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If a Nursery dog places in the top 20% of an Open time/points arena trial, does that qualify as one leg towards Finals?

Friend told me yes, but the rules specify: F) The nursery dogs must run a full National style course, without the shedding work, in order to be a qualifying class.

Also curious to hear opinions of what a 'full National style coures' means? To me, it would mean the same course as Open but why didn't they just say that? In my area, Nursery is usually same course as Pro/Nov.

regards Lani

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If a Nursery dog places in the top 20% of an Open time/points arena trial, does that qualify as one leg towards Finals?

Friend told me yes, but the rules specify: F) The nursery dogs must run a full National style course, without the shedding work, in order to be a qualifying class.

Also curious to hear opinions of what a 'full National style coures' means? To me, it would mean the same course as Open but why didn't they just say that? In my area, Nursery is usually same course as Pro/Nov.

regards Lani

 

"Full National Style Course" is outrun, lift, fetch drive, shed, pen (actually it's outrun, lift, fetch, drive, shed, pen, single)

 

E) A Nursery dog must place two (2) times in the top twenty percent (20%) (rounded to the nearest whole number) of dogs competing in any Nursery Class of five (5) dogs or more, sanctioned by the USBCHA, to qualified to compete in the Nursery Championship Finals. A Nursery dog that places in the top 20% of a full National style judged Open class counts as a qualifying placing.

So, place twice in either; top 20% Nursery trial with 5 or more dogs that has outrun, lift, fetch, shed, pen OR top 20% in an Open trial (which would be all of the same + shed and/or single)

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I don't know for sure, but the rules say this:

E) <snip>A Nursery dog that places in the top 20% of a full National style judged [emphasis added] Open class counts as a qualifying placing.

 

That says to me that a points/time trial would not qualify as it's not judged. But someone from the USBCHA leadership might have a better answer.

 

J.

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"Full National Style Course" is outrun, lift, fetch drive, shed, pen (actually it's outrun, lift, fetch, drive, shed, pen, single)

 

So, place twice in either; top 20% Nursery trial with 5 or more dogs that has outrun, lift, fetch, shed, pen OR top 20% in an Open trial (which would be all of the same + shed and/or single)

 

My understanding is that Nursery trials don't have a shed. So an arena trial that includes an outrun, a lift, fetch, some driving and a pen, would qualify?

Julie> time/point trials still have a judge who keeps track of the points/time/grips etc.

 

thanks for the replies, Lani

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Hi Lani,

I would question whether keeping track of time and points qualifies as actual judging (since anyone can keep track of points and time, no real experience or judgment required), but really you might just want to direct your question to Francis and she will get a definitive answer for you. I imagine, though, that she has no way of knowing whether the trial in question is an arena trial or any other sort of trial when the placings are sent to her, so if you place in the top 20 percent, you'd have a nursery leg.

 

The larger question would be whether a dog who earned its nursery legs in arena trials would be up to competing against dogs who earned their legs in actual field trials (same old discussion as the one about a dog earning enough points in open in arena trials to qualify for the finals).

 

J.

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Julie

 

I agree with your interpretation of the rule re "judged".An arena trial although tough does not test the dog in the way a true nursery course would.The nursery finals for which the "qualification" is meant is a field trial.

 

Jim Murphy

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If the trial is sanctioned on the USBCHA website I expect that points/qualifications will counted toward Finals.

 

Regardless of what a individual person feels is an acceptable nursery qualifier what counts is USBCHA. Point time arena trials have been sanctioned and counted by USBCHA as Nursery and also Open qualifiers by USBCHA in the past and they continue to sanction and count them.

 

 

Deb

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Debbie, your comments are of course true, but they don't address the judged vs. not judged issue (or sheep vs. cattle for that matter), which is why I suggested the OP ask one of the people at USBCHA, who surely would be able to find a definitive answer. IMO points/time trials are not true judged trials. I don't think the open rules make this distinction, but I could be wrong.

 

J.

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Debbie, your comments are of course true, but they don't address the judged vs. not judged issue (or sheep vs. cattle for that matter),

 

What issue? As I understand it based on what trials are sanctioned/counted from points USBCHA has no issue, they accept both forms of trials along with judged arena trials.

 

 

 

IMO points/time trials are not true judged trials. I don't think the open rules make this distinction, but I could be wrong.

 

You have the issue, not USBCHA

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Actually, we don't know if USBCHA has an issue, because no one has yet asked. Much depends on the interpretation of the meaning of judged. The OP didn't ask about sanctioning of trials (we all know USBCHA sanctions arena trials), but whether a points and time trial could count toward a nursery qualification. I quoted the USBCHA rules that say a nursery trial must be judged. I don't think counting points and keeping time counts as judging, but perhaps USBCHA feels otherwise (it's obvious you feel otherwise, but you aren't the USBCHA). The fact is that we don't know what the rules mean by "judged" and whether the trial in question would be counted as judged, or if it even matters to USBCHA.

