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Why do "ABC" owners say this?


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If you dont know what ABC stands for its means "Anything but Border Collies" at least that is what i am told. Or you know any breed that isnt born knowing agility. (Rolling my eyes)

 

But was reading some article and short stories about other people accomplishments with other breeds in agility and the one theme that keeps getting mention is well we love our breed. And realize i am probably looking at it wrong but i have heard other comments that drive me crazy that insinuate that you only get border collies as a way to be competitive in agility. Why do people think that border collie owners arent the same. That they cant love their breed and also do agility?

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I suppose it's possible that people say it because there's a kernel of truth in it? I have certainly heard people say that they wanted to be competitive in agility, so they got a border collie. At some point, if enough people have done that, then the belief that all border collie owners did that just sort of sticks.

 

In other words, enough people have said that they got border collies specifically for agility that now most people just assume that if you're running a border collie you *must* have gotten the dog specifically for agility. They don't stop to think that just like them, you might simply have a border collie because you like the breed.

 

J.

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Well, to be fair, some of the more obscure breeds out there doing agility are a LOT of work. If you love agility and keep plugging away with some of them, it's because you LOVE that breed.

 

Let's just take hounds for example. The majority of hounds are exceptionally difficult to train/trial because it goes against everything they were bred to do. There is no doubt that the average hound owner would have a much "easier" time if they chose to do agility with a breed more suited for working *with* humans vs. independently and following their nose. But because they happen to love living with that breed AND they enjoy doing agility, they keep plugging away.

 

This is not to say that owners of border collies don't have their own struggles, but people who own off breeds are often blind to this and see BC as "easy" dogs to train.

 

I run an off breed -- It doesn't get more off than an Alaskan Klee Kai. Kaiser is a quirky little Northern breed and has all of the personality quirks and training difficulties that come with it. It is only due to my stubborn nature that he turned into the nice agility dog that he is today -- I couldn't even keep him in the ring the first year and I kept plugging away. Note that my next dog wasn't a Klee Kai, though. ;) I may one day, but to me agility was more important than the breed. For some people it's the other way around.

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I get that line of thinking to an extent but to me if you have a breed that does poorly in agility(*physical and or mentally) and keep plugging away (*for lack of better terms) in agility instead of doing something better suited for the breed then how is that "loving" your breed?

It like me competing in a sled dog race and saying it obvious how much i love my breed because i keep competing in racing. Specially since my breed isnt best suited for it. So that mean i love my dog even more! Right?

(Eta: i said sled dog racing since i was trying to think of another genetic sport that any breed can do but only a few breeds or mixes actually excel.) Also added things in at the asterisk

Im sorry i am ranting.

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I get that line of thinking to an extent but to me if you have a breed that does poorly in agility and keep plugging away at agility instead of doing something better suited for the breed then how is that "loving" your breed?

It like me competing in a sled dog race and saying it obvious how much i love my breed because i keep competing in racing. Specially since my breed isnt best suited for it. So that mean i love my dog even more! Right?

 

Im sorry i am ranting.

 

I think that depends on what you mean by "doing poorly." Its really true that if you want to be a representative on the world team or win the Nationals of any given organizations, you are not going to do it unless you have a really fast breed (BC, Sheltie, Pyr Shep, etc). There's undoubtedly many people who get a Border Collie for that reason. I fail to see why thats a bad thing...so long as the dog in question is happy and well cared for. I find people who look down their noses at someone who gets a faster dog because they want to be competitive just as annoying as those with the faster dogs who are dismissive of someone with a slower or non traditional breed.

 

As far as working with a dog that "does poorly," I guess that depends on what your definition of "doing poorly" is. If it means you have to change the way you train and accept fewer Qs thats no big deal, so long as everyone is happy and healthy.

 

I own a Border Collie because I like them as pets, but there's truth to the idea I prefer to work with a dog who seems to enjoy working with me. I didn't get him to be a big agility winner, agility is a very small part of our lives. But the fact that Border Collies enjoy playing stupid human games more than your average Beagle or husky was a part of my decision.

