English Shepherds/Border Collies

[D'Elle]

I met my first English Shepherd a few days ago. She looked exactly like a rough-coated tri-colored (and very fat) BC. I asked the owner what the differences were between BCs and Eng. Sheps, because I suspect that if a BC rescue group saw this dog in a shelter they'd take her in as a BC. The owner said that Eng. Sheps have a "looser eye" than BCs do, and that they, according to her, "think more".

 

Just wondering what you folks who know more about this than I do would say are the differences. Could a person tell the difference on appearance at all? Looking at Eng. Shep. websites I have to admit I don't know if I could.

D'Elle

[sea4th]

I was agreeing with everything she said until she said "think more". What does that mean?

 

English shepherds, along with working upright, tend to bark more. They are more the old, all round farm collie type of dog.

 

Pete, the dog in my avatar could have been and was occasionally mistaken for an ES, but there was no doubt what he was when he went to work.

[Chesney's Girl]

Chesney is my Border Collie. He is a quiet worker, works with his eye (most of the time). Chesney is also a finer boned dog.

 

Tucker is my English Shepherd. Tucker is very upright when he works, he does bark a far amount, and uses intimidation and bodily presence to move his stock. Also I am told it is normal for an English Shepherd to work with their tail held gayly while they work stock but down when they hunt. The one thing about English Shepherds is they will hunt and critter as well. They seem to be a little more happy, go lucky and a little less business like than Border Collies. Tucker has a rock solid temperament and not a whole lot phases him. He loves kids!

 

Tucker on the left. Chesney on the right

[Debbie Meier]

Depends on the dog, depends on the breeder, depends on the selection. Most breeders select for upright and less eye, but I've seen some with eye and they were far from upright. The breeders that I have met wanted dogs that worked with them, could be left in the yard without supervision, did not work on their own, but had enough balance and stock drive to assist in bringing the cows in or gathering up the ducks or chickens. Personally, they are only as far removed from the Border Collie as the Border Collies that are being bred on farms only as companions, pets or to do the same style of tasks, basically a low drive Border Collie. I might be mistaken but don't they credit the foundation of their breed to border collies, or a heavy influence? As to weight, I think it is related to the lower drive, I know it's my problem

 

Deb

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

English shepherds are bred to be all-around farm dogs. They pride themselves on not just offering dogs that can bring in the stock, but also tend the yard (Timmy fell in the well, the bull broke the fence and got in the neighbor's corn), serve as a farm guardian, and go out hunting to boot.

 

Their stock historically dates from the time before there was such a thing as a Border/Bearded/Rough/Smooth/whatever collie. Basically they were just sheepdogs that came over with homesteaders that immigrated from the UK, or else with UK shepherds that came with imported finewool stock.

 

The very large range flocks here selected for more of a "traveling" style of work rather than the eye that would come to be the signature of the British hill breed, just as it did with the Australian shepherd slightly later, and this translated well over to the herds of cattle that invaded the west after the Civil War. Homesteaders continued to appreciate the versatile little "farm collie" which survived pretty much right up to when homesteading no longer was an important part of the American culture (which is a much later date than you may realize, by the way).

 

English Shepherds and Border Collies are hugely different, more different than Aussies and Border Collies, I think. An ES has GOT to know "what's the point" whereas a Border Collie will do it for you, and an Aussie will do it for you, or maybe for fun.

 

A really well bred ES has more in common with my livestock guardian dogs than my Border Collies. I really enjoy being around them - they have an interesting mindset. I think you are starting to see "sport bred" ESes just like with the Border Collies which is kind of a shame, and I've heard they've lost that thoughtful nature - but I trust that's a small slice of the breed - I can't imagine an ES with the yeehaw of a sport collie.

 

I really hate the term "upright" - it's a silly broad brush - we Border Collie people are on one side and those upright breeds are on the other. English Shepherds tend to work the "flow" if you know what I mean. They watch for troublemakers rather than staying right on the heads. They do stay back and they can catch eyes when need be - or at least many of them can, once trained up. If you've ever seen a Rough Collie work - forget that - it's not like that.

 

I used to be good friends with the former head of ES rescue. I've fostered about half a dozen ES rescues - great fun. Wow, gone are the days when we were so bored in BOTH Border Collie rescue and ES rescue that we would foster each other's dogs.

[Kathy Chittenden]

http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Perm...BC_Cousins.html

 

Carole Presberg has gathered a lot of information on this page on "BC Cousins" - I'm not sure the links all still work correctly. I clicked on English Shepherds and it wasn't what I remembered it being. I recall a page where she had side by side photos and descriptions of how the Australian Shepherd, BC, and ES all differed.

 

Poking around the BC Museum is always a good read though!

 

Kathy

[bsms99]

That is a great picture. I feel like I know both dogs personalities just by looking at them. Of course, I could be 180 degrees off - but it seems their personality is jumping out of the computer screen!

[Sue_Deutscher]

Here is a good article in Wiki about English Shepherds:

 

English Shepherds

[Chesney's Girl]

Becca said it way better than I could have begun to put into words.

[PennyT]

“Their stock historically dates from the time before there was such a thing as a Border/Bearded/Rough/Smooth/whatever collie. Basically they were just sheepdogs that came over with homesteaders that immigrated from the UK, or else with UK shepherds that came with imported finewool stock.”