 

I understand that you run mostly in arena trials and are sensitive to the issue. I guess that's your problem. And it doesn't change the fact of the wording of the rules. After all, USBCHA has clarified rules pertaining to nursery trials in the recent past.

 

J.

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Julie, regardless as to whether or not you feel I am sensitive of arena/field debate it still does not change the fact that arena and point time trials are both sanctioned and counted as National Qualifying trials.

 

As far as I'm concerned USBCHA can limit sanctioning to judged open field trials, go ahead and mandate the description that is within the 2010/2011 minutes and voted on in December.

 

 

Beverly Lambert motioned , seconded by Jim Murphy the “Responsibility for Laying out the course” listed below. Motion passed.

 

Jim Murphy yes Barb Ross yes Beverly Lambert yes Amanda Milliken yes

Sonia Craig no Bob Stephens yes Dick Williams yes George Stambulic yes

Wilda Bahr yes Ron Burkey yes Warren Mick no Marianna Schreeder yes

Norma Stewart yes Judy Thayer Barbara Ray yes Dan Keeton yes

Barbara Levinson yes

 

THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR LAYING OUT THE COURSE IN ACCORDANCE WITH

THE RULES RESTS WITH THE TRIALS COMMITTEE.

The Course, Scale of Points and Time Limit now fixed by the Directors are set out below. The Trials shall be on 4-5 sheep so selected that each competitor shall receive the same class of sheep if possible. Subject to the reservation that the Course may be altered by the Trials Committee, the Trial shall, if possible, be decided on the following Course, Scale of Points and Time Limit,

viz:

 

Preliminary Round

Sheep 4-5 sheep

Gather 400 yards from handler.

Fetch. Set of gates = 7 yards apart, 150 yards from handler, in the centre of the course.Drive 450 yards over triangular course, 2 sets of gates = 7 yards apart. First set of gates approximately 150 yards from handler. In the case of a short course, when fetch is less than 400 yards, the drive will be lengthened when possible so that the total length of the fetch and the drive is 850 yards, or as near to this length as is reasonably practical. Shedding ring 40 yards in diameter Pen 9 feet x 8 feet wide with a gate 8 feet wide, secured by a rope 6 feet long. The gate must open to not less than 170 degrees.

 

 

 

Semi Final

 

Sheep 5 sheep (3 unmarked and 2 marked with red collars). Gather 450-500 yards from handler. Remainder of the course same guidelines At the completion of the drive two unmarked sheep will be shed followed by the pen. At the completion of the pen one marked sheep to be singled.

 

Final

Sheep, 1st packet 10 sheep preferably unseen by dog. Gathering Approximately 600-800 yards from handler.

Fetch Set of gates = 9 yards wide to a post fixed 20 yards through the gate in the centre of the field.

Sheep, 2nd packet 10 sheep preferably unseen by dog. Gathering Approximately 800 yards from the handler. Drive Total of 600 yards on a triangular course with 2 sets of gates = 9 yards apart. First set of gates to be approximately 200 yards from the handler.

Shedding Ring 40 yards in diameter.

Pen 9 feet x 8 feet with a gate 8 feet wide to which is secured a rope 6 feet long. The Gate must open to not less than 170 degrees.

 

 

Don't see anything limiting this to National Finals but also don't see anything stating that the scoring can't be based on the number of head through each obstacle with time as a tie breaker. So, it still would allow for point/time arena trials, just not reasonable to have a combined 850 yard fetch and drive.

 

eta: Let's say the above becomes mandated and the loop holes are closed, they require the course to be judged based on specific point values and based on the judging guideline and then set a 25% thresh hold on leg lengths, basically a 400 yard fetch can be no shorter then 300 yards. How many sanctioned trials would we have left?

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Debbie,

You are taking the discussion in a whole different direction; it looks to me like what you've quoted is a description of the finals course and I'm not sure what that has to do with nursery qualifying. The OP asked if a points and time trial counted for a nursery qualifying leg. All I did was quote part of the rules for nursery trials, which states that the course must be judged. Of course, those are the sheepdog rules; maybe they're different for cattle trials, and Lani didn't say which she was talking about. And I said the best thing for the OP to do was ask USBCHA directly. If USBCHA thinks that any person standing there keeping time and counting head through obstacles qualifies as a judge for that particular trial, then the course is officially judged in the eyes of the USBCHA and all rules are met. If keeping points and time is not considered judging, then the nursery rules are not being met. It's that simple. It's not a value judgement or anything else.

