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Breeding farm dogs


Pam Wolf
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A friend and I were talking about the genetic state of working Border Collies and the influence of popular sires on narrowing the gene pool. We decided thate is a predjudice against purchasing dogs from 'farm' lines' or breeding to/from such dogs because of difficulties of selling pups.

 

My question is : would you purchase a farm bred dog? What would you look for and what would turn you definitely away from such breedings. (all of this is assuming the dogs handle stock well)

 

Would you choose a nice working farm dog over the big trial winner? Would you buy a pup from this sort of breeding?

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Interestingly enough, I think quite a few imported dogs are farm-bred dogs. A handler in the UK who sells to the US market will see a good farm dog and buy it, and offer it for sale, perhaps just in general on his website, or perhaps to a particular US person whom he thinks it would suit.

 

Personally, I would absolutely buy a good farm dog, if I thought the dog -- or its parents, if it were a puppy -- showed good natural ability and had taken training well. The catch is that I'm far less likely to become aware of a good farm dog in the first place, because it has much less exposure than a trial dog.

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I agree with Eileen. FWIW, I have a history of not going for the top trial dogs either, but rather for dogs whose working style I like, so at least from my POV the popular sire thing isn't greatly affecting my personal choices. Like Eileen said, I may not be exposed to working farm dogs as easily as to trial dogs, but by working trials I do get to see a lot of the type of work that is important to me (dogs that are natural workers, good outrunners, who approach their stock well at the top), and since I often don't know the outcome of the trial, I am less influenced by that than by what I see when setting sheep.

 

That said, if I knew someone with a farm dog that I liked I wouldn't hesitate to buy offspring from that dog (assuming I liked both sire and dam well enough). One thing I find appealing about farm dogs is that generally they are the sort of dog who does the job without a lot of direction, assuming that the owners aren't big trial trainers; that is, such dogs may be more likely to be "out of the box" workers who didn't require exceptional training skills from the human to get them up to a good working standard. <--JMO.

 

J.

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My biggest issue with farm bred dogs is the "farm". Does the farm provide sufficient diveristy in work to really assess the natural ability of the dog and the breeding program on that farm. I suspect in the UK most farm bred working dogs are on farms with sufficient diversity in the work to assess the natural ability of the dog.

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I agree with Mark i hear farm/ranch dog I never know if that means a few chores on broke livestock or real work on large numbers of un dogged stock. Sorry to be cynical but you look around the net and there are so many breeders claiming ranch dogs and then showing video of dogs working what are obviously not commercial level livestock.

 

Even worse they are usually harassing stock...ie letting puppes maul young lambs allegedly to show they will grow up and be working dogs or moving dead broke stock around a small pen.

 

Many dog handlers are interested in ranch dogs if the work is there and the pedigree is solid, as in filled with well respected trial and ranch dogs.

 

Just like in most cases saying a dog won such and such a trial often means nothing, so does adding the tag "ranch dog" to a dog.

 

Sadly both are often gimmicks of self promotion and used to sell puppies, especially in the age of the computer.

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Well, about everybody in Icelands stockdog oranization is a farmer, so in that sense every stockdog here is "farm bred".

The gene pool is refreshed from time to time with imported dogs, those are usually (expensive) open level dogs. The nature of stockwork here is very demanding by the way; gathering free range sheep in autumn, this means nobody with trained stockdogs only works his own dogged sheep.

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I guess i don't think there is a " prejudice against purchasing dogs from 'farm' lines' or breeding to/from such dogs because of difficulties of selling pups."

 

Unless you are producing too many puppies, or one of the parents is purported to be proven but the other is clearly not.

 

If somebody has trouble selling the pups they should not have breed the dogs, or better yet would have known the wanting of a pup from such a breeding prior to making the breeding.

 

I look around the net a fair amount and of course know a fair number of ranch and trial people. I think there is a high demand as to pups from a true well breed ranch dog/bitch. If you add dogs in that dog/bitch line that also trial( at a high level) then you can sell those pups any day.

 

Of course most those folks dont mass produce.

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One thing I find appealing about farm dogs is that generally they are the sort of dog who does the job without a lot of direction, assuming that the owners aren't big trial trainers; that is, such dogs may be more likely to be "out of the box" workers who didn't require exceptional training skills from the human to get them up to a good working standard. <--JMO.

 

J.

 

You could be right, at least from the answers I've got from people I know who work on farms with sheep about how much training the dogs they work with get.

 

If a dog doesn't perform adequately without much human input it's often sold on pretty quickly and another brought in to try.

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That said, if I knew someone with a farm dog that I liked I wouldn't hesitate to buy offspring from that dog (assuming I liked both sire and dam well enough). One thing I find appealing about farm dogs is that generally they are the sort of dog who does the job without a lot of direction, assuming that the owners aren't big trial trainers; that is, such dogs may be more likely to be "out of the box" workers who didn't require exceptional training skills from the human to get them up to a good working standard. <--JMO.

 

I agree with what has been said but, it's hard to know when a good farm dog is out there unless that farmer is getting his dog out and about. I do know allot of people round here that will take their chances on those farm dogs.

 

The above quote has me wondering, again....do you think you can have great "out of the box" workers as great trial dogs too? A dog that does beautiful without much direction, does it do as well as a trial dog knowing how much pressure is put on a trial dog compared to a farm dog.

 

I've been thinking about trying to go to a few trials this summer, been a long time, Dew has maybe been to 3 or 4 trials her whole life. She is 6.

Dew and I are a wonderful team here, I don't have to say much nor does she worry to much about me getting on her. So now I have to start getting her to really "listen" instead of just working. I think it's going to be harder since we've been doing so much that requires little to no commands.

