MIRK Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 A swat with a cap MIRK? A very well known trialler shut my friend's dog's head in a gate for trying to go ahead of him. Result, the dog wouldn't go anywhere near him after that and he lost a customer. Sometimes those in the pet camp have a point. Well, I wouldn't compare being hit with a peaked cap to being whacked by a gate. Also II wouldn't defend the trialler who hurt your friend's dog. I suspect he/she had been ignored by the dog a few times and decided to shock it out of it's non-compliance. Or maybe the trialler is a brute. The shock therapy training method can always backfire, in this case the dog wouldn't go near the trainer. Alternatively, your friend could have ended up with a dog that wouldn't go through gates. Neither would be very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 I'll admit to being surprised as it was someone who was on my list of possible but not now so I suppose he might have lost row customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 Dear Doggers, Ms. Mum wrote: "A very well known trialler shut my friend's dog's head in a gate for trying to go ahead of him. Result, the dog wouldn't go anywhere near him after that and he lost a customer." Did you see this? Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 21, 2015 Report Share Posted August 21, 2015 I think you're missing MY point. Telfer was obviously (to me) making a joke about his own dogs. I doubt they were complete biscuit eaters, and as an experienced stock- and dogman, he no doubt saw qualities he liked well enough to take a chance breeding from. Heck, he may even have known that the bitch came from a line of good producers who may themselves not have been the best work/trial dogs. But of course all we have is the little snippet MIRK provided and none of us knows what Telfer was thinking when making that cross. I just find it provocative to give such a snippet and then immediately make a snide comment about pet people objecting. I, for one, simply assumed that Telfer saw or knew something that told him the cross would likely be a good one. I've had a well-known Irish handler who was judging here in the US tell me he liked my dog a great deal and was surprised I had neutered him. I told him he had littermates with epilepsy. The gentleman's reply? "I would have taken the chance." Different strokes. That's how I see the Telfer comment. I just don't understand the posting of such a comment and then the need to poke at people who probably aren't even reading this thread (though I guess that begs the question why object because those folks aren't reading this thread). I don't think any stockperson or stockdog person would read that quote and think "Oh my god, he just bred a pair of sh!tty dogs," because I doubt they were truly sh!tty dogs. That was my point. J. Juliepoudrier - You appear to be missing MIRK's point. So often on here we are told that only quality working dogs should be bred from, even only successful Open trailers at times. Yes, there are trade offs when balancing traits but Old Hemp seems to give the lie to that philosophy if what is said about his sire and dam is true. I'm a pet owner who knows the sort of working folk s/he describes. However, maybe those who are making money from pet hobbyists are having to temper their natural forthrightness with customers who may be somewhat thinner skinned than they are used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 22, 2015 Report Share Posted August 22, 2015 I think you're missing MY point. Telfer was obviously (to me) making a joke about his own dogs. I doubt they were complete biscuit eaters, and as an experienced stock- and dogman, he no doubt saw qualities he liked well enough to take a chance breeding from. Heck, he may even have known that the bitch came from a line of good producers who may themselves not have been the best work/trial dogs. But of course all we have is the little snippet MIRK provided and none of us knows what Telfer was thinking when making that cross. I just find it provocative to give such a snippet and then immediately make a snide comment about pet people objecting. I, for one, simply assumed that Telfer saw or knew something that told him the cross would likely be a good one. I've had a well-known Irish handler who was judging here in the US tell me he liked my dog a great deal and was surprised I had neutered him. I told him he had littermates with epilepsy. The gentleman's reply? "I would have taken the chance." Different strokes. That's how I see the Telfer comment. I just don't understand the posting of such a comment and then the need to poke at people who probably aren't even reading this thread (though I guess that begs the question why object because those folks aren't reading this thread). I don't think any stockperson or stockdog person would read that quote and think "Oh my god, he just bred a pair of sh!tty dogs," because I doubt they were truly sh!tty dogs. That was my point. J. I think we're at cross-purposes... That wasn't (as far as I know...) a quote from Adam Teller, it's the story that has been passed down through the years about the creation of Old Hemp. And as I said before, maybe that tale has grown more interesting by being re-told, as tales often do. That doesn't alter my basic point though... If there is an orthodox, tested (and peer approved) way of doing something, then it won't be too difficult to repeat over and over and produce consistent results. If however you're inquisitive and brave and decide go against accepted opinion, to experiment... well, maybe you'll fall flat on your face. Or maybe, just maybe, something different will happen, the thing that happened for Adam Telfer with Hemp. He broke the mould. The "pet people" remark was nothing to do with breeding. It was in response to the idea that someone like Telfer would post on these boards. Having lived amongst Northern English sheepdog men my whole life. I was just pointing out that a few folks might find themselves a little upset, and possibly downright offended by his lack of sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 No I didn't Mr McCaig but I trust the person who told me. A lot of people would be very short of things to post if the restricted themselves to things they had witnessed personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 23, 2015 Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 Okay, so it's a tale that may or may not be true and may or may not be exaggerated, and most likely was. That being the case, I'm not sure why it was presented as an example of taking a chance on breeding and having a great result. Unless we know those two dogs were truly pieces of sh!t in the opinion of their breeder, then to me it really doesn't illustrate or prove anything. I'm just going to leave my opinion at that. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I've been poking around the internet, reading about Old Hemp, and there seems to be a great variation of notions about this dog. A couple of sites stated that he never trialed, others said he trialed and "never lost." As for his parents' ability, I found this, from a questionable source - obviously a color breeder - who did not reference their source material. "This dog (born in 1893) served as the model for the Border Collie exterior. His big influence on the breed was caused by his sensational appearance at trials. Since he started trials at the age of one, he never lost one. Old Hemp had a formidable ability to read sheep, and finished every course apparently without any difficulty. The reticent Scots apparently described him as 'bluidy marvellous'. Actually, it was quite surprising that Old Hemp was this talented. His father—Roy—was a nice dog, but did not posses special talent for herding sheep. His mother—Meg—on the contrary was such an intense worker that she hypnotised herself instead of the sheep. Thus Old Hemp was a typical example of a dog inheriting all the good characteristics of its parents without being burdened by their bad habits. During the eight years of his life, Old Hemp was a very popular stud dog, supposedly he fathered more than 200 dogs and an unknown number of bitches. A scary high number of offspring, and thus most current Border Collies are somehow descendants of Old Hemp. A factor adding to the success of Old Hemp as stud dog is the fact he passed on his characteristics to his offspring very well. Many of them became successful trial dogs." http://www.bordercollies.nl/eborstam.shtml Old Hemp has a Wikipedia page which states that "it was not known if he ever trialed." Well, no one with any sense expects Wikipedia to be accurate... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hemp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIRK Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Okay, so it's a tale that may or may not be true and may or may not be exaggerated, and most likely was. That being the case, I'm not sure why it was presented as an example of taking a chance on breeding and having a great result. Unless we know those two dogs were truly pieces of sh!t in the opinion of their breeder, then to me it really doesn't illustrate or prove anything. I'm just going to leave my opinion at that. J. Well of course that's your prerogative. Collective memory and oral history will always be open to question Unfortunately, in Hemp's case it's the closest we'll ever get to knowing much about one of the most important dogs in the history of the breed . If you ask me, the crucial factor in that dog becoming a corner stone in the sheepdog world wasn't it's lineage. No, the crucial thing is that it was born into the hands of a man who could recognise and release it's potential. Who knows how many unnoticed game-changers have been out there over the years, their talents never unlocked..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Dear Doggers, Ms. Mum wrote: "A very well known trialler shut my friend's dog's head in a gate for trying to go ahead of him. Result, the dog wouldn't go anywhere near him after that and he lost a customer." When I asked if Ms. Mum had seen this, she replied: No I didn't Mr McCaig but I trust the person who told me. A lot of people would be very short of things to post if the restricted themselves to things they had witnessed personally." Well, er. What we know is man closed gate on dog who was trying to go out ahead of him. Not an uncommon tactic since you really, really don't want an untrained dog loose in a field with sheep. Had to be a small gate since you can't swing a 12 footer closed fast enough to catch a dog. So; man bangs dog with gate. In my personal experience what the dog learns is that gates are dangerous and one should go through them only when told its safe to do so. Would a dog learn to fear a handler who banged a gate on him. Sure, if an amateur who was giving all sorts of crazy signals as he was gate banging but a well known trialer with excellent timing? I've never had a gate banged dog learn to fear me. What I have seen is pet dogs that have been allowed to run amuck by inexperienced often sentimental owners become terrified the first time they meet somebody who sees through them and speaks their language. They are no longer invisible. I'm one more step away from the circumstances Ms. Mum related and my interpretation is no less (maybe more) unlikely than hers. I do think we should be reluctant to derive a moral from dog human interactions we haven't witnessed. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Doesn't everybody clock "gate charging" dogs with a door or gate to stop them doing it? It usually only takes once, or twice from a headstrong dog. I've done it with dozens, and have yet to have one even connect me with the "dangerous" door/gate, let alone become afraid of me. I am always quick to sympathize with them for their treatment by the "evil door." Coupled with a "wait" command before the dog makes a dive, it teaches a dog that you are the all-knowing predictor of imminent mayhem. That "wait!" has saved many a curious dog/pup of mine from all kinds of harm, from getting mauled by a testy cat, to getting sprayed by a skunk. There is harm and trouble in the world, and I expect it's true of the farm as well as the urban environment. I think it's good that a dog knows this, and knows that I can predict it. It may be ironic that getting its head shut in a door could actually increase a dog's respect for you and it's trust that you know stuff they don't but it's nonetheless true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 You make a lot of assmptions Mr McCaig. I have worked in the legal field for over 40 years and do understand the need to question the validity of what is presented as evidence. This dog tolerated the instructor before the incident. After it he gave him a wide berth and didn't get over it. Speculation is all very well but that dog was seriously affected by what happened to him to the extent that he is now training more happily with someone else. And no, it wasn't a case of culture shock for a hapless pet owner thrown in at the deep end. They had been working with this person for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Makes me wonder if there wasn't something else going on there as well.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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