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I see i added it in too late. By poorly i meant the dog physically wasnt built for agility or like the breeds that mentally seem like they would perfer not to do it. The huskies that instead of running the course take off running outside the ring, the breeds that look at the course and people and just decide they would rather not compete today.

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I get that line of thinking to an extent but to me if you have a breed that does poorly in agility(*physical and or mentally) and keep plugging away (*for lack of better terms) in agility instead of doing something better suited for the breed then how is that "loving" your breed?

Um, perhaps because agility was created as a sport people could do with their *dogs*, whatever breed those dogs were? Yes, border collies excel at the sport, but the sport wasn't designed for them exclusively (and at least in AKC agility, border collies weren't even an allowed breed at the start were they, before the AKC recognized the breed?), and why should people who have breeds that might have done pretty well (or still do well in the classes in which border collies don't compete) NOT then play at the sport of agility with their dogs just because a breed came along that can apparently do it better? Wasn't the whole point of agility all about having fun and competing with the dog you had--at least in the beginning, before the competition and winning became most important?

 

I would venture a guess that this sort of attitude (the why would they bother to do it with a breed unsuited for it <--the implication being that only breeds that excel all the time, like border collies, are suited) is the reason that you hear the "anything but border collies" chant.

 

Sled dog racing, hunting dog field trials or earth trials, and USBCHA type stockdog trials, for example, were developed for certain breeds or types of dogs specifically. The same isn't true for agility (or flyball, for that matter) as far as I know. And that distinction is a pretty big one, IMO.

 

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but the first dog I nearly adopted as my own (not a family dog) was a Bouvier. If I had adopted that dog instead of the border collie x austrialian shepherd I ended up with I could imagine myself being a Bouvier fan, and if I did dog sports and was a Bouvier fan, then I suppose that's what I'd be running. Likewise, if I wanted to do stockwork with my breed, I probably would have ended up active in AHBA or ASCA trialing. My point being that some folks out there really do want to do some or all the things available to them to do with their breed of choice. I had a dear friend who ran pugs in agility and did well with them, despite the smashed in faces. I *loved* his pugs! It's not a breed I would choose to own, but I can see how he and his wife loved them, and since they also enjoyed the sport of agility, why not do it with the breed of dog they owned and loved, well suited or not (physically)?

 

J.

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It's a stereotype, plain and simple. And, like all stereotypes, it does not take into account that there are a lot of people who appear to fit the stereotype on the surface, but, in fact, do not.

 

Yes, there are people who prefer other breeds, but have chosen a Border Collie (or Sheltie) because they want to be competitive in Agility.

 

However, there are also those of us who love Border Collies and would choose to have them in our lives even if sports did not exist.

 

Somehow we all end up getting painted as the former.

 

I stopped paying attention to the abc folks ages ago. It used to bother me but it doesn't now. The type of dog I choose to live with, train with, and compete with, and my reasons for doing so is my business. If they seriously feel that they can't handle competing in division with Border Collies, go for it, as long as equal opportunity is provided for the Border Collie divisions. I wouldn't object to playing in divisions with just other Border Collies (not because I dislike dogs of other breeds or prefer not to compete against them). Although where do you put the Border Collie mixes, or dogs of unknown origin who might be Border Collies? But that's a problem that the abc folks would have to work out.

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My advise is to stop letting silly things like this bother you, and really, to stop caring what people might think of you and your dog. Agility people can drive you crazy if you let them. So don't. Do what you do for yourself, not for someone else. As Dr. Seuss says...

 

“Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.”

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There's a kernel of truth to it. The last trial I was at I was behind a lady that fit that stereotype perfectly. I've honestly known quite a few people in my short time in agility that DID just get their dogs because they do well in the sport. And a couple of them really dont' seem to be suited for the breed. Or they end up with an agility dud.

 

It is very annoying for someone like me who is getting their first BC as their next dog. The automatic assumption is I am getting a BC because I do agility, but I've liked the breed a lot longer than I've done agility and was planning one before. (It will be about 7 years of waiting by the time I actually get one, so definitely not an impulse buy) I've already been asked why I'm replacing my other breeds with border collies, which is ridiculous. I've had shelties longer than anything else and will have them again, and you will never find me without a papillon or five at all times.

