Lunamoth Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Hi all, I'm looking to get my second BC. My first is a rescue and while I love her to death, I am looking for a more confident, drivey, handler focused, and health tested pup out of working parents this time. I'm aiming to get the pup around December - February. While I intend to do agility, frisbee, and long distance trail running with this pup, this will also be my allergy alert service dog prospect. While I understand getting a young pup as an SD prospect is always a risk, it's one I'm willing to take. I've been tying to do my research, it's difficult to find a good breeder and to get one to respond. I've contacted Culleymont for example but I haven't received a response, over email or phone. I also can't seem to find any trials near me. I live in the Bay Area, CA, and don't see any events listed on the NorCal sheepdog association website. Does anyone have any tips on locating trials or getting responses from people about their dogs? Thanks so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borasaurus Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Can't help on finding a breeder, but the USBCHA has a trial schedule posted on their site. The finals are in Alturas this year, which is really cool. I wish I was close enough to go watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 There can be quite a few breeders who do not trial but use dogs on farms and ranches. I would do an internet search then start calling. I get quite a few calls from my web site for folks looking for a border collie, unfortunately this part of the country working farm dogs are not common. I do return all the emails and calls I get. Some of those folks I do not sell to, some I refer to others, a few I do put on a puppy list. I will not sell a dog to someone who I do not speak with and who can not tell me why they are looking for a bc and what they want out a dog. It surprises me how many people do not call when I give them my number. The majority of people looking for a pup want one Now and do not want to wait. If you are breeding for work and not pets usually you do not have several litters just waiting for homes. Do your research and ask a ton of questions, get references. Plenty good solid dogs out there to pick from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunamoth Posted August 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Thank you both for your answers. I'll make some more calls and write some more emails, and keep on searching. I'd love to attend the finals in Alturas! Maybe I'll volunteer, then I can camp out for free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunamoth Posted August 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 I've talked to a few people who may have pups roughly in the time frame I'm looking at. First of all would you get a pup from someone whose bitch has a great pedigree but has never been on sheep? But the dog she is being bred do does and also has a solid pedigree? I feel a bit unsure about a bitch being bred having never been on sheep. If anyone would be willing to lend me their opinions on a few dogs specifically in pedigrees and on a couple breeders please message me! I'd be very grateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 I'd want the dog to have done some work at least. Doesn't need to be a trial dog but I want to know that it's gutsy but thoughtful and useful on livestock. Also, people who regularly work the dogs are better at picking out what makes a good working dog. So the less experience the dog has, the more stock experience I'd want the breeder to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 I would want to see the parents work livestock if I was going to use the pup to work livestock, 100% no ifs or maybe or a great grandparent worked blah blah. Nope I want to see parents on stock. IF I was not using my dog for stock I would not be able to tell you how my working sheep would correlate to say fly ball or agility. Don't do either of those things. So what I want in a sheep dog - level headed, confident, quiet thinking dog might not make the best fly ball dog. From what I seen they are super high strung and not really thinking, a bit of adrenaline junkies maybe As far as checking out breeders I would want emails of folks that have had pups from them and vet reference. Some breeders know quite a bit about the dogs back in the line. Some older sheepdog folks that have been around border collies for a bit know specific dogs really well. I always talk to Jack Knox about individual dogs, being from Scotland he has seen many of the good ones work. Dogs that are used mostly at home or trialed infrequently there will be fewer people know them. They are not any better or worse dogs. Honestly I am partial to dogs putting in a full days work at home where they are behind the hill and in the trees and have to figure it out for themselves. I think if you allow people to talk you can get a sense of them and their dogs. Are they salesman and just wanting to sell one or are they interested in finding the right dog the right home and the right job? A fast indicator for me is are there multiple bitches being bred alot, how much color do the pups have and how many letters are behind their names... One of things isn't necessarily bad but all 3 sends warning signals to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 Have you checked out Redwood Empire Sheepdog Association? I can't copy/paste anything to the Boards, some quirk of their server, but if you do a search you'll find it. I think, but am not sure, it encompasses Marin, Sonoma and Mendocino counties, maybe Lake County as well. This is a group of pretty active folks, and there are several trials. I live in Sonoma County, if you're ever up this way, let me know. Ruth and Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 I think that you can tell A LOT about a dog by the way it works livestock no matter what you're going to train for. I was talking dogs with the person I got my Kipp from last week. Pretty much everything he wanted in a stock dog was what I wanted in a SAR dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I wouldn't want a pup out of a cross in which one parent had never seen sheep. I'd start to wonder right away why