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WildFlower
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I read it and didn't like her ideas, myself. I actually sold the book before finishing it.

What were the ideas you disagreed with? I did a web search...from what little I could see, her ideas didn't seem to be particularly amazing or unusual. I tend to be turned off whenever someone talks about 'alpha'. It is one of those buzz words that I think people use without understanding. She also didn't seem to want to share her ideas without getting a purchase from you first. She seemed like Milan, from what little I know of his stuff (read one book, never saw his shows). But what caused you to drop the book?

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I've read her book and for the most part found it interesting and liked it. The only thing similar to CM is the importance of you being seen as the leader by your dogs at all times. She doesn't go about it in the same way. Her method is somewhat simplistic, but seems to work in many different situations in her book. What I found interesting, is her idea that you have to reestablish your leadership everytime you come back from being away from your dogs. That includes not only coming back from work, but also if you've been in another room in your home with the door closed. She does this by ignoring the dogs until they settle, for a min. of 5 min. or longer if that's what it takes. The rest of her book is not new or unusual. The typical eat before they eat... don't play tug, you initiate interaction sort of thing. I think you have to take into consideration the personality of your dog before implementing anything. My dogs usually eat at the same time as I do and sometimes before. I play tug with Jedi because he likes it and he does win alot. Neither of these things have hurt my leadership status. I do however, give them permission to eat and decide when games begin and end. I have implemented the ignoring for a few minutes thing, and it has helped our home life. So that's my opinion. :rolleyes:

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Thanks I appreciate the responses!

 

My mom is by nature a very submissive person, so I think that the Dog Listeners approach is more comfortable for her to use than something like the Dog Whisperer. She is of course, not blindly following this book to the tee or anything like that.

 

I keep telling her to sign up for this board but she's afraid that she will become more of an addict that me! :rolleyes:

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  • 1 year later...

I'm reading this book just in these days and also I think it's somewhat simplistic, in fact it reduces almost any situation to a leadership problem, doesn't matter if the dog pulls on leash, bites, won't come back or gets anxious, it surely can solved by reestablishing his position in hierarchy; btw, a thing can work even if we can't understand how or why and the thing of ignoring when I come back home seems to work well.

I think it would be a good starting point to manage our relationship with dogs as far as we integrate with a training program.

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I am an avid reader, I read everything and anything

I think I managed the first chapter of her book before I got bored!

I have also heard of people using trainers of hers and the methods made the dogs v dipressed

I think there is too much out there about how to reduce your dogs status, I am fed up of hearing things like 'he was snapping at kids again today, no more sofa for him' Train the behaviour you want dont expect by eating first your dog is going to know how to act in all situations

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Forgot to add

I believe that people do sometimes see some positive effects of these methods - but not because you are reducing the rank

If you ignore your dog till it is calm you are teaching it that attention only happens if it is calm, it has to use its brain and control its impulses

Waiting at the door teaches frustration tolerance

and all these things are you training and interacting with your dog, the more you train your dog the smarter it gets and the more they want to work with you, some of the people doing these things havent taught their dogs ANYTHING before so any training will improve its behaviour

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I think there is too much out there about how to reduce your dogs status

 

Excellent point!

 

If dog ownership really had to be about spending copious amounts of time and energy on communicating to my dog that he is "lower than me", I would be far too annoyed to have a dog! :rolleyes:

 

I am deeply grateful that there are other options that suit my own way of living in my own household with my own dogs!

 

If I teach my dog to wait at the door it is to assist the dog in developing self control. If I teach him to wait patiently to be served his food, it's to teach common good manners. If I teach my dog to walk on a loose leash it is to keep my arm from being pulled in all directions. If I teach my dog to wait to be invited onto the furniture or get off on cue, it is for self control, good manners, and practical uses (like being able to get on the futon when three dogs are parked there). If I teach my dog to ignore cars, it is for safety.

 

To me that's just more natural and normal. The whole "lower the dog's status" to "fix" every "problem" notion is something that I have little use for. That's not to say that there aren't appropriate times to be a leader who provides clear structure. Providing clear structure and "lowering the dog's status" are not one in the same.

 

I am not commenting on this particular book per se. Just on the whole "lower the status" culture that runs so rampant in pet dog training right now. I know it's popular and it appeals to a lot of people, but as pammyd pointed out, it really is not the be all end all solution to everything. And it is definitely not for everyone.

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I would have to disagree, I see it being far "trendier" lately for pet people to use "positive only" methods. The main pet store chains are passing out clickers like candy. I see the same trend with parenting children and so forth. Wanting to be a "friend" and not an authoritive figure.

 

I would agree that the whole"alpha" thing and "lowering the dogs status" does get old, but alot of pet owners/dogs can benefit from showing there dog strong leadership skills. This can be AS simple as being consistent with manners and limits or, depending on the dog, a more authoritative approach may be needed.

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I find that because I have always been consistent, mean what I say and have always taken a "no nonsense" approach with my dogs, I have never needed to use any sort of "alpha" techniques with my dogs. It seems to be people seek these methods out AFTER they are having problems!

 

I do however, practice a "settle" with my pups where they are on there side, hardly any kind of "alpha rolling" tho! LOL!!

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I would have to disagree, I see it being far "trendier" lately for pet people to use "positive only" methods. The main pet store chains are passing out clickers like candy. I see the same trend with parenting children and so forth. Wanting to be a "friend" and not an authoritive figure.