 

I know, lots of peopls say treat your farming chores as if you were at a trial, but I find, in the thick of lambing and managing the farm, as hard as I try to do just that, i don't. Lazy I guess.

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If somebody has trouble selling the pups they should not have bred the dogs, or better yet would have known the wanting of a pup from such a breeding prior to making the breeding.

I think this is crucial, and something that anyone who is *responsible* will take into strong consideration beforehand.

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The above quote has me wondering, again....do you think you can have great "out of the box" workers as great trial dogs too? A dog that does beautiful without much direction, does it do as well as a trial dog knowing how much pressure is put on a trial dog compared to a farm dog.

Obviously I believe it or I wouldn't have said it. ;) What I really mean is a natural worker--one that has a natural feel for stock, thinks for itself (in a good way), approaches stock and stockwork sensibly, and so on. Such dogs might not want micromanaging, but that doesn't mean that can't take the pressure of trial training. At least in my opinion. (I'm not referring to the type of dog who learns the routine at home and looks stellar doing it; I'm referring to dogs who are bred to not require a ton of handling to get good work out of them.)

 

J.

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If somebody has trouble selling the pups they should not have breed the dogs, or better yet would have known the wanting of a pup from such a breeding prior to making the breeding.

 

Let's say you live on a relatively isolated farm, have a really good working bitch and you breed her. How do you have the whole litter sold ahead of time if you haven't trialed her? If lots of people haven't seen her work, no one will be calling asking for her pups. Sort of a catch 22 there.

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Let's say you live on a relatively isolated farm, have a really good working bitch and you breed her. How do you have the whole litter sold ahead of time if you haven't trialed her? If lots of people haven't seen her work, no one will be calling asking for her pups. Sort of a catch 22 there.

 

No really.....I know a number of ranchers who live in remote areas who have earned the respect of their neighbors for the quality of the work their dogs do and then the word spreads.....and there is demand for their pups.

 

 

There are some who are just too eager to breed for the wrong reasons.

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I know people who don't trial and breed litters out of excellent dogs every few years. While they have the respect of other local farmers and their dogs are in demand locally, there are only so many farms that need dogs. I could potentially see them running out of homes if they tried to keep a bloodline going. If the bloodline is good, do you stop breeding because the local market isn't as strong as it used to be?

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We are going to do a breeding with my husband's open dog to a local farmers dog. Now, he does have 2500 ewes and about 4000 lambs. The farmer has just started trialling and his dogs look like crap on the field. Mainly because he doesn't know all of the "ins and outs" of trialling. The dog was natural and easy and manages a lot of animals.

 

I haven't advertised the litter (nor am I doing so here) but they are all going to local working farms with the exception of one or two. We'll see how many she has. My trialling compatriates say..why would you breed to him, he doesn't let go of his eye etc on the trial field. But really when is the last time he worked 3 sheep.

 

Sometimes I would like to see "just a trial dog" move 800 ewes down the road to another pasture while not allowing them on the lawn etc.

 

We'll see how this goes; His sire, and their littermates are successful trial dogs out west and related dogs have done well

 

We do a disservice if we don't look at the farm dogs but I agree with Mark, they must have diversity in their work, not 25 dog broke ewes, to and from the barn

 

Cynthia

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If you had the choice between a trial bred dog, bred to a big name trial dog would you purchase that over the natural good feel good working farm dog. Speaking of farm dogs with the same (or better ability, just not as well trained/handled), dogs that have enough work. and if so what are your reasons?

 

This has nothing to do with anyone in particular selling pups BTW, just a discussion

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I am a real fan of the out-of-the-box natural dog, like my Celt. I have cattle (pretty docile in general) that work well off a dog that is respectful, particularly when there are calves involved.

 

Dan is not an out-of-the-box dog and in many hands, I think he would have been down the road a long time ago. But, with the help of Mark and Renee, Kathy Knox, and (especially) Anna Guthrie, he is a useful dog on the farm - and his strong points just happen to be things that Celt lacks.

 

I almost never have any form of "training" livestock here and it's all on-the-job training. The fences are simple two-strand electric so I can't have a dog that shoves cattle into the fence (unless I need him shoving them *back* into the fence).

 

A dog with natural feel for his stock is the kind of dog that I enjoy working with the most. When Celt, who was 10 in November, is ready to retire, I would like to have another dog very much like him - easy to start, fast-learner, sensitive to his stock, respectful to his stock but brave. If that was likely to be a pup from a particular farm/ranch breeding (say, some litter that Lana or Elizabeth or Geri or Julie or Mark would recommend), sure, I'd gladly consider that.

 

A lot of trial dogs, I believe, are what they are largely because of the training and handling that shapes their inherent abilities. The dog that can do real farm or ranch work with a lot of natural feel and thought, is the kind of dog that would probably work best for someone like me, just a small-time farmer with need for a helping hand.

 

The dog/bitch that can do both, real farm/ranch work and trial, would be a bonus and I would surely not mind a pup from that kind of dog.

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For those who said it would depend on the traits of the dogs in particular, two dogs being fairly close and both a good match, would you choose the big name trial dog over the farm dog and if so why?

Well that is to me kind of obvious, the farm dog of course.

I assume these hypothetical dogs are of similar quality (and working style, character, etc), and the farm dog will no doubt be a lot cheaper.

As I don´t have any breeding ambitions I don´t care for the big name trail´s dog reputation, that might be a more important factor for breeders.

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Both of mine are out of farm/ranch dogs, because a farm dog is what I needed. One of them could potentially be something more, the grandparents trial. But I don't know if I'll ever get him there. But I wouldn't breed my farm dogs and if I could have found something better at the time I would have gotten it. I paid enough for one of them on a neuter contract that I should have gotten a puppy out of a trial dog.

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