 

I’ve been researching terms for a few years now. In the 1800s and before as well, ES described various landraces used on livestock in Great Britain. In many usages from the United States, ES was completely interchangeable with collie which, in turn, was completely interchangeable with shepherd dog and sheep dog. However, at least half the references to English Shepherd dogs from between 1840 or so to 1900 define the strain in a way that more likely means a dog akin to what became the OES looking dogs than what is now called an English Shepherd or a farm collie.

The reader of a diary or other account from the U. S. stating that Mr. Semiwether or Mrs Deauxinoeaux had the best or worst working English shepherd dog the writer had ever seen is in no way justified in drawing any conclusions about the type of landrace sheepdog without other evidence. I don’t know if the same is true of Great Britain, NZ, or Australia.

Some farm collie and ES folks seem to think a mention of an ES dog a century ago referred to a precursor strain or perhaps the strain that they think of as ES because the words were the same. The mindset reminds of thinking that border collies didn’t exist until Old Hemp was born or until someone, probably in Australia around 1900 so far as I can tell, named them.

[D'Elle]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful replies. I feel that I know a lot more now about the differences. And I have some resources for more information.

thanks again!!

D'Elle

[SoloRiver]

The ACD page linked from Carole Presburg's "BC Cousins" webpage was an interesting read.

 

http://www.cattledog.com/misc/history.html

 

It basically states that when fanciers got the ACD into the AKC, they were forced to 86 an awful lot of dogs that they owned and that had characteristics they liked, because they did not meet the AKC's requirement of documentation of Australian roots. In other words, the semblance of purity was more important to the AKC than actual breed type. I guess that isn't very surprising.

[Debbie Meier]

The ACD page linked from Carole Presburg's "BC Cousins" webpage was an interesting read.

 

http://www.cattledog.com/misc/history.html

 

It basically states that when fanciers got the ACD into the AKC, they were forced to 86 an awful lot of dogs that they owned and that had characteristics they liked, because they did not meet the AKC's requirement of documentation of Australian roots. In other words, the semblance of purity was more important to the AKC than actual breed type. I guess that isn't very surprising.

 

 

Depending on the source you read there is some despute as to whether or not they had to 86 all those dogs, there is one account that claims that they did not have to but chose to, if I recall correctly that account also claims that in doing so they have saved the breed. I can't prove it, but I think by that time, that the questionable liniage dogs were enough different then the show dogs that the show dog people would not have considered the other strain as a loss, they were better served to reimport to get what they wanted (show dogs) then to try to achieve it by staying within those that were bred here in the US. As I said, I can't prove it, it's speculation. I can say, that Wayne's old working Australian Cattle Dogs were way different then what you see now in breed ring, they look different, they act different and they work different.

 

Deb

[D Strickland]

This tread couldn't come at a more perfect time. I have been thinking of getting an ES for months now and was just thinking last night that I should contact my ES friend Jaime and see if he has any pups coming up.

 

My reason for wanting a dog other than a Border Collie is to make me a more rounded handler.

 

Then only two things holding me back is the barking and the lack of focus a BC has ( which might drive me up the wall ).

 

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is whether or not an ES would be good as a loose eyed breed for me to train to work sheep or if there is a better "loose-eyed" breed out there.

 

Thanks,

[Debbie Meier]

This tread couldn't come at a more perfect time. I have been thinking of getting an ES for months now and was just thinking last night that I should contact my ES friend Jaime and see if he has any pups coming up.

 

My reason for wanting a dog other than a Border Collie is to make me a more rounded handler.

 

Then only two things holding me back is the barking and the lack of focus a BC has ( which might drive me up the wall ).

 

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is whether or not an ES would be good as a loose eyed breed for me to train to work sheep or if there is a better "loose-eyed" breed out there.

 

Thanks,

 

As for one breed better then the other, IMO, no, only good individuals and people that have developed a program that produces good individuals. Before purchasing you really need to see in person as to how the breeder handlers their dog, in the case of our ACD's a breeder may know the lingo and talk the talk, but when you go to see their dogs, what they consider good balance, control or drive is nothing compared to what is possible. Personally, if you want to try out a different breed I would not worry about specific breed, look for an exceptional individual, unless there is a particular breed that you fancy, then hunt high and low for dogs that work as you expect and select a candidate from those strains.

 

Deb

[D Strickland]

Personally, if you want to try out a different breed I would not worry about specific breed, look for an exceptional individual, unless there is a particular breed that you fancy, then hunt high and low for dogs that work as you expect and select a candidate from those strains.

 

Deb

 

Thanks Deb ... Good point ... There really aren't any working ES ( other than AKC A Course ... which is not really herding ... ).

 

I'll keep an eye out - guess I'll have to attend some AHBA trials.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Dave, if you need a dog not just for driving/gathering large herds, possibly different types of stock, but also as farm watchdog, hunting over, etc - then you might look into a good ES line, yes.

 

If you'd like just to train a dog with less eye, I'd suggest looking into a line of Border Collies with less eye. Although, as a novice that's where I started and I would not still be a novice if I hadn't, bless my old Ben's pea pickin' heart.