 

I don't find this in my area. Around here dominance based training is very much in fashion. Like so many other things, this just might vary from region to region.

 

I would never say that clickers should be handed out without good solid instruction on how to use them properly. But I'm definitely seeing many more "pet people" attempting dominance based training than I am people using clickers improperly. The vast majority of my own students come in with no clue how to use a clicker (that doesn't last long). Which, I will say, is definitely preferable than if they were to come in using it improperly. But even that can be improved through good instruction.

 

I would agree that the whole"alpha" thing and "lowering the dogs status" does get old, but alot of pet owners/dogs can benefit from showing there dog strong leadership skills. This can be AS simple as being consistent with manners and limits or, depending on the dog, a more authoritative approach may be needed.

 

There is nothing antithetical to being an effective leader when using a reinforcement based approach. Structure, clarity, consistency, and appropriate authority all have a place in a reinforcement based approach. I know that the stereotypes say different, but stereotypes are just that - stereotypes. :rolleyes:

 

I find that because I have always been consistent, mean what I say and have always taken a "no nonsense" approach with my dogs,

 

We're just different. I find that a healthy dose of nonsense has it's place in my household. :D The dogs have their foibles and we laugh at them. I've found it's a pretty nice way to live.

 

Not all styles of leadership suit all people. A "no nonsense" approach would be way too rigid for my taste. And yet, though quite a bit of "nonsense", it is entirely possible to train mannerly dogs. They learn to come when they are called, wait for their meals, put up with showers and nail clippings, walk on leashes without pulling my arms off, get on and off the furniture on cue (in our house, we want the dogs on the furniture), wait at the door to be released out, to jump up when we want hugs and stay off when we want them off, etc. etc. etc.

 

I've found that the key is to take the time to help the dog learn the household structures in a manner that is clear. Thought, patience, and good humor go a long way toward making this process, which does take a good deal of work, a memory to treasure throughout the dog's lifetime.

 

Different styles suit different people. There are a lot of approaches that work, and there are a good many of those that do not involve a constant effort to reduce the dog's status.

 

It seems to be people seek these methods out AFTER they are having problems!

 

These are the sort of people that I usually work with. It is a true privilege to be able to show them some alternatives.

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Kinda funny, unfortuntely the hundreds of people that walk through the doors at the training school I work at come from Petco, Petsmart or a "positive only" training place, treats, clicker and gentle leader in hand....and a completely outta control dog.

 

It's like you always say - when you want to learn to do something well, you should seek out a mentor who has been successful at what you want to do.

 

I wouldn't go to Petco or Petsmart to find a truly accomplished reinforcement based trainer to work with.

 

As far as "positive only" training places - quality of instruction will vary, just as it does with correction based places.

 

For someone who does not know how to train through reinforcement, quality instruction is essential. :D

 

From my perspective, it's kind of funny the people that walk into my class with completely out of control dogs. Once they learn how to use the clicker and treats, the dogs are under control.

 

I know you are completely convinced that reinforcement based training that excludes correction cannot work. I know it can. We could go back and forth on that endlessly, but in the end what you think doesn't really change what I know. :rolleyes:

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Kirstine, you make me laugh and smile at the same time, your dogs must be so happy

I have rules for my dogs but I also try and understand them, I choose what behaiours I want and the ones I dont want and I train for it

I want my dogs on a loose lead, but I dont want plodding robots, I like them to sniff and look and grin at me. When they do something I didnt want I have to figure out why that happend and what I can do to prevent it happening in the future, they are v well mannered but they also make me laugh every day, I like them jumping up on me, they sleep on my bed, I sometimes feed them from my plate cos thats what I chose to do, but they come when called drop food when I ask, get off the bed or sofa if I ask

I prefer to look for the good rather than spend my days figuring out how to suppress the bad and show my dog I am the boss

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  • 3 weeks later...

Bin the book now.

 

Jan Fennell jumped on a bandwagon that had already rolled years ago, repackaged the old dominance theory/pack rules stuff under her own label and marketed it well. (Unfortunately the bandwagon is back in town with CM.)

 

People like rules - it saves them having to think for themselves.

 

Pam

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I certainly dont live by the dominance thing. I do teach my dog manners, they are crate trained and they wait for their food etc but honestly I just enjoy having fun and training with them.

 

All this eating before they do etc, they can wait at the gates and doors if I ask them to if safety is an issue, but usually they go through first while I shut it behind us, I have never bothered with any of that stuff, doesnt suit my lifestyle and doesnt seem to have harmed them. They cuddle on the couch, my oldest is allowed to sleep on my bed etc.

 

I train with toys, treats, voice, clickers sometimes. I reinforce heavily the behaviour that I want and it seems to work well with eager dogs trying to work out what please me. I would describe myself as a postive trainer and none of my dogs are out of control and they all heel beautifully on the lead. Even my elderely mum is confident enough to walk them on her own on lead around the streets, if I am away and they stay with her.

 

I have a brace of dogs filled with enthusiasm and I love it when they greet me enthusiastically when I come home from work. The stick their noses on my hand, wiggle their bodies and leap around in joy, it is one of lifes pleasures and I look forward to it. It seems to strengthen our bond and their willingness to learn and behave rather than disrupt it.

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