Before You Get Your Puppy

[Root Beer]

Although I wouldn't train a dog to do tricks with sheepdoggers' methods and wouldn't train a sheepdog with a clicker, the training goals which can only be efficiently attained by one specific method are rare.

 

For most pet owners, they all work - unless the trainer is a fool. In which case, none do.

 

So, would you say that unless the dog owner is a fool, you have no objection to pet or sport training being done through reinforcement based methods, if that is the preference of the owner of the dog?

[Journey]

If our dogs will "figure things out" no matter what, why insist on one way or the other? Why try to convince the so-called "purely positive" folks that the results that we see firsthand in our own dogs don't really exist?

 

I can't believe I am going to try to answer this. RB, what you espouse and claim (nothing personal) is "rare" in the real world. You have minimal exposure and experience, you have shown at the lowest levels and are moving up (freestyle), you have dogs with "issues" (again nothing personal) but "most" if not "many" people when they come looking for "help" they need it NOW, not a 5 page dissertation on how to get there and that it may take a few months (if not years). While many (of us) say there is nothing wrong with PP you come along and trash talk those of us that don't buy into the PP (and yes I say trash talk as you "always" say "your method works") as if ours/others don't. Your posts are wonderful for the most part but it makes me wonder if these boards don't need a new Topic Classification - Purely Positive Training Methods?

[jdarling]

it makes me wonder if these boards don't need a new Topic Classification - Purely Positive Training Methods...

 

Or not. Or perhaps it could use a board all to itself. Could you imagine these very boards going back to the way they used to be years ago where the main goal was stockwork, and most all-else was considered off-topic?

[Ooky]

... picking them up and bashing them against the corrall fence to teach them to stay off their stock, etc.

 

 

Wha???? Is that what you think so-called non-positive methods are? Do you not see why that would be offensive?

[Northof49]

So do you see this happening a lot? I mean, while all this is going on, what are you doing? Do you intervene? Do you videotape it? Do you report them to someone for dog abuse?

 

 

It's well known in the dog world that these tranining techniques are still being us. I have dealt and continue to deal with dogs that have been hung and nearly drowned so they won't dig holes anymore because that is these pet people have been told/shown to do. Squeezing the muzzle and/or shovinog the lips between the teeth and then squeezing the muzzle is well known and still being used by people using punishment based training systems to teach a dog not to mouth and/or grab at clothing, etc.

 

Barb wire around dumbbells, ducks, retrieiving dummies, as well as pins in tennsi balls is still a widely used method of teaching gundogs to have a soft mouth. as well as the "ear pinch" with a nail to teach a dog to retriveve. It's the norm, not the exception in a lot of places and the norm for clubs that teach retrieiver training. A very good friend of mine has a NSDTR and wants to train for hunting trials, but can't find a traiining club that doesn't use shock collars and compulsion training.

 

I have people phoning me for puppy classes that have got a Lab for hunting and take great offence that I will not allow them to use a shock collar on their puppies in my classes.

 

Do I see this all the time- no, but I know a lot of the people, trainsers and clubs that still use it, and deal with owners and dogs that have suffered the consqeuences, and the owners that have suffered the consequences.

 

Some people might be lucky enough to live in an area where this type of training is rare or non-existent. Maybe I have just been round long enough to know of certain people and clubs that still pursue this type of training.

 

I know of one training facility in Canada that you can take a 6 week course and know all there is to know about dogs, dog training,etc. and they teach Koehler. I have a guy in my area from there - know quite a feew people that have come out that facility as well as a lot of my friends, and it is all the same traiing methods - shock collars, prong collars, alpha rolls, correction training. I know of one girl that quit the course when one of the instructiors swung her dog around in the air off its feet on a choke chain.

[stockdogranch]

If our dogs will "figure things out" no matter what, why insist on one way or the other? Why try to convince the so-called "purely positive" folks that the results that we see firsthand in our own dogs don't really exist?

and we could just as easily turn this the other way 'round and ask...why must the "purely positive" folks try to convince those of us who use other methods (no, not all that nasty stuff Northof49 mentioned, as, frankly, I know of NOONE who does ANY of that) that our methods are all wrong and yours are the "only true and correct" way? I understand where you are coming from, Kristine, but sometimes it just seems that in defending your methods, you come off as a bit self-righteous, which can be a bit off-putting,

A

[Eileen Stein]

Then why does anyone on this board care that some of us prefer to train out dogs without the use of correction?

 

I don't think anybody does, do they? The only thing I have a problem with is when it is said or implied that such training is the only humane and effective method, and that methods employing correction are cruel, backward, unscientific and ineffective. When this is said or implied, especially to a newbie asking a question, I think it's reasonable and desirable for trainers who do use corrections to respond in an effort to give a more balanced picture.