 

Then again all three of 'my breeds' tend to be good agility breeds- papillons, shelties, and border collies. I just enjoy a fast, handler responsive kind of dog as a pet.

 

I think people also get a little defensive. I'm saying this as a non BC person, and will probably get some flack for this posting this on a BC board, but I've had some of the worst experiences with BC people in real life as them not being remotely friendly towards me and my dog. All of the disparaging comments we've gotten at agility have been from herding breed and in particular BC people. There is often an attitude that if it's not a BC, or at the least a herding breed then it's not worth it and why bother. Why show up with that lesser dog? I'd rather people think of their dogs as PETS first and decide what they like to live with versus buying a dog just to play a game well (hopefully). Why not run a husky? I've seen plenty of huskies out there that look like they're having a blast.

 

It's been a lot better since I changed clubs though, lol. I'm pretty sure most the issues were just the individuals but I can see why non border collie people get annoyed by some of them.

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Listen to your mom. Wear clean underwaer. Look both way before you cross the road. eat your vegatables

 

Ignore the petty people.

 

By not ignoring them, they *sit* upon your shoulder, whisper *crap* in your ear and cause your turmoil.

 

Life is to short to worry about what others have to save, especially the gossipy people and jealous fools.

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I dont think i was clear and rereading my post and some replies made me realized i need to clarified.

 

I love watching and talking with most agility people. I find it fascinating learning more about some of the most amazing breeds(i think the portuguese water dog will be deeply repected after talking with a competitor). Most of the competitors in my area are awesome and friendly.

 

What i am trying to say its the mindset of the people who are truely ABC value and view those of us with "easy" breeds as less then what they have experience. It the handler who complain about the border collie or a better built dog winning the class when they are competing with bull dogs, etc...

 

While border collies are awesome at agility there are other breeds right on their tails and gaining speed ,and some individual in other breeds who are equally amazing or better.

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If people are more concerned with the breed of dog other people are working with making it "easier" or making them "more competitive", then maybe they should be looking at their own reasons for doing agility with their chosen breed (or mutt). Shouldn't it be more about the journey than the destination? Shouldn't the bonding, the exercise, the fun, the growth together, and the socializing be more important than points or ribbons or whatever teams get in agility competitions? Shouldn't progress and personal satisfaction (for both handler and dog) trump any placing in an event? If not, then I think people are too focused on the wrong things.

 

Like Diane said, don't let those people sit on your shoulder and poop in your ear.

 

JMO.

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What i am trying to say its the mindset of the people who are truely ABC value and view those of us with "easy" breeds as less then what they have experience. It the handler who complain about the border collie or a better built dog winning the class when they are competing with bull dogs, etc...

 

I would say that those who are complaining are not actually aware that many of us with Border Collies have had to deal with our own challenges, and are unaware that Border Collies are not, in fact "point and shoot" Agility dogs, and that they have a "grass is greener" point of view.

 

While border collies are awesome at agility there are other breeds right on their tails and gaining speed ,and some individual in other breeds who are equally amazing or better.

 

That's another objection I have to abc. When another breed comes to the fore as the breed most suited to Agility outside of abc, are they going to be broken off, too? Are there going to be abs (sheltie) classes? Or aba (aussie) classes?

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Well, ultimately, people like to succeed (win). But people also tend to be stubborn, and there are those who really, truly love their breed and want to succeed at a sport/competition with the dog they love. Add to that the fact that the sport of agility was meant to be accessible to all dogs (hence the different jump heights, levels, etc.) and it's understandable that some people will feel frustrated when they feel they can't be competitive/win with the dog they have. Just as in the stockdog world, there will always be folks who look at border collies and either try to justify why their breed is better or denigrate the border collies because it makes them feel better about their own choices. But I don't think it's evil, and it's probably not even petty in the sense that they sit around trying to come up with unpleasant things to say about border collies. It's just that they're human and they'd like to win too, and they don't want to have to give up their favorite breed in order to be competitive. It's a line of reasoning that might even lead them to believe that most people get border collies so they *can* be competitive, whether that's true for any or most of the competitors running border collies. That's human nature, and you shouldn't take it personally. Honestly, you'd be better off not letting it bother you, but instead put yourself in their shoes and try to understand how it feels to have a breed (or individual dog) you love but that isn't going to be as competitive as some others. A little understanding on the border collie side of the coin could go a long way to making those types of comments less bothersome. JMO.