that breeding was happening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I agree sheep work does tell you about personality and characteristics of the dog. Usually I know that before going to sheep although some traits develop as the dog matures. Livestock work shows if the dog is more patient and thinks as opposed to a dog that reacts first and slows to think second. What I was saying way The Way he works sheep or the parents work does not necessarily correlate to how well he will do weaves, or the teeter totter, or if he will enjoy flyball. If you are not using the pup for livestock work the very most important aspect is the personality, disposition and health of the parents. If the pup will work stock then I would want to see the parents work. The outrun, flanks, pace... can be very genetic. But then you have to sort out is it "training" you are seeing or the way the dog is. That is an entirely different discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I also want to add some working bred puppies from fantastic working parents will not grow up to be great herding dogs or even cut it as a stock dog. Those are usually the dogs some breeders are more likely to let go to sport/non working homes or rehome later if the dog just can't cut it as a herding dog. It would worry me if one parent had never seen stock, as a good share of good working breeders only breed if they want a pup to replace one of their dogs or add to their own pack. You would want to have a pup from two dogs who were good stock dogs not just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 I think you're absolutely making the right choice to be looking for a good working-bred dog. When the weather cools in the fall, there will be a few trials near you. In October, there are trials in Paso Robles and Elk Grove. I know, "near" is relative! The drives to sheep dog trials tend to be long. In November, there is a trial up in Mendocino County that I particularly love, at the University of California's Hopland Research Center a bit south of Ukiah. It is a beautiful place and the sheep are wonderful. I would strongly recommend a weekend outing to this one, and what the heck, you could do vineyards and wine tastings too! The Hopland trial: http://hrec.ucanr.edu/?calitem=292081&g=61984 Here's the link to USBCHA-sanctioned trials: http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html Here's the link to the RESDA: http://www.resda.com/_/RESDA.html Meanwhile, there are several places on Facebook where people post litters and young dogs for sale. PM me and I'll send you some connections there. There are some postings for young nursery dogs for sale. There would be many advantages to such a young (i.e., 1-2 year old) dog. You would be getting a well-trained, well-mannered dog who is a known quantity. No puppy crap-shoot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunamoth Posted August 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Thanks everyone. This is such a process. This will be my first non-rescue pup. I'm struggling with deciding between litters from people whose names I've heard a lot and dogs I recognize versus pups from ranches and working farms. How does someone like me, who doesn't know a ton of names and pedigree details, decide on a litter? *Edit: ShoreDogs I tried to PM you and it says you cannot receive anymore new messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Whoops, sorry! I just cleared out a whole bunch of ancient messages. Plenty of room now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Check with Bill Berhow. He has a dog that was a service dog before he got it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I wrote this several years ago for people buying a border collie, not true for everyone but may help since you are new with breeders. http://buyingabcpuppy.blogspot.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Unfortunately these guidelines neglect to address one of the most important things to look for when evaluating border collie breeders, and that's making sure the parents of the puppies actually work, and that prospective buyers should see them work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm not sure how much it helps to see dogs work if you don't know what to look for and it's not what you want he dog for anyway. It wouldn't have informed my choice in any way. Trust is vital in any transaction. Does this person have a reputation for knowing his/her stuff? Do you get the impression that they are feeding you a bucket of bs? Are they trying to persuade you or just answering your questions? I would look for someone who has a reputation for knowing dogs inside and out, tell them what you want and be guided by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 I'm not sure how much it helps to see dogs work if you don't know what to look for and it's not what you want he dog for anyway. No, but it's critical in determining whether or not the pups are working bred or whether it's just lip service to working breeding. Sad to say I've known a breeding or 2 from well known trials folks where the dam had never worked sheep, or had washed out and they decided to breed her before they passed her on because the lines were good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Depends why a dog was what you term a washout. If the lines were good and proven then someone who knows what they are doing may well think it worth doing. Not as if 2 outstanding dogs are guaranteed to produce 100 percent outstanding pups. Anyone whose reputation depends on a quality product would be foolish deliberately to put that reputation at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 27, 2015 Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Um, as a working dog. We're having this conversation on the BC Boards, aren't we? It is the stated intention of the USBCC, who sponsors these Boards, to preserve the the border collie as a working stock dog, not as an all purpose dog, inn't? And it's generally accepted by at least most of us that this is to be achieved through breeding, as Mr. McCaig calls them, the goodun to gooduns, not mediocre to mediocre or even mediocre to a goodun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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