 

So, would you say that unless the dog owner is a fool, you have no objection to pet or sport training being done through reinforcement based methods, if that is the preference of the owner of the dog?

 

Could he have said that more clearly?

[jdarling]

Northof49, how is any of that relevant to this discussion? We're talking Border Collies, not Labs and gun dogs. If the methods you're mentioning are used on Border Collies, be it owners, obedience trainers, stockdog trialers, agility folks, flyball people, etc., I think we can safely say (thankfully) that they would be the minority. This breed has its share of problems, but being swung around by a choke chain, or being dragged through a firepit or whatever, is not on the top of the list, I'm sure. If so, I'd like to see your statistics.

 

I don't want to tell you what you can and cannot post, because for sure Eileen would sling me around on a choke chain till I pass out, but can we please -- at least -- keep the conversation on our breed?

[Root Beer]

I can't believe I am going to try to answer this. RB, what you espouse and claim (nothing personal) is "rare" in the real world. You have minimal exposure and experience, you have shown at the lowest levels and are moving up (freestyle), you have dogs with "issues" (again nothing personal)

 

Nothing personal taken. You are entitled to your opinion. If you require advanced titles in a certain sport to consider someone's point of view valid, that's certainly an understandable preference.

 

That doesn't mean that what I have to say can't be of some value to someone. My experience, though not hugely extensive, has been a very intense learning process. I'm sorry if you find it personally offensive that I enjoy sharing what I've learned with others who might want to try some of the things that I have tried and have found to have worked.

 

but "most" if not "many" people when they come looking for "help" they need it NOW, not a 5 page dissertation on how to get there and that it may take a few months (if not years).

 

So, would you say that quality dog training (regardless of methodology) does not take time?

 

While many (of us) say there is nothing wrong with PP you come along and trash talk those of us that don't buy into the PP (and yes I say trash talk as you "always" say "your method works") as if ours/others don't.

 

I'm interested to know how is it trash talk to express another perspective and preference? How, exactly, does that imply that nothing else can work?

[Root Beer]

I don't think anybody does, do they? The only thing I have a problem with is when it is said or implied that such training is the only humane and effective method, and that methods employing correction are cruel, backward, unscientific and ineffective. When this is said or implied, especially to a newbie asking a question, I think it's reasonable and desirable for trainers who do use corrections to respond in an effort to give a more balanced picture.

 

If I say, "I have tried "insert whatever" and it worked perfectly well, and quickly", how does that imply that anything is cruel, backward, unscientific, and ineffective?"

 

I am really trying to understand this, but I simply don't see what you are seeing.

 

Could he have said that more clearly?

 

I'd definitely appreciate his affirmation that I have understood his perspective correctly.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. North of 49 wrote, in part:

"I know of one training facility in Canada that you can take a 6 week course and know all there is to know about dogs, dog training,etc. and they teach Koehler."

 

Perhaps unfortunately most introductory pet dog training classes of whatever method are six weeks. Introductory Koehler method is eleven weeks.

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

Or not. Or perhaps it could use a board all to itself. Could you imagine these very boards going back to the way they used to be years ago where the main goal was stockwork, and most all-else was considered off-topic?

 

Are Border Collie owners who do not do stockwork unwelcome to take active part in the discussions on this board?

 

It was my understanding that we are welcome in the lower sections of the board (General, Photo, etc.)

[Root Beer]

I don't think anybody does, do they?

 

100% perfectly, probably not. What human does anything perfectly? We all make mistakes here and there.

 

But by and large - yes. There are some of us who do train our dogs without the use of correction.

 

And it's not done to offend or pass some kind of judgment anyone who chooses to do things differently. It's a training choice - just like any other training choice. Made for the same reason that anyone makes a training choice.

[Northof49]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. North of 49 wrote, in part:

"I know of one training facility in Canada that you can take a 6 week course and know all there is to know about dogs, dog training,etc. and they teach Koehler."

 

Perhaps unfortunately most introductory pet dog training classes of whatever method are six weeks. Introductory Koehler method is eleven weeks.

 

Donald McCaig

 

You end up with a Master Trainer Certificate or whatever the wording is. Once you have finsihed the course you are supposedly qualified to train basic obedience classes, service dogs, search and resecue dogs, competitive obedience, protection dogs, kennel management and deal with any kind of behaviour problem in dogs. A lot of these people like to offer bootcamps where you send you dog for 2 - 4 weeks for a "tune up", and then they get sent back to you fixed of all their problems. One of the ones in my area quite often send them back with shock collars.

[Root Beer]

I understand where you are coming from, Kristine, but sometimes it just seems that in defending your methods, you come off as a bit self-righteous, which can be a bit off-putting,

A

 

I get that. That goes both ways, so I know exactly what you mean.

 

Honestly, I'd rather someone tell me that the way I've said something sounds self-righteous than to come back with "it can't work", or "that can't be done".