 

We all understand that USBCHA sanctions arena trials and accepts scores from them for points purposes. I will repeat: only USBCHA can say whether the rule, as quoted directly from the rulebook on the USBCHA website, is being followed, and whether any of us likes or agrees with the rule is immaterial (except that if someone thinks the rule should be changed, then they can propose such a change to their USBCHA director).

 

J.

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I was not questioning whether time/points trials are 'judged'. I assume that USBCHA considers them to be judged since they are sanctioned and points earned at them are counted. I am referring to sheep trials not cattle trials although I also assume they are the same. My question was more about why the rules regarding Nursery specify 'full National style course' and what that means. I am curious why this is specified for Nursery while I cannot find anything similar for Open finals. Pearse said it means a course with an outrun, lift, fetch, drive & pen. But that could describe just about any arena course including AKC, AHBA and ASCA as well as the usual USBCHA arena trials.

Nursery dogs get qualified in Nursery trials or Open trials. Open dogs can get qualifying points at arena trials. Therefore one would assume that if a Nursery dog got qualifying points in an Open arena trial, it would count. That was my opinion until I read the 'full National....' rule. What does this mean and why is it there for Nursery but not Open?

IMO, the intent was to mean an Open size/style course. However, the trial sanction form has nothing on it to specify what kind of course is run. Therefore Francis would not know from one trial to another, whether they are field or arena courses.

BTW, this does not affect me as I don't have a Nursery dog. This was about a discussion with a friend who has one. Further....Nursery dogs in the past have earned qualifications from arena trials. Debate about whether this makes them competitive for Finals or not is for another discussion.

thanks Lani

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Hi Lani,

I would question whether keeping track of time and points qualifies as actual judging (since anyone can keep track of points and time, no real experience or judgment required), but really you might just want to direct your question to Francis and she will get a definitive answer for you. I imagine, though, that she has no way of knowing whether the trial in question is an arena trial or any other sort of trial when the placings are sent to her, so if you place in the top 20 percent, you'd have a nursery leg.

 

Hi Julie,

I don't need to ask Francis as you are correct, she has no way of knowing....plus she has told my friend that the arena trial in question would count and has counted in the past.

 

 

>>The larger question would be whether a dog who earned its nursery legs in arena trials would be up to competing against dogs who earned their legs in actual field trials (same old discussion as the one about a dog earning enough points in open in arena trials to qualify for the finals).

 

Yes this is another interesting topic. I don't know of anyone who has earned points in arena trials that does not also compete in big field trials to prepare/qualify for finals. But if you can earn a whack of points at a big arena(lots of dogs) trial over the winter, it can sure relax you, when you run at the field trials the rest of the year.

IMO both arena & field trials are a test of a dog and handler. They test different things but both are good. An arena trial can be closer to 'yard' or chore work or close at hand jobs. Here is Canada, many a dog is earning it's living at feed lots - moving sheep & cattle through chutes and in/out of pens. They sometimes have to take a lot of fast quick commands that test the mettle of a fully trained up Open dog let alone a Nursery aged youngster. It isn't thrilling like a great big Open course but it is real work that farmers/ranchers have a need for a good dog. I compete in the odd arena trial when there is nothing else happening & because they are fun. I would also like to think that my dogs can do well at both. Although I would take little pride in winning an arena trial compared to a field trial.

I train in a very small field that is not much bigger than a lot of arena courses. There are panels set up and a pen so now & again, I run a 'pretend course'. I can see what a difference in my dogs' attitude when I am trying to make panels in such a small space. They feel way more pressure than my normal training sessions. I try to get out to a big field as often as I can because I know that I can't expect my dogs to do a 200 or 350 yd. outrun/drive if they never have to work that far away or find sheep at that distance. It is the biggest problem that is holding my two young Pro/Nov dogs back...that and the fact that I don't own sheep and that they are saddled with my sorry ass handling/training. ;-)

Great discussion, thanks for your input.

cheers Lani

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Why would the word "judged" be in the rule at all if the word was not meant to distinguish between points and time trials and judged trials? That is the usual distinction made between how winners are determined at stockdog trials in this country.

 

I suspect that some time and points trials may be sanctioned because they always have been and are grandfathered in unofficially, leaving the option of enforcement open.

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I suspect that some time and points trials may be sanctioned because they always have been and are grandfathered in unofficially, leaving the option of enforcement open.

 

 

I don't believe that there is any grandfathering, I have had new trials that were point/time arena sheep trials sanctioned as recently as last year both Open and Nursery.

