gcv-border Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 I was in a B&N recently and leafing through one of the dog mags. I came across a one page article that purported to list 13 of the most important facts about border collies. I must admit, the article was not that far off --- but one bullet point that surprised me was: Old Hemp was the 'father' of all working border collies, and every working border collie had Old Hemp in its lineage. True or False? Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted August 10, 2015 Report Share Posted August 10, 2015 Dear Doggers, Hemp was the first dog in the ISDS Studbook. According to Barbara Carpenter, until WW1 the ISDS was 100 Scottish Shepherds/farmers and Barbara isn't alone citing the Telfers'(Hemp's breeder) overwhelming influence. In The Blue Riband of the Heather she has a pedigree showing Hemp's inheritance in International winners until 1951 and there's no reason to think those winners didn't produce later International winners. Since sheepdoggers bred gooduns to gooduns rather than inbreeding to concentrate traits, Hemp's genetics are faint after so many generations and there were many other important dogs and bitches in ISDS early days. To use Politfacts catagories I'd rate: Old Hemp is the 'Father of all working Border Collies" as Mostly False and "Every Working Border Collie has Old Hemp in his Lineage" as True. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Hemp was the first dog in the ISDS Studbook. In essensce yes. Numerically, no.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 IIRC, Old Hemp's registration number was 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 I think a bitch named Maid or Old Maid was actually #1. But I'd say Hemp's stamp on the breed as we know it is undeniable, however diluted by generations since.I have traced back several branches of my dogs' family tree on the Border Collie Database (http://db.kennel.dk/bcdb/start.php) and all those that are mapped back that far go back to Old Hemp. He's kind of like Wiston Cap - a frequent flyer in the early family tree. ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted August 11, 2015 Report Share Posted August 11, 2015 Dear Historians, Thanks for the correction. In 1988, Geoff Billingham talked about watching Adam Telfer run and at my surprise, he said, "Donald, it has been many generations of dogs but only three of men." Geoff is gone now: the fourth generation. Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Yes, the dogs don't last so long do they? "5 years to train 'em, 5 years to work 'em, then they die..." ran my father's lament. According to fable, Mr.Telfer started with pretty unpromising material to get Hemp: That most infuriating of creatures, a bitch who upon seeing her own gaze reflected in the eyes of a sheep, would like a Gorgon turn to stone... lined by a good humoured dog, so laid back he could possibly be judged as lazy... A good job forums like this didn't exist back then, as he surely would have found himself castigated for crimes against the correct kind of dog breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 A good job forums like this didn't exist back then, as he surely would have found himself castigated for crimes against the correct kind of dog breeding. Huh? Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 I was imagining the response to someone posting on here: "I have these two dogs, for differing reasons neither are much use. Do you think I should put them together and see what pops out..?" (Not that I'm suggesting Adam Telfer or his equivalent would have felt the need to canvass opinion on the lining of his dogs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 I wonder how much of the Telfer quote is absolute truth and how much is an attempt at humor? For example, I have a very clappy bitch (so the quote could certainly apply to her), but she can move ANYTHING. Not the best for trialing, but certainly useful at home with recalcitrant stock. (And there are many other dogs behind her who are great workers, great trial dogs, and not so clappy, so her sum total of what she brings to a cross isn't just herself.) And while I understand your attempt to make a poke at the folks on this board, I'd be willing to bet if the modern day equivalent of a Telfer posted such a thing here, most folks would recognize the knowledge in the man and simply assume that he knows what he's doing, unlike the average "breeder" posting to a forum such as this one. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Breeding is more than a 'crap shoot' as I've often heard said. But sometimes one has to take a chance and it may go against the grain of others, but if the end result is a very good worker and healthy (perhaps more of a concern today) then what is wrong with it. As for breeding 'gooduns' today we have more opportunity but I think much of the knowledge and 'intuition' of the old timers is lacking. I think by the old breeders doing the 'work' not primarily trials, it gave more opportunity to produce gooduns and to see their weaknesses and their strengths. But the old timers lacked the means to see around the world and ability to breed worldwide-things we have today. However all the ability to travel and all the opportunities still don't help if one cannot 'see' the work, cannot look through the training at the strengths or weaknesses and if one is not honest with oneself on the merit of the bitch (for bitch owners ARE the breeders) and breed for reasons other than producing a strong working dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 I wonder how much of the Telfer quote is absolute truth and how much is an attempt at humor? For example, I have a very clappy bitch (so the quote could certainly apply to her), but she can move ANYTHING. Not the best for trialing, but certainly useful at home with recalcitrant stock. (And there are many other dogs behind her who are great workers, great trial dogs, and not so clappy, so her sum total of what she brings to a cross isn't just herself.) And while I understand your attempt to make a poke at the folks on this board, I'd be willing to bet if the modern day equivalent of a Telfer posted such a thing here, most folks would recognize the knowledge in the man and simply assume that he knows what he's doing, unlike the average "breeder" posting to a forum such as this one. J. You're surely right that the legends around Adam Telfer will have grown. How he was able to breed a great dog from two near-to-useless dogs makes for a good story after all. I would as you hope that a modern day Telfer would be treated with respect on a forum such as this. Unfortunately, the way such a person would likely express themselves might antagonise a few of the more "pet" type posters on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Unfortunately, the way such a person would likely express themselves might antagonise a few of the more "pet" type posters on here. Huh? Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Unfortunately, the way such a person would likely express themselves might antagonise a few of the more "pet" type posters on here. Are you deliberately trying to provoke the "pet people"? I see no other reason for such a comment. Most pet people I know wouldn't bother to comment on breeding practices of a working stockdog breeder. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I understand what MIRK means. We're used to people calling a spade a b****y shovel. No pussyfooting around - bluntness is the name of the game. I wouldn't have limited the chance of being upset to "pet" people though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalahundur Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I think MIRK´s little joke is being taken waaay to serious. I thought it was just a funny remark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 Unfortunately, the way such a person would likely express themselves might antagonise a few of the more "pet" type posters on here. Huh? Donald McCaig Sorry, my own poor expression probably let me down there. I mean no insult to people who keep working dogs as pets, it was just a clumsy way to try and define the seperate worlds that sometimes seem to exist on here. (I'm not the kind of person who thinks a sheepdog doesn't make a good pet. Not everyone wants a lapdog as a companion after all, many folk like a driven animal with a bit of edge to it, and why not?). What I was trying to say was that, if by an equivalent of Adam Telfer we're talking about a farming man from the North of England, he'll be unlikely to pussy-foot around the sensitivities of those souls who've heavily bought into the ideas of someone like, say, Ian Dunbar. He'll probably refer to a dog as "it" and not be shy of giving "it" a swat with his cap should he become sufficiently displeased by the animal walking in front of him etc. And as much as his dogs loved that man, as much as they were champions,as much as they ran their blood to water for him, there would be people on here who believed that a degree in animal behaviour and a raw food diet guaranteed that their dogs were far happier, worked more willingly and loved them more... Smalahundur is right, I do find the disconnect kind of amusing. It exists though, so why not discuss it? Or laugh about it? The old sheepdog men (and women...) would definitely have a giggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I think I know what MIRK means. And I don't think it was meant to be disrespectful or to antagonize. At least, I didn't take it as such. But I do think he might ought to re-inventory the pet-owners here on the Boards. If you have a bell curve with the old, smack 'em when their bad, shoot 'em if they're no good, rancher on one end and the "never say "no!" to a dog, keep them squeaky-clean and buy them lots of toys pet owner on the other; the folks at either end of the bell would likely react to the Telfer comments differently. The problem is that nowadays, the bell curve looks different. It's flatter. Their are "crusty old ranch folk" that bring their dogs inside now. Lots of them. Stock people, at least the ones I encounter regularly on these Boards, have a good, solid, workmen's relationship with their collies, but there's quite a few that might also let the dog sleep on the sofa, play fetch or maybe even put a funny hat on them at Xmas. More people know more about dogs and what makes them tick. There are stockpersons all over the bell curve. Pet-owners too. I am squarely in the pet camp. But I don't want a wriggling idiot for a companion animal. I do not think of my dog as a "little person in a fur coat." Added to this, is the fact that the Boards don't have too many AKC types hanging about. Stockpersons here can appreciate a handsome dog's beauty as much as anyone. But the pet-owners who come here, stay here and post regularly here aren't apt to be way over on the "wuzza, wuzza, wuzza," I-want-a-blue-merle-with-4-white-feet-and-blue-eyes edge of the bell curve. Those folks, like the man I met yesterday at the vet's, tend to use words like "mean" and "Neanderthal" when speaking of stockpersons. And his beautiful Border Collie - a heavily-ticked, 4 year old white dog with erect ears and some black patches - was a febrile, whining, panting, mannerless, fool. While his owner continually yanked him into a sit and held forth on the craziness of the working-bred collie, my little 9 mo. old working-bred bitch sat quietly, regarding the both of them with some perplexity. The dog's flashy paint-job and hyper demeanor made me immediately think "sports-bred." But he could have been bred any which way - and just raised poorly. There don't seem to be too many like the man at the vets here on the Boards. And the ones who do come here tend to shape up or slope off. Especially if their twitty trumpetings put them cross-ways with some of us who do not suffer fools gladly. Yes, that would be me. Not especially proud of it, but my mama did a crappy job of installing an off-switch in me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 If MIRK is who I think, then it's "she" not "he". But maybe it's a different person entirely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 If MIRK is who I think, then it's "she" not "he". But maybe it's a different person entirely... Oops. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I could be a he, I could be a she. I could be a he-she. Or a she-he. The dogs don't mind. And if the people do... well, who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 20, 2015 Report Share Posted August 20, 2015 I suppose my viewpoint is that you seemed to be poking at "pet people" for some reason when I really don't think pet people, in general, would venture to question the breeding decisions of people who the majority (or at least the working dog folk) recognize as legitimate (for lack of a better word) stock people. And if they did, they would likely quickly be put to rights by other stock people. Yes, there are pet people on this board. But as Geonni pointed out, most of them are sensible folks, and the ones who aren't generally don't remain long. And FWIW, I didn't take the "pet people" comment to be directed at those of us who work our dogs and also let them in the house but toward the folks who have border collies for other reasons. I still don't think those latter folks would spend a lot of time or effort questioning the likes of Telfer or even one of us lesser knowns.... But maybe I just live in an alternate reality, and I do admit to spending less time here, so maybe I'm missing all the pet people castigating the stockdog breeders (I see enough of THAT on Facebook. ) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 Hmm, there *was* someone on here quite a while back whose name was (I thought) Mirk but apparently the MIRK in this topic is someone other than the person I was thinking of. So, he, she, whatever, who cares, doesn't matter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 A swat with a cap MIRK? A very well known trialler shut my friend's dog's head in a gate for trying to go ahead of him. Result, the dog wouldn't go anywhere near him after that and he lost a customer. Sometimes those in the pet camp have a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 Juliepoudrier - You appear to be missing MIRK's point. So often on here we are told that only quality working dogs should be bred from, even only successful Open trailers at times. Yes, there are trade offs when balancing traits but Old Hemp seems to give the lie to that philosophy if what is said about his sire and dam is true. I'm a pet owner who knows the sort of working folk s/he describes. However, maybe those who are making money from pet hobbyists are having to temper their natural forthrightness with customers who may be somewhat thinner skinned than they are used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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