 

J.

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Like Diane said, don't let those people sit on your shoulder and poop in your ear.

 

JMO.

 

Thanks, Sue and Diane for my favorite quote this week, maybe this month. It's a great image to carry around and haul out when useful.

 

FWIW, I don't do agility with my dogs. Took a few lessons with the departed dogs, just not my thing. Same thing with flyball. Agent Gibbs gets nosework classes, lots of going places with DH or myself, and daily little around the house type things. I'm teaching him right now to pick up my socks, so he can help with laundry like Samantha used to.

 

Some people always find a way to put others down and elevate themselves in their own eyes. Don't let them sit on your shoulder . . .

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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ABC people. Hmm, I learned something new. I don't know what's going on in your neck of the woods, but I haven't experienced the negative attitude that you and Laurelin have described. I have heard people (with other breeds) make statements to the fact that there are so many bc's in their class that they rarely ever place. But, I haven't heard anyone suggest that the folks with other breeds love their breed more than folks with bc's. But, it is true that some folks transitioned from other breeds to bc's because they fell in love with the sport and wanted a breed that would be competitive and highly trainable. But, that doesn't mean that they aren't fond of the breed because they had (or have) other breeds.

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That's another objection I have to abc. When another breed comes to the fore as the breed most suited to Agility outside of abc, are they going to be broken off, too? Are there going to be abs (sheltie) classes? Or aba (aussie) classes?

 

In places where they actually have ABC classes, the Kelpie seems to be the overwhelming dog of choice in the large dog classes. And yes, there have been jokes that soon they will have to make an "anything but Kelpie" class. :P

 

Maybe they should just break the divisions by what YPS each dog averages. Then my slow border collie would stand a chance. ;)

 

The only reason it's a big deal is because in Europe they used to require *wins* to advance to the next level. Other breeds couldn't beat the border collies, so they separated the BC into their own division to give the other dogs a chance to get their wins to move up. The Kennel Club has started a new program that allows people to move up based on points vs. wins, I guess, so it's not quite the issue that it used to be.

 

In the United States it's not required that you win ANYTHING to move up or get any big awards (you could argue the case of the Super Q's in Snooker for USDAA, but even "slow" dogs can get those) ---- So I really don't ever see ABC classes or divisions happening here.

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ABC people. Hmm, I learned something new. I don't know what's going on in your neck of the woods, but I haven't experienced the negative attitude that you and Laurelin have described. I have heard people (with other breeds) make statements to the fact that there are so many bc's in their class that they rarely ever place. But, I haven't heard anyone suggest that the folks with other breeds love their breed more than folks with bc's. But, it is true that some folks transitioned from other breeds to bc's because they fell in love with the sport and wanted a breed that would be competitive and highly trainable. But, that doesn't mean that they aren't fond of the breed because they had (or have) other breeds.

 

Ditto. I'd never even heard of "ABC" until I read it here.

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Jumping on the side of "there's a kernel of truth to it" - as a young handler, after my first dog washed out for health reasons, I wanted a border collie to do dog sports with. I wasn't really thinking that I wanted the "easiest" dog out there - I merely liked the way the border collies interacted with their handlers. I liked that the people who put time into training their border collies didn't have to constantly play mind games and pull rabbits out of their bum to keep their dog focused. Easier? You betcha. And for me, a young kid who was new to the sport, it seemed more fun to have a dog that naturally enjoyed working as a team.

 

I can't understand why there are "ABC" classes for relatively casual handlers. What's the point? What does having a border collie in the class have to do with anything?