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Why would the word "judged" be in the rule at all if the word was not meant to distinguish between points and time trials and judged trials? That is the usual distinction made between how winners are determined at stockdog trials in this country.

 

Good point Penny. Time/point trials do have a judge who determines if any & how many stock pass through each obstacle and to call grips. Therefore they are 'judged' in that respect. But why does the rule specify 'judged'?

cheers Lani

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Does the top 20% of open in these new time and points sheep trials count toward nursery?

 

As far as I know they would count for a nursery qualification, and I was told they do by other open handlers. Besides, I don't see anything that would prevent a handler that placed in the top 20% in Open with a Nursery dog contacting Francis and getting the placing counted, unless she asks if the trial was p/t when they e-mail or call. I'm quite certain they count on the cattledog side.

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SECTION 31: USBCHA NURSERY RULES

 

E) A Nursery dog must place two (2) times in the top twenty percent (20%) (rounded to the nearest whole number) of dogs competing in any Nursery Class of five (5) dogs or more, sanctioned by the USBCHA, to qualified to compete in the Nursery Championship Finals. A Nursery dog that places in the top 20% of a full National style judged Open class counts as a qualifying placing.

F) The nursery dogs must run a full National style course, without the shedding work, in order to be a qualifying class.

Are timed/points trials considered a "full National style course"?

 

 

 

 

I think we have just one more example of where the rules are not clear, are inconsistent, or are not applied as written.

 

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Are timed/points trials considered a "full National style course"?

 

 

Always been told yes, so long as there is a outrun/lift or gather and drive legs. The fetch is sometimes in question, seen trials where the dog lifts and then cross drives them before the stock comes to the handler, but that would also be in line with a double lift, which could be considered as two cross drives then a fetch from the center of the field.

 

 

That was why I pointed out the course description that was approved by the USBCHA BOD, even it would allow for arena trials, so long as they are set up in a triangle format with drive legs.

 

I don't see anything that clearly excludes arena or point/time trials from being counted as Finals qualifiers. IMO, it is left up to the individual handler to determine if their dog can do the work before taking up the National Finals adventure

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A few years back we held a point time sheep dog trial in an open field, the outrun was 250 yards, there were fetch panels, drive panels and a pen. Also a creek that you had to cross twice. The only difference between it and trials that we go to that are judged is that the handlers worked extra hard to get the sheep back on line so that they could make the panels. The handlers/dogs with sloppy work either lost points or took longer, the cream rose to the top, smooth controlled work with straight lines won the day.

 

That trial was in early June, later that month there was a judged trial on a little smaller field, the same handlers were at the top of the results. There were actually more wrecks in the judged trial then there were in the point/time trial, to a certain degree the requirement of having to get the sheep through the panels slowed handlers down and they kept a tighter grip on their dogs.

 

eta: I just remembered another thing that made the P/T trial more difficult, the sheep were set from one side of the field exhausted on the other, the exhaust had no gate and was unmanned, it was an alley entrance at the corner of the field leading back to the set out pen areas. Lose your sheep and they get to the exauhst alley your done. And the sheep knew where the exhaust alley was.

 

The quality of work still falls on the shoulders of the dog handlers, not the format in which the dogs are placed.

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I don't see anything that clearly excludes arena or point/time trials from being counted as Finals qualifiers.

That is the issue with the rules, they are not clear.

 

For example: If a rule is not within "Section 5: Open & Nursery Finals" or clearly states it only applies to the Finals does that mean the rule applies to all sanctioned trials, or do rules only apply to the Finals unless clearly stating the rule applies to all sanction trials?

 

"Section 14: Entries" and "Section 15: Runner Order" are not part of "Section 5: Open & Nursery Finals"; neither clearly state these rules apply only to the Finals or to all sanctioned trials. Does this mean all trials must charge $150 for nursery, $200 for open, follow the running order drawing instructions, and assign dog names to every draw or do these rules only apply to the Finals? Or perhaps we can pick and choose how to interpret and apply the rules, this one only applies to the Finals and that one applies to all sanctioned trials.

 

My interpretation of National style course is judged like the Finals regardless of the size of the course or the having all the elements of the Finals (the Maltese cross or chute, occasionally part of open courses, are not part of the Finals). Without the rules clearly stating we are only left with people's interpretation of the rules (yours, mine, and those listing qualifying points).

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The rule is clear with regard open placement counting as a nursery qualifier; apparently we just don't enforce the rule. There's nothing wrong with that. If lack of enforcement becomes a problem with too many ill prepared young dogs qualifying only in open time and points arena trials and then being entered in the Nursery Finals, then enforcement remains an option. Not enforcing the rule is less divisive, which is a good thing.

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