[Northof49]

Northof49, how is any of that relevant to this discussion? We're talking Border Collies, not Labs and gun dogs. If the methods you're mentioning are used on Border Collies, be it owners,

I was simply reply to Mr. McCaig's staement that dogs don't care what methods we use to train them

[Eileen Stein]

If I say, "I have tried "insert whatever" and it worked perfectly well, and quickly", how does that imply that anything is cruel, backward, unscientific, and ineffective?"

 

I am really trying to understand this, but I simply don't see what you are seeing.

 

The quote you provide here does not imply that anything is cruel, backward, unscientific and ineffective. However, that quote is not the only thing posted by advocates of "correction free" training, and you are not the only poster advocating "correction free" training (or positive reinforcement operant conditioning training, or whatever you want to term it). I said that I had a problem "when it is said or implied that such training is the only humane and effective method, and that methods employing correction are cruel, backward, unscientific and ineffective," not "when Root Beer says or implies . . ."

 

* * *

 

You wrote:

 

Then why does anyone on this board care that some of us prefer to train out dogs without the use of correction?

 

I replied:

 

I don't think anybody does, do they?

 

Then you responded:

 

100% perfectly, probably not. What human does anything perfectly? We all make mistakes here and there.

 

But by and large - yes. There are some of us who do train our dogs without the use of correction.

 

Apparently you misunderstood me. I was not saying that nobody trains without the use of corrections; I was saying that nobody cares that some of you prefer to train your dogs without the use of correction.

[Guest echoica]

My brother has 2 golden retrievers and 1 border collie (acquired the most recently). The trainer he used from day 1 with all 3 of these dogs employs the outrageous punitive methods outlined by Northof49. While the goldens don't seem to be too bent out of shape over it...I can tell you...the border collie sure is. She is a mess and they don't seem to understand why. The trainer in question breeds GSDs and trains them for search & rescue.

 

Is it too far out there to say that punitive methods seem to be the preferred method of training for 'working' dogs...border collie or otherwise? Because it sure seems that way.

[Eileen Stein]

Is it too far out there to say that punitive methods seem to be the preferred method of training for 'working' dogs...border collie or otherwise?

 

Define "punitive methods." Do you mean the methods North of 49 outlined? Or do you mean any word or action that results in reduction of an unwanted behavior?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Northof49 further describes a 6 week Canadian school which, she earlier asserted "and they teach Koehler,"

 

"You end up with a Master Trainer Certificate or whatever the wording is. Once you have finsihed the course you are supposedly qualified to train basic obedience classes, service dogs, search and resecue dogs, competitive obedience, protection dogs, kennel management and deal with any kind of behaviour problem in dogs."

 

I repeat: Introductory Koehler Training is 11 weeks. Subsequent Koehler training prepares one's dog to earn a CD title in AKC obedience. I cannot know what this Canadian school is nor whether Ms. Northof49 has accurately described it. If she has, that school is unrelated to the Koehler Method. Further, I know no training method that would qualify anyone as a "Master Trainer" capable of handling basic obedience classes after just six weeks.

 

I have visited Pat Miller's "positive" training classes. I've visited Tony Ancheta's training facility. Tony worked with Bill Koehler and continues the Koehler tradition. While I doubt that either admires the other's methods, I saw happy, well trained dogs at both facilities and both Pat and Tony have successfully trained and helped train tens of thousands of dogs.

 

I've no dog in this fight which is often strident, self-righteous and exquisitely ill informed.

 

With minor variants, Sheepdoggers' train similarly and sheepdog trainers often encourage their students to attend other trainers' clinics. While I know some cruel men I don't know any sheepdog training methods that are cruel per se. It depends on the trainer. What a trainer with perfect timing and vast experience can do is very different from what a newbie can or should attempt.

 

The dogs just want to be trained.

 

Donald McCaig

[Guest echoica]

Define "punitive methods." Do you mean the methods North of 49 outlined? Or do you mean any word or action that results in reduction of an unwanted behavior?

 

Not necessarily to the extreme as some of Northof49's summation...because honestly swinging around a dog by a choke chain or allowing it to chew on barb wire and such is animal cruelty if you ask me...and shouldn't be considered an animal 'training method'. Especially when there are more humane approaches to achieve the same end.

 

But I do mean predominantly positive punishment, yes.

 

I think there is a time and a place for correction to a certain level under the appropriate circumstances (the 'come to jesus' move comes to mind )...but I do prefer positive reinforcement/negative punishment style of training.

[Guest echoica]

What a trainer with perfect timing and vast experience can do is very different from what a newbie can or should attempt.

 

I like that statement...so true!

[Maralynn]

Not necessarily to the extreme as some of Northof49's summation...because honestly swinging around a dog by a choke chain or allowing it to chew on barb wire and such is animal cruelty if you ask me...and shouldn't be considered an animal 'training method'. Especially when there are more humane approaches to achieve the same end.