 

I also don't understand why people say they get so much more out of running non-BC breeds in agility. Perhaps if I had earned every agility title out there, gone to championships, and been so involved in every facet of the sport that I was bored with just running agility with a "plain old BC" (or sheltie, or aussie, or any nimble herding breed) and wanted the extra challenge such as running an English Mastiff through advanced courses, then I'd see what the ABC people are getting at. Most of these people are like me and have barely titled their dogs, so why do they need to hop up on their high horse and say they're better handlers because they don't run with border collies? Most of these people's runs would be riddled with handler mistakes even if they ran with one of those "easy" border collies.

 

Cracks me up how many people lose sight of the fact that agility is a GAME.

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I wanted a dog when I was a kid, but Mom did NOT want a big dog so got me a Mini Poodle x Cocker mix (now called Cockapoos by the designer mutt people). She went blind at 9 months old from genetic cataracts and was dumb as a post. This was back when agility was in its infancy, but I was already trying to train my mutt to compete. I was there to have fun and enjoy dog training, not to win.

 

Because my first dog went blind, I asked Mom for another dog. Mom said if I wanted another dog I had no choice but a Border Collie. She had grown up visiting them at her aunt's place in Texas every summer. She thought they were the greatest breed ever. I had no idea what they even were and had to go to the library to find some books about them. (This was 1992, pre internet days!) I was skeptical, but when a kid is given a choice of no dog or a breed they haven't met, they take the dog!

 

I agree with Mom that Border Collies are the greatest breed and am forever grateful that she helped me discover them.

 

PS, even back in 1994 people thought I got a Border Collie just to do well in sports. The attitude has been around for a long time.

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Man, anyone who claims that running a border collie is easy needs to come try and handle Dexter AKA "DEMO(LITION)" some time. My wee whipjack is much easier and more pleasant to train and run!

 

I get annoyed with people who get border collies for the sport mostly because they then become self-appointed border collie experts and sometimes they make the foolish mistake of telling me about the breed. This drives me crazy. But whatever, to each their own. It's too bad they all go out and buy "sport bred" dogs though, that makes me sad. Not only do they get a border collie for the wrong reason, they support the wrong kind of border collie too.

 

I got the sport for the dog. I didn't drive / have a car back then, so when an agility school opened within walking distance, I thought it would be something fun for my dog to do and we could walk there. I tried some other sports too, but we like agility best. I have tried to be very competitive, but the way Dex is unravelling I now only want to get through a course without an innocent bystander being mowed down ;-)

 

I got border collies because I really liked my neighbours' dogs when I was a teenager - their border collies were awesome. I guess my reason for getting into the breed was no better than anyone else's. And god has punished me for this by giving me the WooTWoo.

 

RDM

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ABC people. Hmm, I learned something new. I don't know what's going on in your neck of the woods, but I haven't experienced the negative attitude that you and Laurelin have described. I have heard people (with other breeds) make statements to the fact that there are so many bc's in their class that they rarely ever place. But, I haven't heard anyone suggest that the folks with other breeds love their breed more than folks with bc's. But, it is true that some folks transitioned from other breeds to bc's because they fell in love with the sport and wanted a breed that would be competitive and highly trainable. But, that doesn't mean that they aren't fond of the breed because they had (or have) other breeds.

 

Yeah, like I said I think it was mostly the people at that individual club. The people at my new club are much better. What is funny though now is that the people at the first club were all talk and not much else. They weren't very competitive and were stuck in the stone age as far as agility training goes.

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I get annoyed with people who get border collies for the sport mostly because they then become self-appointed border collie experts and sometimes they make the foolish mistake of telling me about the breed. This drives me crazy. But whatever, to each their own.

 

This happens everywhere though...I run into people all the time who lecture me about how Border Collies make terrible pets and need continuous exercise and a job. I have had at least one Border Collie since 1991, and I get this all the time as if I didn;t know about my own chosen breed. My current dog has some fear issues and this makes it so much worse...every time I manage something like asking someone not to reach down to pet him or telling the tech I will restrain him I get lectured about how I just need to provide him with more exercize blah blah blah.

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