have time to go back and re-read) or similar to try to slow growth?

 

J.

She's actually getting the equivalent of an "adult large breed over-weight joint issues" diet. So, small caloric intake, drastically reduced protiens. Any other circumstance and I would be harming my puppy by doing such a thing. Very strange stuff indeed.

 

I have meetings today to discuss feeding options. I suspect we will end up on a heavily supplemented, low calorie, high filler diet. Forcing the correct collection of nutritional elements while still keeping her feeling like she's had food. Obviously, this is the next area to concentrate on - the weight gain thing. Today's weigh in, combined with yesterday's/day before's indicate the growth is levelling a bit - but too small a sample to really tell.

 

Luckily, her case has attracted academic attention (maybe it was all the phone calls I made and foot stomping I did to get her into the University lab for her initial scans) and much of the analysis, examination and treatment is going to be subsidized from this point forward - something I will monitor to ensure she is not becoming a guinea pig - frankly, I'd rather pay for it myself if it gets silly. But I do want to get to the bottom of it, so ...

[Maralynn]

Glad you finally know what is going on but sorry that she is still in so much pain So are there any working theories on why she is growing so quickly? Also, do you know how the rest of the litter is growing?

[Maxi]

...If her growth is slowing then great, but if not then in all the slew of tests has anyone checked her hormone levels?

[CMP]

Her litter mates are all small - none over 22 pounds so far. None of them have developed any issues.

 

She was the runt - by quite a margin.

 

She has one very large dog in her lines, I discovered this morning. A 60# male who lived to be 23. So, go figure.

 

Her mother has never once thrown a puppy (from three litters) that was larger than 33 pounds at full weight, as far as I can ascertain. Her father was only bred twice and all his progeny are also small-ish, stocky, strong boned dogs. In fact, his bones and build were the reason I selected him as the sire. He's a very solid dog, good in close quarters, never had an injury, what he loses in speed he gains in sure footedness and athletic ability and strength, yada yada. Her mother is , quite literally, a "tiny little thing" who runs like a gazelle and is nearly preternatural on mountain terrain.

 

So ... yeah ... if one is interested, as I am, in the breeding of Border Collies - it's interesting data, even if it proves to be anomalous enough not to alter any existing perceptions.

[Blackdawgs]

I'm sorry to hear about your pup.

 

Has she been evaluated by an endocrinologist to determine if the wierd growth rate is being caued by a hormone abnormality?

[CMP]

Her initial bloodwork showed nothing anomalous.

 

The secondary bloodwork showed nothing anomalous.

 

They are doing bloodwork now, as I type, on her (she is having a digital xray at the moment and I am waiting) and will go to some other analytical level, I presume.

 

Then no more xrays for quite a while - she's still well under danger level with exposure but why add ANY factor - even a remote chance one - to the mix now?

 

Hormones make sense and I expect she will end up with some sort of issue/treatment there. She lost several teeth yesterday and is starting to look a little like a female about to go into her first heat. Which would be early, but would fit in with the accelerated growth.

 

Her growth plates are nowhere near closed and so I will not be spaying her any time soon - so I guess we will have a heat to contend with - mayhaps this will equalize the growth (one vet suggests as a possibility and even suggested into thin air induction which I shot down instantly).

 

I will be very happy when I know enough to be comfortable that I am treating her as best as she can be treated.

[gcv-border]

Molly is lucky to have such an educated and persistent 'Mama Bear'!

 

I hope her growth levels out. Good to hear that some of the tests going forward will be free in the interest of academic knowledge. I agree that having an animal that is a medical mystery is not something that I enjoy (having had one or two in the past). It seems that sometimes the issues resolve themselves, and other times, the end is not so happy.