 

But I do mean predominantly positive punishment, yes.

 

I think there is a time and a place for correction to a certain level under the appropriate circumstances (the 'come to jesus' move comes to mind )...but I do prefer positive reinforcement/negative punishment style of training.

 

North of 49 is showing an extreme. Those are not training methods but abuse, but just because e collars and prongs can and are misused, it doesn't mean that there is no place for them in dog training or that only abusive people use them.

 

There are many trainer who do utilize prong and e-collars in their training, but train new behaviors with positive methods (marker or clicker training) and don't correct a dog until they are sure the dog understands the command. What I come away with from many of these conversations is an all or nothing attitude from people who choose not to use corrections and the idea that if you use anything besides a clicker (I know, that is probably a bit extreme) you abuse your dogs. When that is not the case at all.

[Ooky]

Is it too far out there to say that punitive methods seem to be the preferred method of training for 'working' dogs...border collie or otherwise? Because it sure seems that way.

 

I have worked with 5 different stockdog trainers. Some are more talented than others, and some have used more positive punishment methods than the others. I've also solicited "e-advice" through PMs from other trainers on this board. I have NEVER seen or heard of anything like this:

 

... picking them up and bashing them against the corrall fence to teach them to stay off their stock, etc.

 

Furthermore, every single trainer I've been to would not only speak out against a dog treated in such a way, they would not consider something like this to be at all effective to "teach them to stay off their stock". Even the most "punitive" trainer I know teaches a dog to stay off its stock with body pressure, taking away the sheep, and verbal corrections. 2 of these would be considered "positive punishment", I guess, although walking at your dog -- not menacing the dog, not yelling at it, mind you - just walking in it's direction -- at the right time is much. much, much milder than what Nof49 has outlined here. Verbal corrections can run the gamut from mild to stern, but are not harmful.

 

EVERY trainer I've been to, without exception, praises Odin and other dogs when they've done right.

 

EVERY trainer has noticed when Odin or other beginner dogs have had a bit too much stress and may be in danger of "turning off" - and met this with encouragement and support for the dog. One trainer I went to knew that Odin was at the right stage, i.e. not so green anymore, that when he began to "turn off", what he really needed right then was being made to work through it (through a pressure-relase and "positive punishment approach") - and guess what? He has not turned off since! While at earlier times he needed encouragement, THAT time he needed someone to have expectations of his work and to not allow him to turn off, and the trainer read dogs well enough to know it.

 

EVERY trainer has fully recognized when Odin was right, often before I myself did, and praised him accordingly (or told me to over PMs).

 

I don't know what you mean by punitive, but I've seen very little I would call that in my experience with working dog trainers, and 99% of the time it is a purely positive experience for Odin on every level I can think of - even when he gets a little handler pressure.

[Eileen Stein]

Is it too far out there to say that punitive methods seem to be the preferred method of training for 'working' dogs...border collie or otherwise? Because it sure seems that way.

 

But I do mean predominantly positive punishment, yes.

 

You know, I just can't bring myself to use the terminology of the operant conditioning quadrant anymore, though in the past I've tried. I think it's confusing and inadequate and just not useful. For example, if you bash a dog against a corral fence to teach her to stay off her stock (something I have never, ever seen done in my life), and it does not result in her staying off her stock, is that a punishment? If I asked the positive reinforcement operant conditioning trainers on these Boards to answer that question in a PM to me, without consultation with anyone else, I bet roughly half would say yes and half would say no. If you take a step toward your dog and hold up your arm to teach her to say off her stock, and that does result in her staying off her stock, is that a punishment? Is the second more "punitive" than the first? Is it meaningful in the real world to class both of these approaches together as "punitive methods" or "positive punishment," even if they both resulted in the dog staying off her stock? Do they have enough in common to make that a useful category? I just don't think so. In legal language, I'd say its prejudicial effect outweighed its probative value.

 

I would have to say that sheepdog training as commonly conducted blends correction and reward so fully that it would be impossible to say that one predominated over the other. They work together -- yes/no, give/take, pressure/release. At its best it's almost a dance. I'm actually surprised by your example of the SAR trainer using punitive methods, because all the SAR trainers and bomb detection trainers I've known have used mostly positive reinforcement methods -- ball drive and the like. I don't know much about training hunting dogs, although I think shock collars are commonly used. Shock collars are very much looked down on among the good sheepdog trainers I know. One of their concerns (one among many) would be not wanting to "harden" our dogs, who are so wonderfully sensitive, responsive and biddable, to the point where after generations of selection for those that could stand up to that type of training they might be as dulled as the goldens you mention. The seeing eye dog organization I'm familiar with trains pretty traditionally with both rewards and corrections (verbal corrections like "Phooey" and leash corrections), but setting things up so there will be more praise than correction.